Fighting back - CSC / Coinmach increased laundry fees by 9.75%

Fighting back - CSC / Coinmach increased laundry fees by 9.75%

Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes

It's no secret to any investors and landlords out there that many laundry rental companies are unscrupulous. Well, here's another example with CSC, who owns CoinMach. Except this time, I'm fighting back. The ROI of this effort is certainly not worth my time even if I win, but enough is enough. We, as investors, can't keep letting these companies bully us around. Companies bullying customers via contract terms is a pet peeve of mine, given my experience leading strategic sourcing teams.

I have a fourplex in California that has a laundry room with washer & dryer managed by CSC / Coinmach.  I got a letter in May, stating that "Beginning this month, you will see an Administrative Fee of 9.75% deducted from your gross collection."  I heard they sent this letter to all their customers.  With a 50/50 revenue split, this means they just shaved off about 20% of my net laundry income.  I read through the agreement to make sure this is not allowed per the contract, and I called them up to ask them about this.  The area manager called me back and said it is totally within their right because there's a clause that states that the payment to me is revenue split "... less any sales, use, property taxes and/or license or occupational fees".  He said this increase qualifies as "occupational fees".  I said the letter sent by CSC clearly indicates that the increase is due to "investments in people, systems, technology and service delivery", and not a fee related to occupying the space.  He said... and this totally cracked me up... "these fees are incurred because we have our equipment in your laundry room."  So, in conclusion, his point is -- Because CSC / Coinmach is in the business of occupying people's laundry rooms and putting equipment in them, any and all business expense qualifies as "occupational fees", and they can increase the fees unilaterally, in any amount, per the agreement.  This argument is just so outrageous that I'm frankly surprised their lawyers bought off on it.

I've led Strategic Sourcing groups for two Fortune 500 companies before, where my sole job was to negotiate contracts with suppliers and service providers and draft contracts with our corporate legal teams, ranging in amounts of up to tens of millions of dollars.  So while I'm not a lawyer, I'm no stranger to contract terms.  From my experience, I also know that the sales managers have zero power to change their legal stance, so it was pointless to argue with him.  Only their lawyers and senior management can change the terms on something that applies to all their customers.  They have a team of highly-paid lawyers, I have logic.  It's a textbook case of David vs. Goliath, but I'm willing to give it a try.  I've already served them a notice of breach of contract and my intent to terminate, we'll see where we go from here.  Depending on their response, I may start an online petition with my fellow investors, all of their customers.  The petition may help me push back on this increase, and all other investors can then use this ruling to either terminate the contract with them to go with someone else, or at least block the increase in fee.  Anyone else interested?

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Professional · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 34 votes
9y

@Ivan Lai What's the cost of switching with the competition? 

Also, what's the contract terms (length, the extent of services provides)?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    @Michelle et al, I'm interested in joining a group action just to fight back on their illegal and immoral action, but my account with them is too small for me to organize any group legal actions, sorry.  Leading a class action lawsuits take up a lot of time and it's time I can't afford.  I'd be happy to join in if someone else takes the lead.  Cheers.

  • Hesperia, CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Sorry for the radio silence, it has been a difficult process and I wanted to ensure CSC is done and gone for good.

    After a 3.5 month battle with CSC/Coinmach, I am happy to have finally had the last of their machines removed from our properties. Unfortunately, it finally came down to giving them an ultimatum to remove their machines, or they would be left on the curb. Their company is an absolute disgrace and cares less about customer experience and service than any other company I have every interacted with.

    Long Story Short;

    After repeated emails and voicemail return call requests directly to their Corporate Counsel (Justin Elliot) with no response, I was finally able to escalate through customer service and my sales rep and get a call from Deziree Benson-Jones, Area Vice President. In my phone call, after laying out the situation and circumstances for my frustration and lack of requested information, particularly the legality of the Admin Fee, she informed me that because I specifically mentioned terminating my contracts due to the Admin Fee (and later due to lack of communication, response and necessary business interactions) that it is the Company's policy for Legal to thus completely ignore any and all communication and not terminate an agreement due to the Admin Fee! When I told her that this didn't seem conducive to a friendly business relationship and that not only common sense, but legally speaking we should be provided with specific clauses as to their justification of the Admin Fee. I informed her that it was especially important given that CSC inherited our contracts from their purchase of Coinmach, and there is nothing in the lease allowing this. Her response was "We feel that we have the right to levy this Administration Fee. If you feel otherwise, you need to seek your own legal counsel and have them review your contract. At that point, if your legal counsel thinks we don't have the right, your legal counsel may contact the legal department to discuss. Short of that, I cannot speak to specific contract clauses and neither will our legal department." I informed her of my shock and surprise at this INCREDIBLY AGGRESSIVE business approach, which she said she could understand my interpretation of, but that is the company's policy.

    Despite finally getting the approval for termination of contract (based on lack of communication and followup), it still took 3 weeks for installation/removal to receive the termination, at which point they attempted to further delay the process by scheduling the removal another 5 weeks away! Terrible, terrible service from all involved in the company.

