Should Landlords ever provide Internet?
New York City, NY · Member since 2012 · 77 posts · 11 votes
I have one tenant who's been here a long time, before I started not officially including internet. Now I say "I sometimes share mine with people as a courtesy, but it's not included-- if the person makes my internet go out, I stop sharing."
Should a landlord ever offer internet?
In roommate situations?
In apartment settings?
[b]Is it too much of a hassle and liability risk to even consider it?[b]
I'm in a roommate situation, and having each person buy their own seems not necessary. But, I don't enjoy whiney tenants complaining about slow internet because they're downloading/streaming too much Netflix or junk.
Do you offer internet? Why or why not?
Large apartment complexes with full-time staff, maybe.
Otherwise, I would say.... never.
Not worth it.
Issues:
- tenants not knowing how to connect their device and calling you for help
- tenants still not understanding how to connect, asking you to come do it
- tenants trying to connect some ridiculously old device that's not compatible
- tenant hogging bandwidth with streaming video or Skype or whatever
- tenant doing illegal non-sense
- tenants calling all the time whining that their internet is slow
- tenant whining that their signal isn't strong enough... on antique devices.
- tenant calling at some obscene hour saying their internet is down
With roommates, I've done/do it. I wouldn't do it again. I've had tenant roommates who hog bandwidth, then wonder why it's down or slow. I've had others who can't figure out how to connect to a wi-fi network. I've had others who try to download s***t. (I had to install a security app to block download sites. Still, tenants could try to bypass this security). I've had tenants stream Netflix and Pandora on a few devices full-stream HD at once, then whine that their internet goes down or is slow. Really, people? One even whined that if the internet kept acting up (largely because of them), they would probably have to move. Ok, good riddance. I offer dirt cheap rent in a great property.
Never again will I offer to share my internet after my current tenant / roommates move out. NEVER. They want internet, they can buy their own and deal with their internet issues on their own. It's not that we have internet issues very often, but a few times a month is more of a hassle than I want when I'm not making money on it.
If you share it, get a Wi-Fi router with Tomato or WW-DRT (whatever it's called) and limit bandwidth on each device so there's not one device hogging the network. Block torrents. Have good security. Expect tenants to whine.
Jon T. I would go the wifi route. Have your local commercial Wi Fi hot spot installer evaluate your situation. Trees and other barriers affect the signal and that will determine the number of repeaters you'll need. Best to you.
I would say that there is much more liability in providing internet than electric.
More tenants are likely to download movies than use a lamp to do something illegal. It takes mere seconds to find something to download. And, unlike if a tenant is growing "plants" with a lamp, you can't visibly see the downloads they're doing. Plus, the internet service is in your name or your LLCs name. If the electricity service is in your name, the utility company couldn't care less that your tenant is using their electricity to grow "plants." (DA will care, then it's between the tenant and prosecutors.) If a tenant uses too much light bulb, your electricity company isn't going to ban you. An internet company can, especially if there's downloading going on. And the internet is in your name, so there could be some liability there. Even if you tell tenants that you'll report torrenting activity, I've never seen that scare people off. Especially if you've got college students, in particular those from Asia... there's very little copyright protection there and teenagers from Asia have very very high rates of downloading. You should've seen the download rates at our college international student dorms. Yikes. College students in general download too easily too, and aren't easily scared that they'll get in trouble for doing so.
Jon K.
And I will continue to disagree there is any increased liability. It's a utility, just as electrical or telephony. Even if "[m]ore tenants are likely to download movies that use a lamp to do something illegal", I am no more liable for one than the other.
Now, if you are going to monitor your tenants network traffic and become aware of illegal activity, that changes the situation [never mind, that you would be breaching privacy law yourself]. Of course, if you became aware of your tenants using the electrical or the telephony services to carry out criminal acts, the situation would change similarly.
I agree with most, I would no provide free internet service for the obvious reason.
I would not provide "free" Internet service either - after all, I am running a business. That does not mean, I would not bundle it with other services and utilities provided to my tenants.
