To Evict, Or Not To Evict?

To Evict, Or Not To Evict?

Lonsdale, MN · Member since 2017 · 29 posts · 8 votes

Hello fellow Bigger Pockets members - My name is Kyle and I am a beginning investor in Minneapolis Minnesota (my property is in Anoka county), and I am wondering whether or not I should evict my tenants!

Here is my situation:
I own a Duplex, and I moved into one side and inherited tenants who currently reside in the other side. The tenant situation on the other side has changed multiple times since I've closed on the property and became their new Landlord. The tenants are a family of Mother, Father, and four children (one of which is an adult). When I closed on the property, it was just Father and Son (the eighteen year-old son), but then the Mother and three other Children moved in, but then the Father moved out, and I am left with Mother and four Children. The lease agreement is signed by the Mother and the eldest Child (being that he is an adult). The tenants won't pay rent. I got December's rent, but nothing for January and nothing for February yet. The lease agreement changed when the Father moved out and took his security deposit. It changed such that rent increased slightly because of more people in the space, an addition of a cat in the space, and that they now owe a new security deposit of their own. Late fees of 8% incur three days into the month. The tenants told me that they could not pay the security deposit in full, and asked for payments instead - I said yes, four payments over January February March & April will be fine (their lease is up in December of eighteen). The tenants now owe January's rent, January's late fee, and January's Security Deposit, as well as February's rent, February's late fee, and February's Security Deposit.

They have told me that they have applied for 'Emergency Assistance' through the County (their assistance is through Hennepin County even though they live in an Anoka County property). At first they told me that I need to 'write a letter stating that they were my tenants and include they they were late on rent and by how much.', so I did. Days went by and I asked them where their rent was. They came up with 'It's being approved, I'll call them tomorrow.' Days went by. 'Now they need this.' Days went by. 'Now I need this and I'm getting approved for two months instead of one.' Days went by. 'Now I need this from you, and I'll turn it in tomorrow.' Days went by. 'You should be getting a call.' Days went by, and here we are. Six weeks without any payments of any kind - Should I Evict? Is there any way that I can find out if their Emergency Assistance is legit and will be sending me a check? The tenants keep pushing me off and coming up with excuses, and I have been extremely compliant and patient and cooperative. I want to keep the tenants, I really do, but does anyone have any insight or experience with this sort of matter?

Thank you for reading my long post, I look forward to hearing back from you!

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Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y

@Kyle Baron

The stories change, and this is a creative story, but the MO stays the same. They are staling for time. 

You've waited five weeks to long to begin the eviction; don't wait another day. 

You can stop an eviction in progress, but can't go back in time and start one.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron

    The stories change, and this is a creative story, but the MO stays the same. They are staling for time. 

    You've waited five weeks to long to begin the eviction; don't wait another day. 

    You can stop an eviction in progress, but can't go back in time and start one.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron  I knew from the title of your post that my answer would be Evict. If you have to ask then it is probably Evict.

    Bad things happen to good people all the time and that might be what is happening here, but do you want to take care of everyone and run your business to the ground?

    Would your Mortgage Company or Bank that holds your car loan be sympathetic to you if you missed a payment? That is how you have to view this.

    I have been too soft hearted and gotten further and further behind more than I care to admit.

    They will likely not catch up and you will likely never get this money. So you need to cut your losses and start the eviction. If they can catch up before the eviction completes then great.

    You (and I) have got to treat this like a business and there can be no excuses for not paying on time.

    The electric company would cut off your electricity if you don't make your payment to them no matter what sad story you tell them. These are the facts and it is not easy to be the bad guy but you must treat this like a business or people will take from you and your family if you let them.

    Are there exceptions sure. Will I live by this rule 100%, probably not, but I'm trying to be better as I hope you will too.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Until you start moving to evict and filing appropriate notices they will make thier problem your problem. Be empathetic but clear you need the rent. No rent no housing, you will evict. Friends and family should help them out, not you,you are thier landlord. dont wait.
  • Property Manager · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 380 posts · 167 votes
    8y

    Unless you know them well and are willing to take a loss I think having a set timeframe for payment that is fair and reasonable is always the best way to go.  

