Tenant wanting to do bathroom renovation?

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Tenant wanting to do bathroom renovation?

Leah Woods
Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 2 votes

Hi All,

I am a relatively new landlord. I have a duplex in NH and the new tenant has asked if she could do renovation in the bathroom in her unit. She wants to either move the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other, OR swap out the vanity for a pedestal sink. I believe that this would improve the space for future tenants, but my first inclination is that this is too complicated and opens up a "can of worms". She has said she'd be willing to spend up to $1000  (her money and not be reimbursed) on the work, including fixing the laminate on the floor, painting the wall, etc.

Does anyone think this is a reasonable thing to let a tenant do? or are there legal issues I'm not aware of that could affect me?

thank you for all advice!

Leah

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Account Closed
Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Leah Woods:

Hi All,

I am a relatively new landlord. I have a duplex in NH and the new tenant has asked if she could do renovation in the bathroom in her unit. She wants to either move the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other, OR swap out the vanity for a pedestal sink. I believe that this would improve the space for future tenants, but my first inclination is that this is too complicated and opens up a "can of worms". She has said she'd be willing to spend up to $1000  (her money and not be reimbursed) on the work, including fixing the laminate on the floor, painting the wall, etc.

Does anyone think this is a reasonable thing to let a tenant do? or are there legal issues I'm not aware of that could affect me?

thank you for all advice!

Leah

Moving a toilet from one side of the room to another can't be done for $1000. You have water coming in to feed the toilet and drinage going out. It requires ripping the wall out, running new waterlines and drainage in the bathroom, and repairing. The drain has a vent pipe that goes up the wall and it may need to be relocated as well. Sinks and tubs and toilets have  required "space between fixtures clearances" you have to abide by when installing new fixtures. It would have to be inspected to be sure it's done properly.

To remove a vanity and replace with a pedestal is the cost of the pedestal, cost of replumbing under the sink and fixing the floor to look natural and might be able to be done for $1000 depending on scope of work and what mold/rotted wood issues arise in the walls and floor.

 She will have her friend do the work (a qualified plumber won't do that extensive of work for $1000). So, make sure you get a copy of the friend's plumbing license, and insurance for your files. The work may not be covered under your insurance policy if it leaks in the furture, if it isn't done by you or a licensed plumber and inspected.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    5y

    If she's willing to pay that much, it's worth negotiating. My personal opinion is that I don't want tenants doing work unless I know they are fully capable. Instead of her doing the work, why not hire a contractor and let her pay the first $1,000 and you pay the remainder? That ensures it's done properly, saves her time, and you get a renovated bathroom that's done correctly but on the cheap.

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    7Reply
  • Leah Woods
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    5y
    Hi Nathan, Yes would not actually do the work, she would hire someone. You're right, it would be nice to have the bathroom look "better", I just wasn't sure about the legality of a project like this. I want to make sure there is no way, this could end up being a huge headache for me.....
    1Reply
  • Kris L.
    San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 930 posts · 836 votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods

    To cover the legal side, at a minimum you want everything written down, and all work to be licensed (especially plumbing). This isn’t to be taken as legal advice, just common sense CYA type stuff.

    1Reply
  • Brian Merzlock
    Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    5y

    "workmanlike manner" is the term we typically use in our legal docs to define that it should be done to a professional level, also the plumbing should definitely be done by a licensed contractor.  

    0Reply
  • Leah Woods
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    5y
    Great, thank you everyone. This is helpful.
    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Leah Woods:

    Hi All,

    I am a relatively new landlord. I have a duplex in NH and the new tenant has asked if she could do renovation in the bathroom in her unit. She wants to either move the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other, OR swap out the vanity for a pedestal sink. I believe that this would improve the space for future tenants, but my first inclination is that this is too complicated and opens up a "can of worms". She has said she'd be willing to spend up to $1000  (her money and not be reimbursed) on the work, including fixing the laminate on the floor, painting the wall, etc.

    Does anyone think this is a reasonable thing to let a tenant do? or are there legal issues I'm not aware of that could affect me?

    thank you for all advice!

    Leah

     No. Don't do it bro.

    2Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    Not a chance... don't even entertain the thought.

    If you want to do a remodel on vacancy- do it... A tenant starting to talk about moving a sewer and water hook-up from one side of the room to another is, by itself, a cost that won't be recouped in her tenancy.

    You should fix the floor, laminate is an easy-peasey item to buy and work with. That is on you.

