Tenant didn't sign lease
Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes
Tenant didn't sign lease
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Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6yOriginally posted by @Nik Corbaxhi:
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
Try visiting her and knock on the door. While tenants don't like unexpected visits, especially from the landlord, you have exhausted all communications channels with no luck. Once you get her in person, then ask for the lease agreement that you have not received yet and if she dances around it (I would expect she would), then straight up ask her if the rent increase is the issue and how you can work with her, if you want to retain her. If not, just state that if there is no contract, you will have to start showing the property to potential tenants as you want to have lease agreements for 1 year instead of month to month. At this point you can end the month to month at any point, as long as you give her enough notice (usually 30 days in advance).
I'll add to that - bring a spare copy of the new lease and a copy of your 30 day notice just in case.
43 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Stratford, CT · Member since 2019 · 154 posts · 115 votes6y
@Ryan Proffit, sounds to me like she does not want to sign the lease, and is currently looking for other options. In the meantime, she is paying the rent increase.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
- Rental Property Investor · Stratford, CT · Member since 2019 · 154 posts · 115 votes6y
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
Try visiting her and knock on the door. While tenants don't like unexpected visits, especially from the landlord, you have exhausted all communications channels with no luck. Once you get her in person, then ask for the lease agreement that you have not received yet and if she dances around it (I would expect she would), then straight up ask her if the rent increase is the issue and how you can work with her, if you want to retain her. If not, just state that if there is no contract, you will have to start showing the property to potential tenants as you want to have lease agreements for 1 year instead of month to month. At this point you can end the month to month at any point, as long as you give her enough notice (usually 30 days in advance).
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Nik Corbaxhi:
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
Try visiting her and knock on the door. While tenants don't like unexpected visits, especially from the landlord, you have exhausted all communications channels with no luck. Once you get her in person, then ask for the lease agreement that you have not received yet and if she dances around it (I would expect she would), then straight up ask her if the rent increase is the issue and how you can work with her, if you want to retain her. If not, just state that if there is no contract, you will have to start showing the property to potential tenants as you want to have lease agreements for 1 year instead of month to month. At this point you can end the month to month at any point, as long as you give her enough notice (usually 30 days in advance).
I'll add to that - bring a spare copy of the new lease and a copy of your 30 day notice just in case.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nik Corbaxhi:
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
Try visiting her and knock on the door. While tenants don't like unexpected visits, especially from the landlord, you have exhausted all communications channels with no luck. Once you get her in person, then ask for the lease agreement that you have not received yet and if she dances around it (I would expect she would), then straight up ask her if the rent increase is the issue and how you can work with her, if you want to retain her. If not, just state that if there is no contract, you will have to start showing the property to potential tenants as you want to have lease agreements for 1 year instead of month to month. At this point you can end the month to month at any point, as long as you give her enough notice (usually 30 days in advance).
Thank you. We have even tried doing the door knock to no avail. At her new rate she is still 200 below market at least. I guess I will send her a letter telling her that she needs to be out by March 1st unless she signs the lease. She pays, and keeps it clean, but she is being unreliable currently.
- Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes6y
@Ryan Proffit. She’s gone Dark on you. This never ends with what you want. It ends with what the tenant wants. I deal with 40 tenants in my storage facility. When they stop talking they also stop paying, getting behind so far they can’t pay and you evict or they pay and move out. She has tenant rights whatever they are in your state/area. If you didn’t get an estoppel signed prior to closing you can’t force her to sign a lease with you either. Secondly it’s not professional or good business practice to buy a place and raise all the rents immediately. If you have to do that your due diligence was in error. You will be lucky if they don’t all move out. Your lucky she paid you the increase. She was under no obligation to do so. That’s why many tenants move out when a property is for sale, or is sold. Next time buy the property, cut the grass, fix the place up a little show the tenants you care about the property, then raise the rent. Buying it and immediately raising the rent is going to to be hard to live down. RR
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Ralph R. The rents haven’t been raised at this apartment since 2006. We have already been making improvements and addressing tenants concerns. I’m not sure what kind of business I would be running if I continued to charge 2003 prices. I appreciate your input, but I will have to agree to disagree on some of it. The low rent prices have kept some unsavory characters in these units and we are planning on turning it.
- Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
@Ryan Proffit
If rent is $200 per month below market I wouldn’t even consider putting up with this level of avoidance. Pay people to make your life easier, not harder. Right now you’re essentially paying her $200/month to duck your calls. Take the lease and 30 day notice and knock, if no answer, leave the notice. New tenant lease needs to be at market, not below.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Okay, first, by her paying the new amount, she has acknowledged receipt of the new lease agreement and she has agreed to the terms - at least as far as how much rent she needs to pay. So, she can't say she never received the new lease agreement.
Normally, with month to month tenants, all you have to do is give them 30 days notice of new terms. This doesn't require a signature.
So, what I think I'd do in your position is just send her notice with proof of delivery - I just used the USPS priority mail envelope with proof of delivery, with a copy of the new lease and a letter saying please be aware that all of the terms of the enclosed agreement will be enforced beginning thirty days from proof of delivery of this document and that you hope she will continue to be a tenant in the property (if you actually do), and then maybe include something about please let you know if there are any maintenance issues that need to be addressed.
It doesn't matter if they sign for anything. I loved using the USPS priority mail because they can't dodge proof of delivery and it's cheaper than UPS or FedEx. Normally, courts just need proof of delivery.
I wouldn't take it as some big giant problem that she hasn't signed the lease. She did start paying the new rent and isn't blowing up your phone, so it's probably all fine. Sending a letter just saying all terms of the enclosed lease are enforced after 30 days of her receiving them, just lets her know she can't dodge the terms. May save problems later, if she thinks that she can dodge terms by not signing.
But, it's also possible that she has no intention of dodging any terms, but she just hasn't gotten around to making a copy of a signed document. Did you enclose an extra copy for her to keep? It's possible that's her only problem and she's too busy to deal with making a copy.
- Investor · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2017 · 463 posts · 488 votes6y
If she pays the higher rent rate without signing the lease, she created "tenancy at will" and considered month-to-month. If you must require a signature and she just refuses to sign, you can give her proper notice and simply not renew the lease
- Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes6y
@Ryan Proffit @Jingwen Dunford. Like the other poster indicated she has established her tenancy by acknowledging the higher rent. She has tenant rights whatever they are in your area. She is month to month. You need to get her out accordingly. You failed to get estoppel agreements signed prior to closing so she has no obligation to sign your lease. If you have to have her signature then your choice is a 30 day notice. This is not an eviction but a notice to quit. If your not able to provide proof of the condition of the apartment when she moved in ( in 2006?) you are going to have difficulty assessing what damages she is responsible for and what may have been pre existing. A land lord that doesn’t raise rent is likely not doing maintenance. This may make it difficult to keep any of her deposit. In Colorado you must provide documentation to the tenant listing all damages and all costs they are responsible for. A savey tenant can get up to 3 times their deposit back if the landlord exaggerates this. I don’t know the rules in your area. It is not the tenants fault the rents are so far behind. I make no judgement on the kind of business you may be running but if you raised rents from a 2003 or 2006 level to a 2020 level at one shot it’s pretty much self evident. RR
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Ralph R. Her rent was 550, market rent is 850. We bumped it up to 600. So I don’t think we gave her an excessive rent raise. We are producing shorter leases with systematic rent raises. The tenants have stated they like what we are doing with the property. We do plan to get to full market rate in the next 18 months. We fully intend to draft a rent increase schedule and send it out to all tenants. I have been in her apartment, she takes good care of it. She had one issue with her apartment and we addressed it promptly. I am certain she is most likely looking for a new apartment because she began a job in a town about 30 minutes away. But it’s hard to confirm because she went dark. Luckily my dad lives next door, so I have eyes on if she decides to move out.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Sue K. Thank you very much. Yes, a copy was provided. She was responsive to any messages we sent out, but anytime the lease was mentioned she would avoid the subject. At that point I assumed she is planning on moving.
- 6yTony HightowerPro MemberRental Property Investor · Clarksville, Tenn · Member since 2017 · 72 posts · 34 votes
@Ryan Proffit
If she did not return it, she is still on Month to Month. Send out another 30 day notice for another increase if you feel you need the lease. (Call it "Our Short Term Month to Month rates")
If you feel she is looking elsewhere, maybe this is a way to collect a more fair rent while still allowing her to look.