I am still curious why seasoned landlords treat the "Internet" utility differently than the other utilities at their properties.
Is it because the Internet is still viewed as a "new" thing? [BTW: It is better than 30-years old and some of us have been using it since the early 1980s] I'm sure there were landlords once upon a time would not provide electrical nor telephony services for "the obvious reason".
There's a big difference between providing phone and internet. Even so, I wouldn't provide either. With phones, they could run up long-distance calls if you don't make sure to turn those features off. With internet, there's liability liability liability. They can do all sorts of things to get in trouble, and if it's in your name, you might not be off the hook either.
Too much liability, too much hassle. You'll have tenants whining that their internet goes down after they've been downloading too much. Plus, it's incredibly easy for other tenants to use Wireshark and see network traffic (after all, they have the network password already). Plus, if the network gets hacked and your tenants e-mail/banking/etc. data is exposed or at risk, you've got even more headache on your hands. I don't see the benefit.
If anything, I would talk to a local ISP and tell them I've got an apartment complex... could they offer my tenants who sign up on their own special pricing? Then let tenants deal with it themselves.
Cable TV is easier. There's few ways, if any, that a tenant could get in trouble if you provide basic (NOT digital) cable.
Maybe in Canada you've got less liability on your hands.
Jon K.
A bit of sensationalism there. I've been designing secure data and telecommunications (both local/metro and international) networks for over 25 years. Your list of worries are easily addressed with proper design and implementation. None of my tenants see each other's communications traffic - each unit has it's own network (physical and logical) which are multiplexed onto a common fibre feed from the building ... a very similar design to office buildings/campuses.
The technology is a strawman in this debate, the real issue is agency and responsibility for oneself versus liability for the actions of another.
While Canada may be a less litigious society than the U.S.A., the core of the issue is you are not responsible for illegal behaviour of others - your tenants in this case - unless you knowingly condone or enable those illegal activities. Providing a bundled utility (electrical or communications) with the rent of a unit does not constitute "knowingly enabling" criminal activity ... if it did, you would see very different behaviour from the hotel industry.
It is possible that, in the land where spilling coffee on your lap nets you a milling dollar civil settlement, there may be a level of {frivolous?} liability those of us from elsewhere do not understand.
You've got a separate router with separate logins for each unit? I'm guessing your building doesn't have 200 units? Then you have to change the login for each new tenant, give them the login, and handle their calls each time their router goes offline or wears out? Do the tenants have admin access to routers? What if their devices aren't secure or they share the connection with a few clicks using software like Connectivity and completely open part of your network to the public? Lots of work and hardware costs I wouldn't want with unless you're charging these people adequately for the service and your time.
Potential liability concerns aren't sensationalism in this country. Too much time, hassle, more contracts to sign, liability to deal with, and potential problems to even think about providing internet in our country. That would make you an ISP reseller here, and not many"real" ISPs providing you internet here allow you to share internet with others. Violates local TOS. Canada sounds nice...
I could see providing the service as being tempting for short-term rentals if there was enough income to justify the hassle. Maybe I should buy a vacation rental property in Canada.
Jon K.
My personal buildings are not 200 units - but I have designed and overseen the implementation of networks for larger complexes. If done properly, your litany of problems are not applicable {that's simply not how large networks are built}.
Doing this does not make you an ISP reseller - you would not be purchasing a consumer offering and the terms of service would be different - and usually negotiated {Yes, I have built large networks in your country as well}.
What you have made clear, is you believe providing a bundled communications utility to be not right for you, which is completely fine.
We, on the other hand, will continue to provide our tenants with the option of a Utilities agreement along with their lease in which they can select wich utilities they would like to have bundled, as we believe it is a differentiator in our current markets.
Mattie Covatch
I like it best when tenants pay for their own utilities directly from the provider and I'm not the middle man or service provided.
All of my tenants pay for their own electricity, their own cable TV, their own satellite dish, their own telephone and their own internet.
Almost all of my tenants pay for there own heat.
Most of my tenants, particularly in SFH pay for their own water, sewer and trash bills.
