Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
We had a showing at one of our C class properties yesterday, and a propsective tenant came in with a boyfriend. She submitted an application (incomplete, and that in itself is a red flag, short rental and employment history, but not overly so), but preliminary check through the local courts shows no issues or criminal record.
However, the boyfriend sat outside for a while blasting loud music, came in smelling of weed (illegal in our state) and immediately started asking questions about keeping multiple vehicles at the property (against the rules) and behaving in a manner that screams ‘problem/nuisance tenant’.
He is NOT on the application, but implied that he will be there if his girlfriend lives there.
Do we have grounds to deny the application based on his behavior alone, despite him not having submitted an application or being on an application?
The upstairs tenants are great and have small kids, and I feel that in addition to safeguarding our investment we have a duty to the upstairs tenants as well.
We had a showing at one of our C class properties yesterday, and a propsective tenant came in with a boyfriend. She submitted an application (incomplete, and that in itself is a red flag, short rental and employment history, but not overly so), but preliminary check through the local courts shows no issues or criminal record.
However, the boyfriend sat outside for a while blasting loud music, came in smelling of weed (illegal in our state) and immediately started asking questions about keeping multiple vehicles at the property (against the rules) and behaving in a manner that screams ‘problem/nuisance tenant’.
He is NOT on the application, but implied that he will be there if his girlfriend lives there.
Do we have grounds to deny the application based on his behavior alone, despite him not having submitted an application or being on an application?
The upstairs tenants are great and have small kids, and I feel that in addition to safeguarding our investment we have a duty to the upstairs tenants as well.
Yes you can deny them for any reason you like so long as it's not a protected class. Protected classes are as follows
Race
Color
Religion
National origin
Sex
Disability
Familial status
Beyond that I've dealt with 1,000's of tenants in my career. More or less what you've got on your hands here is a girl who's boyfriend has a criminal record or a terrible credit history or most likely a combination of both. She is trying to pull a fast one by not having him apply but I assure you they both plan on living there. Just deny them & move on. They sound like filthy savages. Don't give them a 2nd thought.
I'd tell the prospective tenant that if her boyfriend is going to be living there, he needs to also submit an application. I'd also request for her to re-fill out the application in full and not leave it incomplete.
We had a showing at one of our C class properties yesterday, and a propsective tenant came in with a boyfriend. She submitted an application (incomplete, and that in itself is a red flag, short rental and employment history, but not overly so), but preliminary check through the local courts shows no issues or criminal record.
However, the boyfriend sat outside for a while blasting loud music, came in smelling of weed (illegal in our state) and immediately started asking questions about keeping multiple vehicles at the property (against the rules) and behaving in a manner that screams ‘problem/nuisance tenant’.
He is NOT on the application, but implied that he will be there if his girlfriend lives there.
Do we have grounds to deny the application based on his behavior alone, despite him not having submitted an application or being on an application?
The upstairs tenants are great and have small kids, and I feel that in addition to safeguarding our investment we have a duty to the upstairs tenants as well.
Yes you can deny them for any reason you like so long as it's not a protected class. Protected classes are as follows
Race
Color
Religion
National origin
Sex
Disability
Familial status
Beyond that I've dealt with 1,000's of tenants in my career. More or less what you've got on your hands here is a girl who's boyfriend has a criminal record or a terrible credit history or most likely a combination of both. She is trying to pull a fast one by not having him apply but I assure you they both plan on living there. Just deny them & move on. They sound like filthy savages. Don't give them a 2nd thought.
@Kat Rathell James did a great job pointing out the federal laws. Some states and cities/towns have their own laws about tenant screening. But showing an incomplete application is definitely a reason to deny an application, as well as a request to keep multiple vehicles on your property in most jurisdictions.
And if weed is not legal, smoking an illegal substance is not only grounds to reject a tenant but also eviction. But, you have to know the laws of your state about weed. House Bill 523, which took effect on Sept. 8, 2016, in Ohio, established the basic framework for medical marijuana in the state. So he could easily claim it as a disability.
What is it you are questioning. Obviously this is a applicant that should be rejected without any farther discussion or thought.
