Is it illegal to advertise different rental prices for SEC 8...

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Is it illegal to advertise different rental prices for SEC 8...

Charlie Moore
Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes

Listing my home for rent

SEC 8 voucher for a 4 bedroom is 1000

People who do not accept the voucher, usually have lower rents..

So with a sec 8 tenant, i can get 1k per month and with a normal tenant the market allows me to get 850.00

Is it illegal to change rental prices and agreements?

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Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y

Let me clarify something.

  1. It is perfectly legal to discriminate in rental housing
  2. It is NOT legal to discriminate against "Protected Classes"

@Lien Vuong Posted

without discrimination or other limitations bases on your race, color,
religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.

You CAN discriminate for people other than listed above (based on federal law). You can discriminate based on criminal background for example, or you can discriminate based on someone not meeting your income requirements.

Now It is important to understand that state or local jurisdictions can have more "protected classes" and you need to know those local requirements.

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  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Charlie Moore:

    Listing my home for rent

    SEC 8 voucher for a 4 bedroom is 1000

    People who do not accept the voucher, usually have lower rents..

    So with a sec 8 tenant, i can get 1k per month and with a normal tenant the market allows me to get 850.00

    Is it illegal to change rental prices and agreements?

     I do not know if it's actually an illegal act. I assume it's not but it is a violation of the housing authority policy and they will remove landlords from the Section 8 program.

    0Reply
  • Frank Procopio
    Real Estate Agent · Naples, FL · Member since 2016 · 298 posts · 268 votes
    7y

    That is a fair housing violation for sure 

    3Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    If source of income is a protected class in the location where the property is, then yes that would be illegal. It would be no different than say X rent for African Americans and Y rent for Caucasians.

    Your profile says DC, and in DC source of income is a protected class.

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  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Charlie Moore It is absolutely NOT a fair housing violation based on federal law to discriminate against section 8. Source of income or Section 8 housing assistance is NOT a "Protected Class" in federal law.

    Some local jurisdictions have added "Source of Income"  as  protected class. The idea is they want to force landlords to accept section 8.  I don't know about DC but @Russell Brazil will certainly know.

    Now lets talk from a practical Perspective. Section 8 determines the "Fair Market Rent" that they will pay. It is not necessarily what you ask for or the amount you advertise. If you know you want section 8, simply advertise for the amount you expect them to pay. If market tenants are turned off by the high price why do you care?

    In my area the voucher amount is not necessarily what they will pay for your particular unit. 

    5Reply
  • Lien VuongBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Fair Housing States: 

    You have the right to expect that housing will be available to you without discrimination or other limitations bases on your race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.

    This includes the right to expect the following:
    Housing in your price range available to you without discrimination
    Equal professional service
    The opportunity to consider a broad range of housing choices
    No discriminatory limitations on communities or location of housing
    No discrimination in the financing, appraising, or insuring of housing
    Reasonable accommodations in rules, practices, and procedures for persons with disabilities
    Asking about physical disability and selecting unit type.
    Non-discriminatory terms and conditions for the sale, rental, financing, or insuring of a dwelling; and
    To be free from harassment or intimidations for exercising your fair housing rights.

    You cannot and should not have two sets of prices. What you want for the unit will be what you advertise and if the market can bear and absorb that rate then it is by someone who is ready and able, regardless of subsidies. 

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  • Shadonna N.
    Developer · . · Member since 2014 · 520 posts · 162 votes
    7y

    If you are in DC this is an absolute violation and against the law. There is no where in DC where a 4 BR is going for 1k. Just list your property, state that all tenants are welcome. DC housing provides monthly meetings educating landlords. They are very informative. If you rent is too high you can always negotiate on an agreeable rent. Work with a professional who knows the law. Good luck.

    2Reply
  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    Let me clarify something.

    1. It is perfectly legal to discriminate in rental housing
    2. It is NOT legal to discriminate against "Protected Classes"

    @Lien Vuong Posted

    without discrimination or other limitations bases on your race, color,
    religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.

    You CAN discriminate for people other than listed above (based on federal law). You can discriminate based on criminal background for example, or you can discriminate based on someone not meeting your income requirements.

    Now It is important to understand that state or local jurisdictions can have more "protected classes" and you need to know those local requirements.

    6Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Charlie Moore:

    Listing my home for rent

    SEC 8 voucher for a 4 bedroom is 1000

    People who do not accept the voucher, usually have lower rents..