    We have many owners and with the number of units (around 1000) have to simply stay on a schedule with written payment plans or evictions (typically the 12th) without a written payment plan that always requires 1/2 down.   

    Many times residents will still redeem and pay the full amount plus court cost and still stay in their unit.    It is a slippery slope if you do not follow this schedule and the stories will continue to get better and more interesting at your expense. 

    We are also still in a great rental market, so likely you can re-rent without a lot of effort or expense.   

  • Bayport, MN · Member since 2018 · 92 posts · 52 votes
    8y

    Welcome rental neighbor! I also own a SFR in Columbia Heights.

    I agree, you need to start the eviction process.  I question the assistance coming from Hennepin County, even though the property is in Anoka County.  With all the people moving in and out, I have a suspicion they are trying to scam the system.  

    I had some people in my house in Columbia Heights, and they tried doing that with me.  They wanted me to write a letter saying someone who wasn't on the lease lived there.  I told them no.  I then received a phone call from Anoka County asking me if someone else lived their.  With other issues I started having with them (this was after they had lived their 9 years) I didn't renew when the year lease expired, but they stayed on a month to month.  After getting a phone call a few years later from the police department about a 12 and 14 year kids that weren't supposed to be living there getting charged with felony terrorist threats, I gave them their notice to move.  


    Also, I am guessing  you are aware of the quarterly landlord meetings that the police department holds.  They can be very educational.  You should receive a post card from the police department to the address you registered with the fire department for your rental license.  Since you said you are new, I suggest you attend them.  They will have lawyers, and other rental professionals come and talk about a lot of different subjects to help you be a better landlord.  The fire department and police department will also have people there that you can talk to if you have questions about the city ordinances on rentals.  Their moto is we want to work with the landlords, not against the landlords.  

    The city has some pretty strict rental property ordinances, but they will also do what they can to help you succeed.

  • Fall RIver, MA · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Evict! Every state has different laws but soon as the rent is missed I get the wheels of eviction turning, granted if it was a long term tenant I might give him a few days. But the stories will always be there, another few years and you will be able to write a sitcom. Good Luck 

  • Rental Property Investor · Edison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 753 posts · 565 votes
    8y
    I would file for eviction tomorrow morning. They are stalling for time. Typically community agencies only help families whom are facing eviction and if they are not in housing court they would not even be eligible. It is unlikely they will pay you but if there is the slimmest chance they can receive help from a community agency having eviction papers will help with that process. If they do not come up with the money, which is likely, at least you have stopped the bleeding and can free up your rental to another tenant whom can pay. Also in the future do not return a security deposit and then rent to someone else in the family. Let them sort it out. And if they can’t and you are going to let someone out of the lease do not allow anyone else to move in without collecting a deposit. It is not worth the risk and it is a sign that they can’t afford the rental which is obviously the case in this situation. Do not be taken in by their stories. Now is the time to file for eviction.
  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    To be totally honest.... you have made quite a few mistakes on this one....you let the security deposit walk out the door and agreed to take payments on a security deposit when the tenant was already in the unit......NEVER agree to take a security deposit on a payment plan....EVER.

    Whenever there is a change in tenants, the lease and any financial arrangements get reset just like a brand new move in....back ground checks, deposits, new signed lease

    As soon as the rent was late, you file notice to evict....NO EXCEPTIONS.... they are playing you.....they are walking all over you. Its all a stall....unless they win some big cash prize, you will never see that $$..

    And WHY do you want to keep these tenants?

    They are playing on your emotions and fear of having to find another tenants....

    Run this like a business.....not a homeless shelter....... start the EVICTION NOW......

  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    8y
    Another option would be to offer them $500 to leave in 7 days, but they sound like the type that do not care if they are evicted so you may just be 7 days behind on eviction. Be sure your license is in order and you properly give them notice etc. Be sure you have already notified them in writing and posted your name and address 30 days prior. (This is one of the ways the tenant rights attorney will try to squash your eviction and buy them even more time). Make sure if you operate a llc that everything is registered properly Do not take any payments after the filing. Be sure the file “John Doe” and “Jane Doe” for anyone in the unit including “residents under the age of 18” (otherwise known as kids, in fair housing laws) I know they are inherited but, come up with criteria for credit, income, etc and write it down. Show it to prospective tenants and NEVER deviate. Verify employment use google not the numbers they give you. Criteria helps reduce your chances or repeating and keeps you compliant with fair housing laws.
  • Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    youve done everything wrong so far. hire a lawyer and evict them. while he does his job, read every word of your landlord tenant laws. you are in over your head
  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    8y

    By the time I was 3/4 way through the post I was certain it was a joke. No way anyone could make every conceivable wrong business decision.