You need to set specific screening standards in the future such that you do not need to make decisions. For example applicant has or indicates someone will be at the property that is or would be undesirable. When th eindications are obvious you do not question the applicant simply reject. Never over think th eprocess or look for reasons/excuses to ignore common scense. Don't be afraid to manage your property as you see fit.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Laura Kayes, thank you! I am inclined to do that, but am concerned that it’d be easy enough for the applicant to say that he won’t live there to go around the request.
Contractor · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2018 · 303 posts · 240 votes
7y
Do not ask her to fill out the application in full. Just take it and then send a letter saying the reason that you were turn down was because of incomplete information submitted
Investor · Reno, NV · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 11 votes
7y
You are completely within your rights to reject applicants who are missing information on their application that prevents you from being able to check their background. Did you receive any other applications?
Do not ask her to fill out the application in full. Just take it and then send a letter saying the reason that you were turn down was because of incomplete information submitted
Do not tell them why they were rejected. Most places do not require you tell the person why unless it was based on their credit. If you say because of incomplete application, they can just reapply.
@James Wise, I really appreciate you pointing out the protected categories. It really helps keep things in perspective terms of the objective - non-discriminatory - reasons for rejection.
@Theresa Harris - Thank you for the support! I am inclined to go with the instincts, like you said, I just want to see if I am missing something or doing something wrong by rejecting somebody because of somebody else.
@Elliot Galpern, we’re in Wisconsin, where even medical weed is illegal, so, luckily for us the disability part won’t fly in this case ;). But I read about incomplete applications being reason to reject, I will add that to our newborn rule book on tenant screening (this is only our 2nd property).
@Thomas S. I like the suggestion about rejecting somebody who comes with ‘undesirable’ baggage, just want to make sure that this is something I can legally do - hold a non-applicant’s actions against their girlfriend, without somehow violating that girfriend’s rights. This forum is an excellent source of experience and opinion, and I wanted to make sure I am not missing something.
@Robert Biggerstaff, @Greg M., I like the idea about not telling them that’s why directly, and sending a letter. A letter is slow enough where they may not come back in time to beat other applications.
@Account Closed - we sort of did, one applicant submitted the application fee, but said they will fill an online application, which they still did not. How relevant is whether other applications have been submitted? Does priority in submission matter?
@James Wise, I really appreciate you pointing out the protected categories. It really helps keep things in perspective terms of the objective - non-discriminatory - reasons for rejection.
@Theresa Harris - Thank you for the support! I am inclined to go with the instincts, like you said, I just want to see if I am missing something or doing something wrong by rejecting somebody because of somebody else.
@Elliot Galpern, we’re in Wisconsin, where even medical weed is illegal, so, luckily for us the disability part won’t fly in this case ;). But I read about incomplete applications being reason to reject, I will add that to our newborn rule book on tenant screening (this is only our 2nd property).
@Thomas S. I like the suggestion about rejecting somebody who comes with ‘undesirable’ baggage, just want to make sure that this is something I can legally do - hold a non-applicant’s actions against their girlfriend, without somehow violating that girfriend’s rights. This forum is an excellent source of experience and opinion, and I wanted to make sure I am not missing something.
@Robert Biggerstaff, @Greg M., I like the idea about not telling them that’s why directly, and sending a letter. A letter is slow enough where they may not come back in time to beat other applications.
@Account Closed - we sort of did, one applicant submitted the application fee, but said they will fill an online application, which they still did not. How relevant is whether other applications have been submitted? Does priority in submission matter?
Anytime. Feel free to tag me with any further property management related troubles.
Rental Property Investor · Portage, WI · Member since 2018 · 33 posts · 11 votes
7y
If they are causing you to question the situation on the first introduction, go with your gut. Don't second guess yourself. I do tend to agree with the others. But make sure to have all your ducks in a row, just in case. If they are questionable now, they will only get worse. I would look at it like a job interview. People tend to show their best side on the initial meeting, then the crazy comes out once the contracts are signed.
Investor · Reno, NV · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 11 votes
7y
@Kat Rathell Application order generally would only come into play if you are selecting from equally qualified applicants. Even then ther's still a lot that is up to your discretion. @James Wise nailed it on the head that your real concern is only if you are violating a protected class. If you have a legitimate reason outside of these protected classes (as I believe you do in your case) you can reject their application. You need to remember that they would need to file a complaint before this becomes any sort of issue anyway. In my experience I don't know that the likelihood of that is very high in the first place.
