Tenant wont sign lease renewal

Tenant wont sign lease renewal

Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes

I just had a lease expire mid September. I had talked with the tenant about renewal and she indicated they would sign the new lease. Nothing in the lease was changed. I met with the tenants...and they refused to sign the lease! They were wanting to look around to move to a town with less snow as tenants husband is in a wheelchair. ( this is in the Sierras, snow level varies with the elevation) The day i met with them I was also waiting on a repair person who was going to line the chimney. That person never showed. (it was a rescheduled appointment). Tenant had a chimney fire last winter and I immediately sent out a chimney specialist to clean and inspect.

I also had my handyman there installing new windows on the kitchen. A week into the month, when the tenant had not paid her rent, I asked again about the lease renewal. (I should point out that we had been discussing it all summer and scheduling repairs, etc) She said " send it, we will sign"....and they didnt. When I inquired about it again, and the rent money, she said they will not sign, the place isnt habitable as it has no heat source! It has two...an oil monitor (with new filters) and the wood stove (common in the area) She refuses to use the wood stove and says she cant afford to buy oil.

I served a 30 day notice which was she claims is invalid as it wasnt signed by me...but for me. 

Today she tells me the place still isnt habitable as the refrigerator quit working. (This is the first I heard of this) and that there is mold in the bathroom and ants. I have a replacement fridge and a pest control person lined up. The bathroom has a new window and was repainted just last year.

Looking into eviction law here in California I see that I can go straight to filing and not bother with any other notices, since the tenancy expired with the expiration of the lease....anybody have experience with this ? (Im hoping that Sue K. chimes in)

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
10y

Tenant has done this before and knows how to work the system.  Your best bet is to hire an attorney.

This is a perfect example of why experienced investors laugh when we see pro forma profit and loss statements that have no expense for vacancy, legal fees, maintenance, advertising, brokerage, depreciation, etc.  

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    I'll tag @Account Closed

  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    Thats my plan for the next lease expiration...but this is a high drama tenant that I dont mind moving along.

  • Investor · Downers Grove, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 955 votes
    10y

    @Steve Vaughan

    Just curious why do you do m-m for your leases? is it easier for you to get them out or raise rent if you need to? 

    @Shelley F. Hope your eviction process goes smoothly. Did your tenant give you issues while renting? or pay late? 

  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    I should also point out that I purchased this house in July of 2015 and had it completely cleaned and painted inside out. Some ongoing repairs too, mostly because the insurance company demanded them...new porch railings, replacing facia boards, etc. As well as installing the new windows. I just got a callback from a pest control guy who is going by to spray.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Tenant has done this before and knows how to work the system.  Your best bet is to hire an attorney.

    This is a perfect example of why experienced investors laugh when we see pro forma profit and loss statements that have no expense for vacancy, legal fees, maintenance, advertising, brokerage, depreciation, etc.  

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    Tenant was only late once in the past year. The tenant , husband and adult son were on the lease, but any time I would be there lots of others appeared to be living there as well .

  • Property Manager · Rockville, MD · Member since 2014 · 287 posts · 29 votes
    10y

    I don't know the CA laws, so this is just feedback on preventative measures.

    First send out lease renewal 2 months in advance. They never get back timely fashion, so send a few reminders. And as you know, they may very well not do what they say, so don't make plans until ink dries. 

    After first 30 days, then make plans for the alternative of them leaving or evicting. Deliver non-renewal and notice to vacate.

    In the last 30 days prepare to clean, market and show to minimize vacancy.

    Leaves you as much in control as possible

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris T.:

    @Steve Vaughan

    Just curious why do you do m-m for your leases? is it easier for you to get them out or raise rent if you need to? 

    @Shelley F. Hope your eviction process goes smoothly. Did your tenant give you issues while renting? or pay late? 

     Hi Chris,

    I start out with leases.  When they expire, they default to month-month if not renewed, and I have never renewed one.  Most completely forget and staying is a non-issue.   Like I mentioned, I have a few m-m'ers that have been with me for over 13 years. 

    I then raise rents a little for everybody effective in April, at tax refund time.  This lease renewal issue I read so much about from folks on here I have never encountered.    

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Just put them on M2M with the same lease conditions, they do not need to sign the M2M is automatic.

    A term lease is a bonus/reward for tenants that have proven to be good and reliable, it benefits the tenant. A M2M benefits the landlord and does not disadvantage a good tenant in any way- same contract but bad tenants can be terminated easily.

  • Investor · Downers Grove, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 955 votes
    10y

    thanks @Steve Vaughan @Thomas S.

    My leases have a M-M clause, but we are usually proactive in resigning our tenants to another lease about 2-3 months before it ends. My perception was always to  be proactive than reactive. Last thing I want is a tenant moving out of winter! 

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris T.:

    thanks @Steve Vaughan @Thomas S.

    My leases have a M-M clause, but we are usually proactive in resigning our tenants to another lease about 2-3 months before it ends. My perception was always to  be proactive than reactive. Last thing I want is a tenant moving out of winter! 