I have several reasons for this policy.
1. If there is a rate increase in any of the above listed "utilities" the tenant will pay that increase directly and their rent to me is still the same.
2. By providing fewer included utilities, I can keep the rent lower.
3. If there is any interruption in that service, I'm not involved.
4. When the tenant directly pays for the utility service, they tend to be more conservative in its usage, since its not free. This obviously applies to metered services like heat, electricity, water, and some sewer and trash services.
Roy N. There been a few news items here about internet users being arrested for child porn. I would not want to be the internet customer named for a tenant user's illegal activity.
David Krulac:
I have provided computer forensic services on 4 child pornography cases - back earlier in my carrier before the police services had developed in-house competency. During the forth case, I decided I would never work another as I was not able to disengage sufficiently to perform the required tasks.
These investigations often involve public wifi services, work-place networks, and ISP/Carrier infrastructure. You do not hear these folks being 'named' in the news reports ... unless it's a remark about how they cooperated with authorities during the investigation.
We make it unmistakably clear to our tenants that we are capable of monitoring network traffic to/from each individual unit in the building and will cooperate with authorities if requested.
On another note: Though we provide a "one payment" option to our tenants. Utilities are covered under a separate agreement as an addendum to the lease. We require a pre-payment of utility costs at the start of each month. We provide tenants with copies of the utility bills and every three months we reconcile their monthly payments with the amount actually billed. The the actual utilities costs were lower, we provide the option of retaining the balance in the account (for future months where utility costs will be greater) or applying the balance towards their next month's rent.
If the actual utilities costs were greater than they prepayment amount, we invoice the tenante for the balance {this has only happened once}.
I know this is an older topic, but I thought I would weigh in. I started offering internet and access to the streamed cameras I installed to new tennants. Sice I posted this in my ads the types of clients I am geting is drastically different. They are almost always employed for over a year, have careers jobs, and are college educated. It makes for a gernally more reliable tennant, but of course there is no guarantee. I charge $25.00 per apartment for the 100MB connection split to my 4 units. So it pays for itself and I was really offering it to reduce the pain the internent copmpanies inflict on people who have to rent a place. I worked it like this; 1 cable modem to a chosen apartment, lines run to each other apartment with a wifi router. I don't offer ethernet lines as I don't want to fish them in every wall. They either go wireless or nothing at all. Each device has to be added by me to the modem as they are restricted to MAC addresses only. This is like being able to offer access to only those devices with a certain finger print, so their buddy can't just come over and hop on the net, and there is no password to get out. So far this has been a big help to my tennants who just stream TV and those who are looking for a fast connection and don't want to pay out the nose for it. Also really brought up my tennant class.
I worked it like this; 1 cable modem to a chosen apartment, lines run to each other apartment with a wifi router. I don't offer ethernet lines as I don't want to fish them in every wall. They either go wireless or nothing at all. Each device has to be added by me to the modem as they are restricted to MAC addresses only. This is like being able to offer access to only those devices with a certain finger print, so their buddy can't just come over and hop on the net, and there is no password to get out. So far this has been a big help to my tennants who just stream TV and those who are looking for a fast connection and don't want to pay out the nose for it. Also really brought up my tennant class.
How long have you been doing this? The reasons you mentioned are actually the reasons I wouldn't want to provide internet. Now you have taken on the job of network administrator which can be a complete PITA when dealing with tenants who aren't really tech saavy. As a tenant I would refuse to pay for internet that I had to register each device with the "administrator" and my friends/family were not allowed to use it. What is your reasoning for restricting them by MAC addresses?
Seems like you should strive to get yourself out of the loop. L2 MAC filtering is fine, but I'd try to find some kind of authentication system that would allow guests to dynamically connect with your tenant's password or something... Administration is a pain, even with just a few devices. I'd find out how hotels handle new MAC addresses and what they do with network access authentication. That will scale and get you out of a maintenance nightmare.
Seems like you should strive to get yourself out of the loop.