Vacancy is one of the cardinal sins in property management. However, given your situation I'd highly recommend waiting for an applicant that doesn't have so many red flags. Think about your advertising and make sure that you're using all the resources available to find new tenants. Even a few weeks of vacancy is going to be better than fielding complaints from the upstairs tenants, police coming to the property to serve arrest warrants, and the almost inevitable eviction that you are going to deal with. Don't even risk it.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Seth Dettenmaier, thank you! I was wondering if there was such a thing as application priority, and it’s good to know that I don’t have to go by that unless I am choosing between equally qualified candidates! This is a really helpful piece of info!
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Seth Dettenmaier, we do try to wait for the right tenant, after hearing the horror stories of fellow investors who worry more about reducing vacancy in the short term than issues down the road. I agree completely that waiting is the better choice than rushing into it.
To further clarify the issue of application priority I'll give you two scenarios.
Situation 1 - You only have a few units. If you have multiple equally qualified applicants for a unit you do not need to give priority based on application order. Accept the one you feel best about (obviously avoiding discrimination against protected classes).
Situation 2 - You have many units (15+ for example). If you have multiple equally qualified applicants you may want to give priority based on application order. This will protect you from any potential appearance of discrimination since your decision was ultimately based on the order you received the applications. Otherwise, if you receive a complaint for discrimination and someone sees that your historically selected tenants seem to suggests that you do reject equally qualified applicants because they're from protected classes you'll probaly find yourself in trouble.
I at least hope that makes some sense and might help you in your application screening.
Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
7y
@Kat Rathell I am going with advice from Mike Butler's book Landlording on Autopilot. He is a an ex-cop.
Never reject a tenant, especially not in writing. Don't respond to their application, tell them you'll call back, more time for background check etc... they will get it and look else where.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Seth Dettenmaier, thank you! It does make a lot of sense! Thank you for this piece of the puzzle!
I guess a further protection is that at we usually have set showing times and multiple people show up (it is too finicky a crowd to set up individual showing times, only 10%-30% or so actually show) When multiple people show up, we would not always know who submitted an application and in what order, and neither would the prospective tenants.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Marcus Auerbach, hi!
We are actually neighbors - we’re in Brown Deer, just south of Mequon, but we invest in the Milwaukee inner city neighborhoods.
Thank you for the advice! Is this something that we can legally do in WI, not respond to an application?
Do you know if Wisconsin requires landlords to disclose reasons for rejecting tenant applications in a rejection letter or other means of communication? I tried looking for that information and could not find a definitive answer from an authoritative source. Any resources on the WI-specific screening regulations would be highly appreciated.
Investor · Reno, NV · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 11 votes
7y
@Kat Rathell I'm not familiar with the book "Landlording on Autopilot" that was mentioned. No doubt it's something I should add to the arsenal as I'm always looking for great property management advice. I'll just offer you the advice from "Every Landlord's Legal Guide" written by lawyers at NOLO. They suggest providing applicants with a Notice of Denial Based on Credit Report or Other Information. This advice ensures that you are in the strongest position legally to defend your actions if you ever find yourself facing a complaint from a fair housing agency. As a landlord this is ultimately what you really care about and why crafting strong leases and rental agreements are a BIG deal. You have the option to simply ignore the applicant in an effort to hope that they give up and go away. I think this decision really comes down to your management style and where on the spectrum you want to be as a manager, ranging from slumlord up to polished professional. I'm guessing that by seeking out advice on BP that you're interested more in the professional side.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2019 · 88 posts · 49 votes
7y
@Seth Dettenmaier, you are not wrong. ‘Professional’ is where we hope to get to, making sure we treat people fairly, without jeopardizing our investments or setting ourselves up for legal repercussions or putting ourselves in a position where others can take advantage, considering the neighborhoods and property class (C and below) we invest in.
It is a learning experience - collecting pieces of the puzzle as to what is common practice, best practices, legally allowed/expected/required in the state we are in.
This forum is excellent, because it brings together people with experience, knowledge and plenty of opinion ;). The opinions may not always be something to 100% agree with, but they are very valuable and very much appreciated nonetheless, because they help paint a true picture of what land-lording is. It is up to us to figure out where we will fall as landlords on that spectrum.