     A lease won't prevent someone from moving out whenever, but it does give you some legal right to the funds the renter should have paid. I have the option of month to month in my lease, but I charge a higher level to compensate for the possibility of someone moving in December. My tenants all just reup their lease when it comes due if they aren't moving for some other reason. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    If I understand it correctly, in California leases dont automatically convert to M2M unless there is wording specifically to that effect. Mine doesnt convert to M2M so the lease expired. She hasnt paid either so I didnt accidentally convert it to M2M. 

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Shelley F., I like the comment about serving them a notice of non-renewal, then a pay or quit, then start the eviction as soon as you can. Keep us posted. I hope it goes smoothly for you.

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Shelley F.

    Have you read the statutes? Have you talked to an attorney? 

  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    Yes, I did consult an attorney and was referred to the appropriate statute in the calfiornia civil code civil code. cc1945 

    I was advised that since I gave advance notice of lease renewal (60 days) and since she had agreed to sign but did not, and that I had not accepted any rent, that the terms of the tenancy had expired. (note...she did not offer to pay rent) To proceed with an unlawful detainer I do not need to serve any notice but proceed directly to file. Its only one of two instances in California where a notice is not required. (I did serve notice)

    As an aside, neighbors of hers tell me she has been packing and moving out.

  • Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    I can understand her reluctance to fill an oil tank when she is planning on moving in a few weeks.  I would give them a few very safe electric space heaters until they buy their oil.

  • Real Estate Investor · Plumas county, CA · Member since 2011 · 150 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    I totally agree about the reluctance to buy heating oil when they are moving...but when she refused to sign the lease one of her arguments was 'habitability'. No heat source. House has two, plus her space heaters.

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Your in California not Oklahoma, get s lawyer and serve her correctly, Cali is a terrible state for trying to do your own evictions
  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y

    Is the tenant complaining verbally or in writing . if verbally you can deny that she told you about the refrigerator etc .    

  • Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joseph Young:

    I can understand her reluctance to fill an oil tank when she is planning on moving in a few weeks.  I would give them a few very safe electric space heaters until they buy their oil.

     I strongly disagree with this comment.  We had a property were the tenant refused to fill the oil tank and simply used electric space heaters.  It was not a sufficient heating source, which caused the pipes to freeze and burst.  It cost us thousands.  If the tenant refuses to use the oil heating, remove the tenant i.e. eviction or cash for keys.  

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Matthew Paul that is called lying.
  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    Matthew Paul that is called lying.

     Its like politics , its not lying ,its just not recalling a conversation .      

  • Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    Oh the space heaters most definitely won't be enough to heat the house.  That is not the point, we only want to refute the claim that the house has no heat source.  That is in no way meant to be a long term solution.  You simply cannot win with this tenant, the house is too cold to live in, but too hot to keep food from spoiling without a fridge.  

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Matthew Paul I'm not a liar or a politician.

    If the tenant makes a verbal request or report I simply remind them to put it into writing before I address it. Then I do my job as a good landlord, whatever that may be.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Shelley F. Sorry for being MIA.  Had stuff going on...

    I'm confused as to your timeline and notices, etc.

    You gave 60 days notice to terminate the lease when it expired?  Is that what your notice said?  Did it say it will expire if you don't sign another one?  Just wondering if the termination was clear.

    You said the current lease expired mid-September, then you said they were one week into the next month and hadn't paid.  What date are we talking about here?  The third week of Sept?

    When did you give them 30 days notice to move?  To give you a better opinion, I need a clear timeline.

    Whenever a tenant has lived in a unit in CA for 12 months or longer, you must then give 60 days notice.  So, any 30 day notice after their lease expired wouldn't be valid.

    My opinion as to her claims for inhabitability, is that she's got no claim there.

    But, the good news is, that if she hasn't paid rent, you can still file eviction for nonpayment of rent.  Not knowing what your notices said exactly, I think this would be your easiest eviction.  That's enforceable no matter if she's a holdover tenant or not.

    I'm just afraid that by giving her 30 days notice to move, you actually created a month to month agreement, because it would have given them permission to stay 30 days, if you understand my meaning.  It wouldn't be effective as a termination letter because it would have to be 60 days.  But, I think it could be used to establish a M2M agreement.

    I'm thinking your safest bet is to give them a written 60 day notice to terminate, and serve them with an eviction for nonpayment of rent at the same time.  That would save you on attorney's fees.  

    And if she chooses not to use the wood stove or the oil heater, that's her problem.  You have provided two sources of heat, a wood stove and an oil heater.  You're not required to pay for their heat - just provide a source for it.  And they knew the heat sources when they moved in, and have used them for the last year.  

    I love the Nolo California landlord book.  It was my bible and I used the contracts and forms that come with it.  They're easy to understand for landlords and tenants, too.  In case you don't already have it:

    http://www.nolo.com/products/the-california-landlo...

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