    4Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Leah Woods:

    Hi All,

    I am a relatively new landlord. I have a duplex in NH and the new tenant has asked if she could do renovation in the bathroom in her unit. She wants to either move the toilet from one side of the bathroom to the other, OR swap out the vanity for a pedestal sink. I believe that this would improve the space for future tenants, but my first inclination is that this is too complicated and opens up a "can of worms". She has said she'd be willing to spend up to $1000  (her money and not be reimbursed) on the work, including fixing the laminate on the floor, painting the wall, etc.

    Does anyone think this is a reasonable thing to let a tenant do? or are there legal issues I'm not aware of that could affect me?

    thank you for all advice!

    Leah

    Moving a toilet from one side of the room to another can't be done for $1000. You have water coming in to feed the toilet and drinage going out. It requires ripping the wall out, running new waterlines and drainage in the bathroom, and repairing. The drain has a vent pipe that goes up the wall and it may need to be relocated as well. Sinks and tubs and toilets have  required "space between fixtures clearances" you have to abide by when installing new fixtures. It would have to be inspected to be sure it's done properly.

    To remove a vanity and replace with a pedestal is the cost of the pedestal, cost of replumbing under the sink and fixing the floor to look natural and might be able to be done for $1000 depending on scope of work and what mold/rotted wood issues arise in the walls and floor.

     She will have her friend do the work (a qualified plumber won't do that extensive of work for $1000). So, make sure you get a copy of the friend's plumbing license, and insurance for your files. The work may not be covered under your insurance policy if it leaks in the furture, if it isn't done by you or a licensed plumber and inspected.

    8Reply
  • Jill F.
    Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y
    I would never let a tenant control a renovation on one of my properties. I usually won't even reno at all with a tenant in place because your workers might damage their 'priceless heirlooms.'  I might agree to reno the bathroom and moving the toilet and install a new vanity and re-flooring for a super tenant if I thought it would mean extra rent in the future. I think I could get it done here for maybe 1-2k so I'd do a 36 month roi and probably charge her an extra $50 /month in rent.

    I don't want tenants feeling like they have ownership in my properties. I'd control the process and make all the design decisions and deal with my contractors. Tell her to save her $1000 and use it to cover the rent increase.

    6Reply
  • Forrest Williams
    Real Estate Agent · Chicagoland · Member since 2018 · 314 posts · 199 votes
    5y

    This is an opportunity to coordinate rather than delegate. Offer to work with the tenant to find a trusted contractor who can perform the work. I would guess this project runs over 1k, but if you want to upgrade the bathroom anyway this seems like a great opportunity to do it. That way you can keep control of the project and get yourself $1000 worth of upgrades. Your tenant will probably be much happier too.

    0Reply
  • Dawn P.
    Rental Property Investor · Sumter, SC · Member since 2015 · 334 posts · 531 votes
    5y

    Absolutely not. Moving toilets and plumbing is costly, and pedestal sinks are pretty but you'll lose storage. I *might* go for fresh paint and flooring if it was really worn, but I'm assuming they viewed the place before they signed the lease so they rented it in that condition. 

    If you say yes they'll be wanting to remodel your kitchen to their liking next. Don't do it.

    3Reply
  • Leah Woods
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    5y
    Thank you all, I appreciate the feedback.
    0Reply
  • Eddie SomervillePro Member
    Member since 2021 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    5y

    You're going to need permitting to move plumbing. From personal experience, it will cost more than $1k to get all that done, even with the tenant helping out. Furthermore, if your tenant decides she doesn't want to complete the project -- you're kind of in a terrible situation.

    I would wait to do it yourself when you have a vacancy.

    1Reply
  • Genny Li
    Baltimore, MD · Member since 2018 · 431 posts · 281 votes
    5y

    She is on crack if she thinks she is hiring that out for $1000. $300 minimum for a small vanity that is tenant friendly. $100 for toilet. $100 for new faucet and various bits. Plumber can be anywhere from $500 to $1500. Then you have flooring, drywall, paint, trim, the electrician for moving the vanity light, the new vanity light, upgrading the outlets/circuits if needed (bathrooms now have an extra circuit), and are you up to code on ventilation? You touch it, you bring it up to code. 

