Ontario Tenant Moveout Notice & screening questions

Ontario Tenant Moveout Notice & screening questions

Saint Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes

We're new to the landlord thing and I've just had my tenant put in his notice. Both his lease and the law state that he must give 60 days notice, however, he has only given 30 days notice. He was the previous owner's tenant, so he only paid a $250 security deposit when he moved in. For his June rent, he's just given me his rent minus the $250. I want to do something, but I'm not really sure that there is anything I can do besides try my best to get a good tenant in there quickly. I've thought about giving him an N4 or something, but is there really a point? By the time anything happens, he'll be long gone.  Thoughts?

My second question is to do with tenant screening. Our property is in St. Thomas, Ontario, which is a smaller town, but is very blue collar and tends to have a lot of lower income renters. A lot of the posts on here say that a good screen is that the prospective tenant should have 3x the rent as their monthly income and that you should just state that in your ad to weed out people who don't qualify. I really want to do this because it makes sense financially, but is there ever a time when you shouldn't do that? Since I've added that to my add, I've had zero responses (however, I'm not being very patient). Does anyone have experience in nicer places located in lower income areas? 

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Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
10y

@Nathan Miller you have no idea what crazy is until you've read the Ontario Residential Tenancy Act, and even worse some Landlord and Tenant Board case history. Ontario Human Rights Counsel is up there, too.

The reasoning for it being a form of discrimination is that a trust fund kid with no income would be left out. Or a retiree who has no car and lives alone - with 2k/mo income a retiree could easily pay for a 1k/mo apartment. 

I personally agree that 3x is a silly HARD requirement for those reasons, but I don't think it should be backed up with $25k penalties for human rights violations.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    Hey Kristina,

    I am 90% sure that now that you have accepted the short rent, you have basically okayed it. If you get a renter in place (which you plan to do at a higher price) then you don't have "damages" and have no right to keep extra money.

    Take the 3x income rule out of your ad. In Ontario that is considered discrimination.

    My answers sound so absurd, but that's the LTB and OHRC for you.

  • Saint Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    So frustrating!!! I'm going to blame the fact that I'm 6 months pregnant and stressed out for my vengeful thoughts. :)

    I took it out last night because I was impatient over not getting any replies. I got one and it was really more of a reminder to add that the tenant pays hydro. I'll see how today goes and I might redo the ad entirely just so people who have been looking come back and look at it. 

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    Let me take back one part here... the short rent would only be denied by LTB. It doesn't hurt to show them the law and demand the rent.

  • Saint Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    I told him about the law and that it specifically states that in his lease and all he said was, "what, are you going to take me to court?" Maybe that's why I want to do something so much....it's just annoying to know that you really have no control. I think I just need to let it go and get it rented. 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    As a experienced landlord I always file.

    A N4 is the most useless of applications. All it does is allow a tenant a 14 day grace period.

    There is a guaranteed method to collect, the LTB will uphold your application, and you will get your money.

    Based on the fact that a tenant is required to give 60 days notice he has no right to pay June less $250. If you file immediately you will be within your legal rights.

    File a L9 immediately. Make sure you ask for the filing fee to be paid by the tenant, continue looking for a new renter for July and have proof for the hearing that you tried. The amount on the form you claim for is the additional $250 for June and all of July. When you win the board will deduct the $250 deposit from the total he will owe.

    You will win and depending on whether you rent for July or not you will get all money owed including the filing fee. If he does not pay you roll the ruling over into a automatic small claims court application, no hearing required, and he will also be required to pay all those costs as well.

    Landlords in Ontario need to learn the value of the L9 as it is they only application you are guaranteed to win and the tenant always pays your fees.

    Do not waste your time and money on a N4/L1 you will not win and you will lose your application fee money.

    Income source or amount may not be "officially" used for screening so can not be posted in the add. You of course do unofficially use them to screen. You should include in the add that you thoroughly screen including pulling credit reports.

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    @Thomas S. okay, if he's going to be a dick about it... I'm sure a court order would feel great!

    And yes... don't publicly advertise that you discriminate, but for goodness sake discriminate hard!

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    And yes... don't publicly advertise that you discriminate, but for goodness sake discriminate hard!

    Congratulations you are a member of the professional landlords of Ontario club..

    The Ontario RTA and LTB make it impossible to operate our business any other way and the government is 100% responsible for how we are forced to protect out business interests. Landlords that do not quickly adopt this mentality are targets for the vast number of professional tenants in Ontario.

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y
  • Nathan MillerPro Member
    Property Manager · Grants Pass, OR · Member since 2009 · 429 posts · 201 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Matt Geerts:

    Take the 3x income rule out of your ad. In Ontario that is considered discrimination.

    That is simply CRAZY!!  Unbelievable that any government would consider the ability to actually make enough money to pay rent discrimination.  Is this really true?

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    @Nathan Miller you have no idea what crazy is until you've read the Ontario Residential Tenancy Act, and even worse some Landlord and Tenant Board case history. Ontario Human Rights Counsel is up there, too.

    The reasoning for it being a form of discrimination is that a trust fund kid with no income would be left out. Or a retiree who has no car and lives alone - with 2k/mo income a retiree could easily pay for a 1k/mo apartment. 