This. One of my tenants wanted me to get the biggest FIOS package around and split it between all 4 units cost-wise. On paper this sounds great but, what happens when someone leaves and the next tenant doesn't want to pay for it? What happens when they can't connect, etc., etc. I don't need to make more work for myself if I can help it.
I'm not saying there aren't advantages, just that the less I'm responsible for the better!
@Mattie Covatch My initial reaction is no given the extra cost, risk and overall hassle. However, if the rental market is competitive and offering internet would set your rental apart it might be worth...especially if you can build the cost into your rent.
Seeing as this thread has been revived a year later, a little update.
We are just now installing fibre into our last building. We use the Internet access for remote communication with our building monitoring system which we have rolled out in all but one location. We will also be using it to communicate with our water sub-metering installation.
Since our bandwidth requirements are modest, we use the remaining bandwidth on the fibre (usually between 40 - 50 Mb down (10-15 Mb up) to offer complementary Internet to our tenants. The idea remains extremely popular with our student tenants and well received in general.
We had our first "issue" (in 3+ years) last month when a new tenant in our furnished {international} student house" (who's not an international student) turned out to be a big "gamer" and had both an X-box and PlayStation in his room. We started getting complaints about the "Internet being slow" - it turned out Mr. Gamer was putting the router through its paces with all the small/fragmented packets his gaming systems were throwing out {you would think by now the folks building these systems and the games themselves would have better behaved network implementations}. A simple config change on the router put the gaming traffic subservient to all other traffic and cleaned-up the problem.
I see providing Internet no different than when we pass through, or carry, any other utility.
@Mattie Covatch sure you can provide it in any number of scenarios. A couple that come to mind:
- if your competition is doing it
- if your competition isn't doing it. Then you can negotiate with an internet provider and see if you can get a profit share with them based on how many you sign up
I don't provide any internet to my SFR tenants.
However, I am considering offering internet services on multifamily. Not looking to gain income from it, but just as a differentiator in my offerings.
Let's for one moment cast aside the liability issues such as software, music, movie pirating, child porn access, or even someone viewing a site on how to make a bomb...let's put these aside because there are solutions and layers to those.
One issue I run into frequently is often time internet and cable TV are thought of as one in the same. In other words, if you offer JUST internet, it is nice, kind of. If you offer both, then it's capital letters NICE. Reason is when you offer internet and they still have to do a cable TV account, often times the cost saving to the tenant is small. A cable TV account may cost them $69 a month, but if they bundle in internet it may be only $79 or $89. The same would be if you offer cable TV only but no internet. May be for students who are streaming 99% of their viewing content to their computer cable is not necessary, for the most part my typical tenant profile still desire cable TV.
So I find myself on the fence as offering just internet is not a big differentiator. I have to offer both cable TV and internet.
Anyone currently offering both to their tenants?
I know someone who is a landlord in a duplex, he lives on one side and a tenant on the other. He just run a CAT5e cable and a coax cable to his tenant. The modem is in the common laundry room so both can access to reboot. His tenant has his own WIFI router so they have their individual WIFI access. However I believe this is against Comcast policy - I am not sure - I think your Comcast account technically is for one house hold. One headache he has is his tenant would order cable programs, pay per view boxing matches, special games and movies, and he would have to bill his tenant for this stuff separately, and of course if his tenant downloads pirated content he would be on the hook.
By the way, if you offer internet and are worried about having to do tech support and 2am, configuration issues, and liability, I wonder if these companies that offer "landlord internet" solutions are useful. I just googled it and there are a number of these apartment internet solutions, landlord internet solutions, one such example is www.landlordbroadband.com, I know nothing of these services and what they charge, if anyone is using them would appreciate some input.
We do not bundle IPTv services to our tenants (save in our rooming house), but if they wish to add the television service to the existing FibreOp Internet drop, we will have the service turned-on and add the monthly cost under our Utilities Budget Agreement {essentially, the incremental cost - ~$50/month - is passed through to the tenant}.