Else, collect the higher rent on Month to Month.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
Originally posted by @Tony Hightower:
@Ryan Proffit
If she did not return it, she is still on Month to Month. Send out another 30 day notice for another increase if you feel you need the lease. (Call it "Our Short Term Month to Month rates")
If you feel she is looking elsewhere, maybe this is a way to collect a more fair rent while still allowing her to look.
Else, collect the higher rent on Month to Month.
Thank you, this is something I will def consider.
- 6yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Originally posted by @Max T.:
Originally posted by @Nik Corbaxhi:
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit:
@Nik Corbaxhi I agree with that. Looking for some advice to move forward.
Try visiting her and knock on the door. While tenants don't like unexpected visits, especially from the landlord, you have exhausted all communications channels with no luck. Once you get her in person, then ask for the lease agreement that you have not received yet and if she dances around it (I would expect she would), then straight up ask her if the rent increase is the issue and how you can work with her, if you want to retain her. If not, just state that if there is no contract, you will have to start showing the property to potential tenants as you want to have lease agreements for 1 year instead of month to month. At this point you can end the month to month at any point, as long as you give her enough notice (usually 30 days in advance).
I'll add to that - bring a spare copy of the new lease and a copy of your 30 day notice just in case.
I was going to add this^^^.
I'll add one more thing, do it BEFORE the end of January so you can get her out by end of February if she's not going to sign.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
I think this will be the road we end up on. I would much rather get someone in there who will at least communicate. I really appreciate your advice.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes6y
@Ryan Proffitt you have given her no reason to sign the lease. She is currently month-to-month and the new lease is month-to-month. She is paying the new rate.
In the future, give people incentive to sign the lease by giving options:
1. Sign this lease and your rent is $600 per month, locked in on a 6 month term, then M2M.
2. Stay month-to-month on current lease and pay $650 per month.
3. Give 30 day notice and vacate at the end of February.
At this point your only incentive is "sign the lease or vacate". It is kind of a negative position, but if you want the lease signed, that is where you are at.
Keep in mind too that some tenants just hate signing leases. Even though the agreement is month-to-month, in her mind she is already month-to-month. She sees no reason to sign a new agreement. I know from your perspective you want your own lease terms. I am just saying look at it from her perspective. She is paying you more money, so she sees no reason to sign something.
I wouldn't assume she is bad. She may just not understand the purpose of the new agreement. Tell her why it benefits her. In this case, the benefit is she can stay living there.
- Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes6y
@Bob B. This was the first lesson I was taught 35 years ago when I entered the meat cutting trade. In those exact words. It’s better to mark the price of a steak down and find a home for it than it is to try to get top dollar and end up throwing the steak away. RR
- Member since 2019 · 22 posts · 9 votes6y
@Ryan Proffit
@Sue K. and a couple other people pointed out the tenancy at will. This excerpt is from the South Carolina landlord tenant act:
“If the tenant does not sign and deliver a written rental agreement which has been signed and delivered to the tenant by the landlord, acceptance of possession and payment of rent without reservation gives the rental agreement the same effect as if it had been signed and delivered by the tenant”
Unless I am mistaken, if this case was in South Carolina, her paying the new rent after you’ve delivered a signed lease would effectively bind her into the new lease, even if she didn’t return the lease signed. So she wouldn’t be on a month2month, she would be on whatever was written on the lease. Unless I am just reading the SC law wrong. Worth checking out your state’s law to see what’s up.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Joe Splitrock the lease I was trying to get her to sign was a 3 month lease, not a month to month. We were trying to get past winter then move to longer leases. I fully intend to add pricing options into our leases going forward. I don’t think she is bad at all. But she is def ghosting me.
- Member since 2019 · 295 posts · 159 votes6y
@Ryan Proffit. Since she wants to go dark I’d shoot for the stars!! 850 increase month to month tenants pay a premium especially ones who go dark and if they move fine.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes6y
@Robert Lei I will dig deeper. Thanks for your thoughtful input. What airframe are you on? I have been Air Guard for 19 years.
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