    "I want to keep the tenants, I really do"  

    This was the clincher... wanting to keep a tenant that is never going to pay another dime in rent and is simply waiting to be evicted.

    Funny post......sell your rental property now.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    8y

    Evict. The other option is to evict. Or maybe you could evict. Definitely one of those three.

    Please take this as constructive criticism:

    1. When replacing a tenant, leave the security deposit in place. Never refund it and then ask the new tenant for a deposit, particularly when the new tenant already resides in the property. If the old tenant wants the deposit back and the new tenant needs to pay a deposit, let them work it out amongst themselves. You should always, always, always keep the deposit in place until the lease is terminated and the tenant is out.

    2. Know your state law, build your policy around it, and enforce it. When they missed the rent in January, you should have initiated eviction proceedings. Here's the law for your state. Even if they tell you rent will only be a week late, start the eviction process! If they pay, you can stop the process. It's common for tenants to stall the eviction process by promising to pay next week, in a couple days, or as soon as I get my tax return. It's a lie about 92.6% of the time. It doesn't matter if they actually applied for assistance or not. It doesn't matter if they will get the assistance tomorrow or next week. Start the eviction process immediately!

    3. Your main problem? Compassion in spite of all evidence. They've walked all over you for two months and your response is to be "extremely compliant and patient and cooperative." You're under the impression kindness begets kindness. The truth is, you will continue being kind and they will continue walking all over you because they see you as weak and incompetent. You need to run your business like a business or this will destroy your returns and your desire to build wealth via real estate.

    Not everyone is cut out for real estate. You don't have to be mean. You don't have to be a scrooge. I'm a good, Christian man that will give the shirt off my back to a stranger without hesitation. But my investments are a business and I run them like it. I am fair, honest, and just. If you can't do the same, you should transfer your rental to a property manager that can do the tough work for you.

    A home that rents for $1,000 a month would already cost you $2,000 in lost rent. If you have to evict, that's another $1,000 in lost rent, maybe $500 - $1,000 in eviction costs, plus cleaning and repairs after they move out. So you're looking at $4,000 or more in losses.

    A property manager could have handled all the work for you at a rate of $1,200 a year.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Heidi PliamPro Member
    Attorney, Investor, Syndicator · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 39 votes
    8y

    Call the county immediately for verification of their story.  I've worked with Hennepin to get our tenants emergency assistance, and yes, tenants are disorganized oftentimes so need to go back a couple times.  (But like a prior poster am suspicious of 2-county involvement and excessive delays).   

    Seems like a lot of folks on BP are trigger-happy on evictions, which can make it harder for your tenant to move out without a fight (left with no other options).  Personally, I prefer move-out agreements that are clear & firm but reasonable, rehabilitating tenants whenever possible -- and for critics of move-out agreements, I contend they don't have to put you in a worse-off position than eviction if you know what you're doing.    

    Also, contrary to an earlier post, filing eviction is not necessary for the county to pay -at least not in Hennepin.  They've only required us to sign a formal notice of termination for non-payment, with the amount claimed due.  

    Like many, I see you have a huge learning curve ahead. Probably good to get an attorney involved. You can try it yourself, but I'd give the average person a 50% chance of getting through a successful eviction their first time. The other 50% lose their filing fees and start over, but even then tenants most likely pay-up immediately or else you can correct the paperwork or other deficiency and re-do the eviction...only rarely does a defense and counterclaim get raised that cleans your clock, and then you'll wish you had an attorney. Read the rules carefully and follow them to the letter, then you odds of success increase to about 80-90%. You'll certainly learn a lot, if you want to look at it that way. Oh, and by the way, if your property is owned by your LLC find out if Anoka allows you to represent your LLC. I believe Hennepin is the only county in the state that still permits such representation without an attorney (and that may change soon too I hear).