    So with a sec 8 tenant, i can get 1k per month and with a normal tenant the market allows me to get 850.00

    Is it illegal to change rental prices and agreements?

     I do not know if it's actually an illegal act. I assume it's not but it is a violation of the housing authority policy and they will remove landlords from the Section 8 program.

     So how do i price my sec 8 rentals?

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Frank Procopio:

    That is a fair housing violation for sure 

     sooooooo If I advertise it at 900...

    Thats the price it HAS to stay? Even when the sec 8 voucher states something else, They pay more than that in the voucher

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

    If source of income is a protected class in the location where the property is, then yes that would be illegal. It would be no different than say X rent for African Americans and Y rent for Caucasians.

    Your profile says DC, and in DC source of income is a protected class.

     Sorry. I invest in PA now mostly...

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ned Carey:

    @Charlie Moore It is absolutely NOT a fair housing violation based on federal law to discriminate against section 8. Source of income or Section 8 housing assistance is NOT a "Protected Class" in federal law.

    Some local jurisdictions have added "Source of Income"  as  protected class. The idea is they want to force landlords to accept section 8.  I don't know about DC but @Russell Brazil will certainly know.

    Now lets talk from a practical Perspective. Section 8 determines the "Fair Market Rent" that they will pay. It is not necessarily what you ask for or the amount you advertise. If you know you want section 8, simply advertise for the amount you expect them to pay. If market tenants are turned off by the high price why do you care?

    In my area the voucher amount is not necessarily what they will pay for your particular unit. 

     NED! First of all, I love the name of your company! Super catchy!

    Yes, So sec8 vouchers will PAY MORE.

    That is why i struggle to find a proper listing price.....

    So just list my properties at the SEC8 pricing guidelines?

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ned Carey:

    @Charlie Moore It is absolutely NOT a fair housing violation based on federal law to discriminate against section 8. Source of income or Section 8 housing assistance is NOT a "Protected Class" in federal law.

    Some local jurisdictions have added "Source of Income"  as  protected class. The idea is they want to force landlords to accept section 8.  I don't know about DC but @Russell Brazil will certainly know.

    Now lets talk from a practical Perspective. Section 8 determines the "Fair Market Rent" that they will pay. It is not necessarily what you ask for or the amount you advertise. If you know you want section 8, simply advertise for the amount you expect them to pay. If market tenants are turned off by the high price why do you care?

    In my area the voucher amount is not necessarily what they will pay for your particular unit. 

    Also, In my advertisements...

    I say " SEC 8 VOUCHER ONLY!!! Must have SEC8 in order to apply " 

    Is this BAD to do? 

    0Reply
  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Charlie Moore If "source of income" is a protected class where you invest (as already said, it is not in federal law) Then no you cannot say section 8 only.

    i am not sure why you are having trouble pricing the unit. Just price it high and let section 8 negotiate you down.  I would just price it at $1100.  List it on "Go Section 8" if that is in your area. 

    0Reply
  • Kris L.
    San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 930 posts · 836 votes
    7y

    If Sec 8 pays above market rates, just advertise it at the Sec 8 rate you are trying to get and put "Sec 8 welcome!" in the ad.  The non-sec 8 can still rent at the higher rate if they want, but most of your applicants would probably be section 8.

    0Reply
  • Bill O'Donnell
    Rental Property Investor · Newburgh, NY · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 117 votes
    7y

    @Ned Carey

    in new York state, source of funds, including section 8,dss, ss ,child support, alimony etc

    Are protected in the same way as the other classes you mentioned. Same thing in some, but not all, other places...

    0Reply
  • Damaso Bautista
    Rental Property Investor · Hawthorne, CA · Member since 2018 · 655 posts · 900 votes
    7y

    @Charlie Moore

    I agree with @Kris L.

    For example is every house in the neighborhood rents for $1 but section 8 says your home can rent for $800 based on their criteria.  You can rent your home for whatever section 8 says you can rent it for.  If someone wants to rent your property that is not section 8 and chooses to pay $800 instead of the home next door that rents for $1 that is their choice.  

    0Reply
  • Dave DeMarinis
    Lender · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 255 votes
    7y

    One thing to remember, the section 8 guidelines are normally for total cost of housing. That means the amount needs to cover rent AND utilities. If the tenant is paying utilities (and there is no assistance available for utilities) - that needs to be subtracted from the rent. Section 8 rents normally look substantially higher than the market rent in typical C areas but part of it is often the utilities piece. Most importantly, Section 8 will negotiate what rent they are willing to pay with you (not up but down) so just list at what you want and negotiate from there. 