We're considering offering internet and TV in our multifamily properties because we are fed up with the different telecommunication companies and their crazy ways of installing services. Too many wires, holes, dishes, poles, etc. going into crawl spaces, into attics, over gutters, over fences, popping through walls, popping through floors, etc. You get the picture. If we hire a technician to rip out all the junk and rewire in a sensible way we could improve the functionality and looks of the property.
The problem still remains... some tenants want the programming offered by specific companies. Some of our tenants want specific language stations, or specific sports stations, or movies, or only child appropriate programming, etc. The TV side seems to be the tougher nut to crack.
We're considering offering internet and TV in our multifamily properties because we are fed up with the different telecommunication companies and their crazy ways of installing services. Too many wires, holes, dishes, poles, etc. going into crawl spaces, into attics, over gutters, over fences, popping through walls, popping through floors, etc. You get the picture. If we hire a technician to rip out all the junk and rewire in a sensible way we could improve the functionality and looks of the property.
The problem still remains... some tenants want the programming offered by specific companies. Some of our tenants want specific language stations, or specific sports stations, or movies, or only child appropriate programming, etc. The TV side seems to be the tougher nut to crack.
Marcia,
When we renovate a property, we run CAT-5e cabling to each unit (bedrooms, living room, den/office) all pulled back to the mechanical room. If there are existing coaxial cable runs to each unit, we will leave them provided they were properly installed (not drilled in through the external walls, or up through the floors, of the individual units).
Most telecommunications providers these days have terminal equipment capable of converting their drop signal (fibre, coaxial cable, or DSL {POTS line}) to an IP-based service over Ethernet. We provide them with a conduit into the mechanical room and mounting space for their equipment. That is the edge of their installation, they install no cabling/wiring within the property itself.
We have a "no holes" standing policy on-file with each of the telecommunications providers that they are not to install services at any of our properties without our written consent. A couple of years ago, a technician violated these standing orders and drilled a hole though new siding on one of our properties - despite there being an existing conduit with pull right next to his hole. The telecommunications company ended-up paying to have the siding removed from the side of the house, the damaged piece replaced (as well as resealing the building envelope), and the siding re-installed.
If you have the entire building completely required and clearly labeled what goes where, the utility technician may be agreeable to use what you provide. However, more often than not, when we acquire a small multi family say 4. 6. or 8 units, you already inherit a bunch of pre-existing installations, coax, CAT, old phone wires, some being used, some abandoned (but you don't know they are), and they all go into the dark attic.
Unless one is willing to leave all that in place, and install brand new home run wiring to all those locations but leave them unused until there is a vacancy when you can properly enter the unit to do all the hook up properly, it is not an easy thing to plan. Furthermore, some cable companies will insist on using their own run of their own wiring to the actual cable box, partly because they don't want to trouble shoot something not working which may include a piece of wire not put in by them that may or may not work, but also they want to make sure they know how many splits you have, to how many TV sets, as in some locales they can charge you more if you split the signals and use cheap Chinese knock off converters and descramblers.
I see some buildings with a satellite dish or two attached to each balcony. Yuk!
Also some folks like the traditional land line phones to supply their DSL internet.
When we acquire a MFH, it is typically as you describe - a hodgepodge of multiple generations of wiring from different providers strung along all nature of exterior and interior surfaces with random holes drilled in through the envelope.
After we rewire one of our buildings, the resultant job quality greatly exceeds what any of the telecommunications providers subcontractors produce (most providers do not wire beyond the termination point these days). We provide a mounting surface for their termination point and a patch-panel to connect them to the internal wiring of the appropriate units.
This is a typical approach for commercial properties, so really should come as no surprise to the telecommunication providers' technicians. We do not give the provider the option to run cabling within the building itself and none have insisted upon being able to so do. If they did make a fuss, there are plenty of competitors who would be glad to have the business.
BTW: Coaxial cable is an expiring technology incapable of meeting the bandwidth demands of new communications services. If it weren't for the inertia of existing infrastructure, the cable companies would have abandoned it already ... you will not see any startup providers using coaxial cabling.