    Good luck Kyle!!!   

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron Definitely start the eviction process. People make promises all the time but if they don't follow through on them it reveals their character. Let the judge decide their fate. Good luck! 

  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron They are pulling out all the stops in order to buy more time and they probably recognize you are a new landlord and are taking advantage of that. Start the eviction, but make sure you do so in accordance with the laws in your state because it sounds like you are dealing with tenants that know the system.

  • Attorney · Wayzata, MN · Member since 2016 · 70 posts · 134 votes
    8y

    Kyle.  

    I replied in the other forum.  Sounds like it is time to file an eviction for non payment of rent.  If you file now, you can amend in court and add March Rent.  It is best to keep communication at a minimum (outside of standard maintenance request and reply) with a non-paying tenant.  

    Yes, counties do have emergency assistance available for tennats that can help qualifying tenants catch up.  However, that is a bad sign--that there may be no reliable income to support the monthly rent.

    Best.

    Brad

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 62 posts · 29 votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron thanks for posting. I bought my first place this summer and the experience you are going through is my nightmare. 'Minnesota nice' can get you into trouble as appears to be the case at the moment. One thing that others haven't really mentioned on this thread yet is that in MN it is much easier to rent in the summer or fall. The silver lining here is that in addition to the education you are getting, perhaps your next lease won't renew in December so long term you have a better setup for renewals or new tenants.

  • Real Estate Broker · Northeast PA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    You've received a lot of good advice from many experienced landlords!  Let me add one small point to the great ones above:  the longer you wait for rent to come in, the less likely you are to collect it.

    Our policy is simple and non-discriminatory (applies to ALL tenants):  if rent is not received by 10th of the month, a formal legal Notice To Pay or Quit is posted (that's for PA--your location may differ).  When they call us and ask why are we so 'mean', we refer to the lease, and explain that "the clock is ticking--the clock will stop if/when you pay the rent in full."

    If you are a 'softy' (read newby) and want to extend time for county help or relative to the rescue, etc, START THE CLOCK.  It will not only help motivate the tenant, in many cases it is necessary to show a notice to the agency doing the helping.

    Lastly,  posting the notice does NOT necessarily mean you have to go through with eviction, but it does put the ball in their court and control back in your hands where it belongs.

    Good luck.

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron,

    Welcome to being a landlord, when you are constantly tested on your compassion and professionalism!  While I agree you should evict them, the sooner you get them out-- IMO the better.   If they're already  2 months behind, and you're out a security deposit...   yeah... no offense, but you're screwed.. and you want to take them to court for that much money, that they obviously don't have?   It seems like a TON of extra stress and likely costly attorney fees.   In the meantime, they will just live for free, and deal with the consequences when you take them to court, and the you still won't get your money until you garnish wages-- but what if they don't work?   How much will you be paying in attorney fees?   IMO you just need to stop the bleeding, and cough it up as a very expensive learning lesson.

    If I were you, I'd just go to them-- show them clear proof of how much they owe ($$$$), and tell them you don't think it's going to work out, and offer them $100 to just leave  within say  2days and sign a form clearly canceling any lease agreements.    Show them that it's the best option,  and offer not to further push for the rent if they clean it out... it's best for both parties.

    If they don't take it, start the eviction process the minute you find out they won't do it.      As others have stated, you can always stop an eviction process, but you can't start it days ago, so you're hurting yourself by not starting it.    Tenants will test you, and test you again-- you need to learn to be firm! 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron you have made multiple mistakes, which I am going to point out, only in an effort to help you avoid those mistakes in the future. If you take offense to this or think you don't have the ability to improve your approach, then you should consider stepping out of this business.

    1. You should not have let the mother and three children move in without screening them as applicants and amending the lease. When the father wanted to leave, they all should have left. Or at a minimum the father should not have received any money back until the mother replaced the full deposit.

    2. Never let someone move in without paying security deposit and first months rent in full. Cash, money order or cashiers check. No personal checks.

    3. Never let people take over a lease. The old tenants need to move out, property needs to be vacant, clean and free of damage. "taking over a lease" is a way that bad tenants use to slide into a property under the radar.