    Don't say Section 8 only and don't advertise different prices.

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Kris L.:

    If Sec 8 pays above market rates, just advertise it at the Sec 8 rate you are trying to get and put "Sec 8 welcome!" in the ad.  The non-sec 8 can still rent at the higher rate if they want, but most of your applicants would probably be section 8.

     Okay, Say I go ahead and do that, and i get minimal referrals and interest...

    Can i then proceed to lower it for NON SEC 8 PERSONS

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Lien Vuong:

    Fair Housing States: 

    You have the right to expect that housing will be available to you without discrimination or other limitations bases on your race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.

    This includes the right to expect the following:
    Housing in your price range available to you without discrimination
    Equal professional service
    The opportunity to consider a broad range of housing choices
    No discriminatory limitations on communities or location of housing
    No discrimination in the financing, appraising, or insuring of housing
    Reasonable accommodations in rules, practices, and procedures for persons with disabilities
    Asking about physical disability and selecting unit type.
    Non-discriminatory terms and conditions for the sale, rental, financing, or insuring of a dwelling; and
    To be free from harassment or intimidations for exercising your fair housing rights.

    You cannot and should not have two sets of prices. What you want for the unit will be what you advertise and if the market can bear and absorb that rate then it is by someone who is ready and able, regardless of subsidies. 

    Please respond.

    Okay, I list them all at above market rates, Based on the guidelines my local sec 8 administration gave me.


    Should I just lower the rental rate then, for people who DO not have the voucher?

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dave DeMarinis:

    One thing to remember, the section 8 guidelines are normally for total cost of housing. That means the amount needs to cover rent AND utilities. If the tenant is paying utilities (and there is no assistance available for utilities) - that needs to be subtracted from the rent. Section 8 rents normally look substantially higher than the market rent in typical C areas but part of it is often the utilities piece. Most importantly, Section 8 will negotiate what rent they are willing to pay with you (not up but down) so just list at what you want and negotiate from there. 

    Don't say Section 8 only and don't advertise different prices.

     Okay, I have been putting sec 8 only.

    I hope that is NOT illegal haha. Although, I do Not imagine the GOV getting mad at me for supporting there programs lol

    Yes, last time they called and negotiated me down by 100 bucks...

    0Reply
  • Charlie Moore
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · D.C · Member since 2019 · 501 posts · 102 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ned Carey:

    @Charlie Moore If "source of income" is a protected class where you invest (as already said, it is not in federal law) Then no you cannot say section 8 only.

    i am not sure why you are having trouble pricing the unit. Just price it high and let section 8 negotiate you down.  I would just price it at $1100.  List it on "Go Section 8" if that is in your area. 

    Okay! I list it at the going rate that the PACKET says, for a 4 bedroom!

    0Reply
  • Dave DeMarinis
    Lender · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 255 votes
    7y

    I think we are confusing advertising and negotiating. You can not advertise different prices for different tenants. Even if you find some narrow area where it isn't illegal, it is bad business and complicated to advertise it. However, you can negotiate individually with each tenant. 

    If you have two "identical" units, advertised for the same price and you qualify a Section 8 tenant for one and a non-section 8 for the other. You can negotiate to different prices for each of them and that is totally fine. Hopefully that helps.

    While we're on the topic - you really need to have a written process for how you process applications and qualify applicants. Do the same thing for all applicants every time and you won't have a fair housing problem.

    1Reply
  • John Teachout
    Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    I'm really getting confused by this post. Why would someone specify section 8 only? Just rent the property for the going market rate. What difference does it make whether or not it's a section 8 tenant if you're ok with participating in a voucher program? If you aren't sure what to set the rent at, then do some research and figure it out. The market will also let you know whether you're in the right price range. I would certainly not advertise as section 8 only. What would be the point of that? Would you refuse a non voucher tenant that wanted to pay your listed price? 

    0Reply
  • Jeshua Patrick
    Rental Property Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2017 · 298 posts · 232 votes
    7y

    @Charlie Moore most likely this is a FHA violation as you are discriminating against anyone who is not Sec 8. It might be ok to say Sec 8 welcome but I would avoid saying only for many reasons this being one of them.

    0Reply
  • Joseph Walsh
    Brookfield, WI · Member since 2016 · 191 posts · 108 votes
    7y

    Why not price it higher, you can always decide to take less, voucher or not.

    0Reply
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