    What to do if you are in this position?

    1. Contact your rep and customer service to request billing history (to provide for a new company), as well as refunds, returns, vandalism costs and other expenses incurred over the term of your contract. Keep asking for this and use it as your breach of contract when they do not provide it for you.

    2. Contact the organizations you are a part of, for me it was the AOA and CAA (have since dropped CSC's endorsement and sponsorship.

    3. If you want to go after them about the Admin Fee, take them to small claims court and have it settled by the judge, or hire a lawyer to review your contract and contact them. Even if the contract has a clause in it justifying this, it stands to reason you could have the reciprocal right as CA minimum wage has increased, utility costs have increased (anyone's drought rates go back down yet??) and overall costs to provide them with a clean laundry facility for their machines.

    4. Contact Wash Laundry - at least for the High Desert/Inland Empire, I have been very happy since first working with them 9 years ago and slowly converting my legacy (purchased property contracts) over to them. Regardless of who you contact, ensure there are no 5 year auto renewal clauses, no first right of refusal and no administration fees.

    Please keep us posted on your progress!

    Jeff

  • Investor · Danville, CA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Hello all.  I've been exploring legal options against CSC as I feel their "administrative fee" is wholly unsupported in the contract and it is really, in plain terms, just a money grab. I've discussed this with an attorney who agrees that the unilateral 9.75% deduction is, to put it mildly, suspect. His main question to me was whether other CSC laundry leases were structured and worded similarly to the ones I provided him. So, he asked if I could ask other property owners if they might be willing to share their laundry leases for his review. He felt that would best allow him the ability to assess how to move forward. Would any of you be willing to send me a copy of your laundry lease(s) so he could review? Similarly, if any of you are interested in participating in legal action, please let me know. If you message me, I can send you my contact information. Thanks!

  • Angels Camp, CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    8y

    So bottom line, who can I use for Laundry services once I dump CSC? Is there a better service? What % should I expect to get from the proceeds? What type of contract? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Have you tried contacting their competitors? If anybody would know how to get out of an existing contract with the one thats playing games, it would be their competitors. My guess they can tell you whether you have a legal leg to stand on in terms of fighting it or if you're out of luck.

    It seems impossible to believe that their contract would be valid if it gives them the right to charge you anything they want at any time and doesn't allow you to get out of the contract.

    I don't see how that would hold up in court even if thats what they said. 

    Way too onerous from a reasonability test - i.e. Is it reasonable that company A would be able to get into the contract and then set the fee to a million dollars a month?  Isn't that what they're saying they can do?

    Again, my advice would be to check with this crazy companies' competitors. They'll tell you if there's any way to get out of it and, if there is, how.

    One question though. Do any of the other companies out there charge this same pre-revenue split fee? i.e. Would you be any better off going with another company? I think someone just quoted a price on the fee of $19 a month.  

    Quite honestly, if thats all it is, I would just eat it. Ride out the contract. And then drop em.

    They're going out of business any way given how upset some of the people seem to be on the post.

  • Angels Camp, CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    8y

    again, who are the competitors that I should be talking with? Wash? Anyone else?

  • Oakland, CA · Member since 2017 · 11 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    Hi All,

    There are many competitors to WASH & CSC in the Los Angeles region and nationally. In LA, I would suggest Bondy Haney. They are a great family run company. WASH & CSC use to be family run companies that provided great service but they got swallowed by a larger company that bought all the mom and pop companies. Now they are both huge. 

    Google 'Bondy Haney' for their phone number. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    8y

    Kay Kay Realty has filed a class action so we can all join if we want....

    https://www.classaction.org/news/lawsuit-claims-coin-op-laundry-co-csc-serviceworks-owes-landlords-unpaid-revenue-shares

  • Property Manager · Northeast Indiana · Member since 2013 · 46 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    Ive had experience with both WASH and COINMACH.  Neither was good (duh), I ended up finding local appliance companies where our properties are located. The ones I found will install brand new machines, and beat all the contract terms of the big guys and theyll service machines quicker. Look for a local company, seriously one of the best ways I've spent my time lately. 

  • Member since 2018 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    I'm with a family owned and operated company servicing Southern California, so I obviously support a shift to local operators and the mass exodus from WASH and CSC. We receive calls everyday from people irate with the service and accounting issues they've been experiencing with the national companies. We run a Main St. business while they are playing a Wall St. game and frankly, their recent business practices have brought us a steady stream of new customers. 

    As far as fighting back goes, I have heard a few success stories from customers. It seems that if you complain loud enough and often enough to your rep you might have some luck in both ending the fee deduction and getting back the fees they've already taken. In more than one case, they let the customer out of what seemed like a good lease. I hear the hard part is actually getting someone on the phone. 