    4. Don't allow cats in your property. That can result in thousands of dollars of damage. Maybe you love cats. Maybe you are responsible, but tenants are NOT responsible. Stop thinking that tenants are just like you.

    5. Any time I have received assistance payments from the county, I have been contacted by a county worker and asked to verify information. I am pretty confident they are lying to you about the assistance.

    6. Have an eviction threshold pre-determined. Some have suggested if rent isn't paid in full by the 10th, start eviction. I am more liberal in this area and will work with long term tenants. My threshold is the 15th of the month. The reason is because if they can't come up with rent by the 15th, there is no way they will come up with next months rent either. They will just keep getting further behind. I also require a payment plan and the tenant needs to stick with it. Once they start missing promising or ignoring calls, it is all over.

    7. "I want to keep the tenants" is only your fear speaking. You are new to the business and don't understand that a vacant unit is better than a non-paying tenant. Leasing to new people is really a painless process. It is much easier than chasing rent. Vacancy is your opportunity to screen better and avoid bad tenants in the future. 

    8. This one is a mistake that I fear you will make in the future... When you are selecting a new tenant, don't jump at the first applicant. Hold out for a qualified applicant. Even if the property sits an extra month in the process, you will be rewarded long term by avoiding future problems.

    Before you even posted this question, you knew the answer. You have to proceed to eviction. I have been down your road before and eviction is the only ending to this story. Keep in mind, it is possible when your attorney serves them notice to vacate, they may just leave the property. Even if it goes to eviction, then at least you regain legal rights to your property. 

    One word of caution of the suggestion of paying them cash to leave, AKA cash for keys. DON'T DO IT. Only use an attorney so you get legal rights to the property. You need the attorney to help because you are in over your head.

    Here is the good news. This experience will help to harden you in the future. Don/t let anyone play these games again. Rental business is a great business if you can deal with these types of problems.

  • Investor · Crystal, MN · Member since 2013 · 486 posts · 277 votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron

    Definitely evict.  I have the number of a company that will do this on your behalf.  Your situation is more difficult, I understand, because you live next door.   Also, I've heard the same scam about Hennepin County Emergency assistance.  Doesn't make sense that they would pay for Anoka County residents, now does it?

    @Heidi Pliam   I certainly hope you are wrong and Hennepin County sticks with housing court.  The sheer caseload there makes it highly necessary.  Not too many investors can easily afford an attorney to represent them.  

  • Heidi PliamPro Member
    Attorney, Investor, Syndicator · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 39 votes
    8y

    @David Moore I hope I am wrong too...but really, the thing that needs to happen is investors and small business owners statewide ought to lobby to eliminate use of the unauthorized practice of law statute when a company principal, authorized by company bylaws and resolutions, chooses to represent the company instead of hiring a lawyer!!!!!!!!!!!   (can you tell it's a pet peeve.)  

  • Medford, NJ · Member since 2013 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    8y

    I have a policy that my property managers are instructed to follow.

    I have a 5 day grace period. If the rent is not paid in full by the fifth the eviction process is initiated. As mentioned in previous responses, you can always cancel the eviction. I think you will find that if the tenants are responsible people, they will pay the rent and be mindful of future due dates as they realize that their rent is a priority that needs to be paid on time.

    If the rent is not paid, no matter the excuse, your evection process is already moving forward and your eviction process should be limited to 3 months.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    8y

    Rent is officially late at midnight of the day it is due. If it is due on the 1st it is late on the 2nd. What most landlords fail to understand  is that the "grace period" is only in regards to late fees. Most state regulations recognise rent as late on the 2nd and on that date a landlord should be issuing a pay or quit notice. You do not wait till the 5th, 10th or 15th. 

    Issue the notice on the 2nd, tell your tenant it is official paperwork and required by your lawyer and proceed to eviction if necessary. When they pay the notice is automatically voided if the eviction has not been processed. 

    This is the appropriate process for dealing with every late payment unless your state regulations clearly state otherwise. Any other method teaches tenants that you are their bank and they may pay their rent whenever they choose.

  • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
    8y

    @Kyle Baron - @Bill F. is right. Sound like you're dealing with professional tenants. If you're taking a vote, I'm with @John Underwood - Evict. 

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