    3Reply
  • Scott M.
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Honestly, it would be a hard no unless she is paying our contractors to do the work.  This is a disaster in the making no matter if this is her or her friends who may or may not be contractors.  Moving toilet location is not a simple / quick job.  Lots of plumbing, flooring, tying back into the stack or moving it etc....just way to much to trust to unknown people.  Potential liability for you as well.

    If she wants to contribute and you are comfortable with that situation that is another story, but actually doing work.  Not a chance.  

    1Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods  it won't be done for $1000 but here are a few thoughts.  For moving the toilet does she have another toilet in her unit?  she will be without a toilet for a bit to do this. For replacing the sink with a pedestal sink, is there other storage in the bathroom?  I have some tiny baths and we have mounted wall cabinets to make up the vanity space and used pedestal sinks for a less tight entry, So if you lose a vanity you need somewhere to put stuff. 

    The  reason to do it is if you would do it anyway or she has mobility issues to be accommodated.  In that case you would do it anyway I would find someone you trust to do it and do it while she was on vacation or something. If this is someone with mobility issues you should try to accommodate since ADA might be applicable but in that case she would be obligated to pay for modification.  It doesnt sound like the later situation applies but thought it worth mentioning.

    1Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    5y

    Not only no, but hell no....! a) you're giving the tenant way too much input and control over YOUR property, like @Account Closed said, next they'll want to redo the kitchen...

    You'll need some basic drawings for this to get your permit from the city. Which you absolutely will need. And of course she's going to use a licensed contractor that you will choose, right? You need to get the permit since you're the owner...and meet the inspector with the card.....You didn't even say if this was a wood or slab floor......if it's concrete, moving the drain just became a nightmare.

    This feels like a $5000 job to me. Her $1000 offer is nice, but worthless.

    1Reply
  • Curtis Mears
    Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 596 votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods

    I would not let her do the work unless that is her profession. However, I would hire a professional and she pays the 1st $1,000 and I would cover the remaining.

    0Reply
  • Gail K.
    Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    The fact that she thinks she can move a toilet from one side of the bathroom to another is a clear indication that she has no concept of the cost and the time involved to do this.

    You indicated this is a new tenant.  Therefore this is not a bathroom that she has "lived with" for a while and now wants a fresh change.  I think if you agree to this you may possibly need to be prepared for a whole lot of "remodeling" requests from this tenant during her tenancy.  Planning on new kitchen cabinets, new paint, perhaps a new type of flooring?

    Tell her no on the bathroom project (one is tempted to suggest that when she buys her own home she can remodel it to her hearts content) and later on if you wish to do this project do it when the unit is empty.

    Gail

    2Reply
  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods

    There's always this "piling on" effect in the forums when subsequent commentators try to outdo the existing comments in support of or in opposition to an idea. Approval always becomes more or and more enthusiastic, and disapproval always becomes more and more withering and pointed. I don't want to contribute to that.

    It's a very bad idea, pure and simple. It shows a dangerous ignorance about how houses work and what things cost. You're going to have to watch this tenant carefully. This sort of thing usually starts with a request to paint. This one really reached for the brass ring.

    3Reply
  • Leah Woods
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 2 votes
    5y

    Thank you Jim. K.

    1Reply
  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods

    It's tough getting started, Leah. You have my sympathies. Stick with it, and us. As long as you take our advice with a grain of salt and pay attention to who says what over time, access to these forums can be the difference between success and failure for a new landlord.

    0Reply
  • Rik HunterBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2020 · 107 posts · 62 votes
    5y

    Being mostly still a rookie, myself, I'd never give the tenant that kind of control. Attention to detail matters, and I've gone through a few handymen and done the work myself (complex plumbing and electrical is beyond my skills).

    Get some quotes and find someone to do the work . . . but only with you factoring in the quotes and telling her that her rent will be raised to cover the costs. 

    Podcast Guest on Show Finance Friday: Can I Live in Flip My Way to FI at 55 Years Old?
    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:

    You're going to have to watch this tenant carefully. This sort of thing usually starts with a request to paint. This one really reached for the brass ring.

     Bingo!

    0Reply
  • Justin Berst
    Investor · Ada, OK · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 2 votes
    5y

    @Leah Woods

    No, I wouldn’t do it. Just for work in Oklahoma by a licensed plumber it’s basically $1,100 per fixture for new, which is what I would call making a new toilet location. Then add the cost of the fixture and flooring flooring. That’s just for starters. Sorry, I don’t want to be negative but this would be a hard pass for me.

    1Reply
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