    The legal analysis I've read above is on point. Their leases don't give them the right to adjust the gross for admin or technology upgrade fees. The "value added" language is meant to address  a specific tax, not a free pass to adjust the gross. The problem is that litigation is lengthy and expensive (especially in California). It's likely more cost effective to wait out a term than sue. If you are stuck in this scenario, remember that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  

    If you find yourself being stonewalled, ignored, or relegated to their endless phone trees, a local vendor may be able to help get you in contact with with your rep or you can try contacting their installations departments. 

    I hope this has been helpful.  I am not sure who gave us the shout out above, but thank you! 

  • Investor · Oak Park, IL · Member since 2014 · 307 posts · 150 votes
    7y

    Any update on this?  I have one washer and one dryer for six units.  CSC ServiceWorks just sent me a letter  stating I have two options (1) they pay me 60% of the revenues above $.72 per machine per day (30x 0.72 x 2= $43.20 a month threshold for the washer and dryer.  Big threshold 

    or

    (2)  I agree to pay $20.66 per month  $41.32 for washer and dryer, or $495.84 per year - and I get to keep all the quarters.  

    They and their predecessor serviced the building since 1987 when I bought it - I never signed a contract.  At these rates, I would be operating at a loss.  I have always looked at providing laundry as a service and convenience to my tenants, not as a income stream, but this is ridiculous.  At these figures, I would be operating at a loss.  

  • Investor · Oak Park, IL · Member since 2014 · 307 posts · 150 votes
    7y

    Are there any updated on CSC Coinmach or CSC Serviceworks?  I just received my check for six months.  My piece of the take is about 15%.  I have just one washer and one dryer in the building.  The contract was signed by the previous owner prior to my purchase in 1987.  I have never had a copy of the contract, and CSC has not returned my calls.  Until now, the laundry service/ profit margin has been OK, not something on my radar.  I want to buy my own machines, collect money and manage service requrests.

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y



    https://www.cscadminfeesettlement.com/

    "The Court has not decided whether the Plaintiffs or CSC should win this case. Instead, both sides agreed to a Settlement. That way, they avoid the risk and expense associated with ongoing litigation, and class members will get benefits sooner rather than, if at all, after the completion of a trial."

  • Member since 2020 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    Here is a link to the class action settlement against CSC. Another Company has a class action against the CEO. 

    https://www.cscadminfeesettlement.com/case-documents/

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    I have 2 questions to ask Class Counsel and left my phone number, but Class Counsel has not called back (There are approximately 70,000 Settlement Class Members).  The first question is whether I should choose Option 1 benefits, or Option 2 benefits (or exclude from class).  CSC collected $727 in admin fees and taxes over 31 months.  There are no other laundry service providers in the area.  So, without consulting an attorney, I don't intend to submit a form to receive Option 1 benefits and will automatically receive option 2 benefits.

    The 2nd question I have is about the compound breach of our lease agreement.  The admin fee and taxes issue is settled.  The split issue is not settled and I must figure how much CSC owes me from this issue.  I'll describe a simple hypothetical case:  If the gross collection was $1,000 in one month, no fees were subtracted and the split terms were 50/50, the amount due the lessor would be $500.  If the company subtracted a 10% admin fee and that was fair according to the lease agreement, the lessor would be owed $450.  If the company subtracted a 10% admin fee and a class action settlement determined that half of the admin fee was fair and half was unfair, the lessor would be owed $450 plus the possibility of receiving a credit from the settlement.  If the company subtracted a 10% admin fee and also arbitrarily and unilaterally changed the split terms to 25/75, and paid the lessor $225, the company would still owe the lessor $225 apart from the class action settlement.  Is this logically correct?

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    After two weeks, Class Counsel did finally return my call.  I was on a long waiting list.

  • Washington DC Region · Member since 2019 · 12 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    How are you determining whether the coin revenue sharing is accurate from these laundry vendors? It sounds like they come and empty the machines, and then cut you a check. So really there's no way to confirm what was collected originally.

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    If there was enough competition among laundry service companies, I could choose one that would provide laundry machines with cycle counters on them. Then my property manager could periodically reconcile the cycle counters with the gross collection amounts, if the property manager would be willing to do that.  Then that information would appear in the monthly financial report.  I am daydreaming about a better world however.  In a simpler time, before CSC bought out Mac-Gray, the monthly gross collection amounts were consistent for 10 years over two automatic lease agreement renewals.

  • Studio City, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 15 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mike Nelson:

    Are there any updated on CSC Coinmach or CSC Serviceworks?  I just received my check for six months.  My piece of the take is about 15%.  I have just one washer and one dryer in the building.  The contract was signed by the previous owner prior to my purchase in 1987.  I have never had a copy of the contract, and CSC has not returned my calls.  Until now, the laundry service/ profit margin has been OK, not something on my radar.  I want to buy my own machines, collect money and manage service requrests.


    Hi Mike, did you ever get resolution on this issue? I have received the same ridiculous "we are changing the payment terms of your contract" letter. Same two options as you.
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