    I personally agree that 3x is a silly HARD requirement for those reasons, but I don't think it should be backed up with $25k penalties for human rights violations.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    The Ontario government makes it clear that as long as the income is enough to cover the monthly rent you can not reject on the grounds of income.

    If the rent is $1000/month and the applicants total income is $1000/month you can not reject the applicant based on income. 

    I do applicants a huge favour and reject them based on my income standards not the governments. Our regulations give landlords no option but to discriminate. Then when a tenant goes bad the LTB holds us responsible for having poor screening policies and deny our eviction requests. 

  • Saint Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    So, I've got my L9 form filled out and will file it first thing in the morning. Thanks for the tip! I'm a teensy bit concerned that he's going to retaliate in some form, but I guess I have to take that risk. 

  • Saint Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    The plot thickens....  I didn't read the notice right away because I was a bit annoyed, but now that I have, he has had it written by a paralegal at the St. Thomas Advocacy Centre "Moving People Out of Poverty." It's stating that he's willing to forgo any yearly interest accumulated on his last month's rental deposit accumulated during his 3 years there. Thoughts on filing the L9 now??  

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Thomas S.:

    As a experienced landlord I always file.

    A N4 is the most useless of applications. All it does is allow a tenant a 14 day grace period.

    There is a guaranteed method to collect, the LTB will uphold your application, and you will get your money.

    Based on the fact that a tenant is required to give 60 days notice he has no right to pay June less $250. If you file immediately you will be within your legal rights.

    File a L9 immediately. Make sure you ask for the filing fee to be paid by the tenant, continue looking for a new renter for July and have proof for the hearing that you tried. The amount on the form you claim for is the additional $250 for June and all of July. When you win the board will deduct the $250 deposit from the total he will owe.

    You will win and depending on whether you rent for July or not you will get all money owed including the filing fee. If he does not pay you roll the ruling over into a automatic small claims court application, no hearing required, and he will also be required to pay all those costs as well.

    Landlords in Ontario need to learn the value of the L9 as it is they only application you are guaranteed to win and the tenant always pays your fees.

    Do not waste your time and money on a N4/L1 you will not win and you will lose your application fee money.

    Income source or amount may not be "officially" used for screening so can not be posted in the add. You of course do unofficially use them to screen. You should include in the add that you thoroughly screen including pulling credit reports.

     I can't vote for you again lol.  Now I understand why you're such a hard a**.  Wow, and people think California is tenant-friendly.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    File the L9 the same. Make sure you read the instructions and fill it out exactly as instructed. Tenants can fill out LTB forms with invisible ink if they choose but if a landlord makes even the tiniest error the application will be denied.

    Remember when you go to the hearing be organised, bring all the evidence such as lease, apt. add, termination notice etc, and memorise the facts. 

    You tenant, if he shows up, will have a free duty council lawyer, you will not but do not let this bother you. Your case is straight forward and simple.  And remember to ask not only for rent owed but also the filing fee.

    If your tenant decides to pay you before the hearing he still owes you the $170 filing fee. I have had to take tenants to the board for only the fee in the past.

    Ontario Canada is the most tenant friendly jurisdiction in North America. The mandate of our Landlord Tenant Board, originally called the Tenant Protection Board, is to not evict. The adjudicators have the authority to ignore their own regulations to deny landlord applications.  

    If you do a google search under Nightmare tenant Nina Willis you will get an idea of how our system works. 

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    Kristina,

    Don't worry about the interest thing. It is just a way for last month's rent to keep up with rising rent. He owes you a full month minus a couple dollars.

    This is all in the RTA, by the way. Print off a copy for bathroom reading.

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    @Kristina Schmitt You mentioned "Moving People Out Of Poverty"... is this person employed, or living on government assistance?

    @Thomas S. can confirm for me, but I believe that you can't enforce any payment order (by LTB or even small claims) against a person who is on any form of government assistance (welfare, disability, refugee...)

    If there is  more than one name on the lease and at least one of them has a job, then you are good to go.

  • Specialist · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2016 · 564 posts · 425 votes
    10y

    @Matt Geerts you can enforce a payment order against people on government assistance. What people mean is that you will likely never receive from these people. For individuals with no assets, the best way to collect would be to garnish their wages (ie: have the court order that a portion of their wages are paid directly to you by their employer until you have been repaid).

    However, government assistance cannot be garnished. This means that if someone is collecting government assistance, or working under the table, and they do not have a reasonable amount of assets, you will likely never see any money from a court order you get.

  • Investor · St. Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2015 · 692 posts · 312 votes
    10y

    @Luc Boiron

    Well, yes, I guess we're muddling terms. By "enforce" I mean "actually get the damn money". A court can certainly give you an order, but with no assets and a non-garnishable income, they are bulletproof. The best you can do is sell the debt to a collection company and hope that one day in the future they inherit some money or stop living off the government.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    The government has deemed welfare recipients as "untouchable".

    They can go to any store buy something on credit stop paying, sell the item and the store has no way of collecting.

    Landlords are smart to not rent to any applicant on government assistance in Ontario. In my opinion 80% are criminals stealing tax payers dollars. They all also have a very high degree of a scenes of entitlement. Most fake depression to collect.

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