How do you guys go about Popcorn/Asbestos Ceilings?
New to Real Estate · Greater Seattle Area · Member since 2021 · 50 posts · 16 votes
How do you guys go about Popcorn/Asbestos Ceilings?
Most Popular Reply
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
5yOriginally posted by @Trevor Murphy:
Do you guys pay to get popcorn ceilings with asbestos removed? or do you guys do it yourself?
Is there any advantage or benefit to having it done professionally and providing paperwork to an appraiser during a re-appraisal?
I would never touch an asbestos ceiling or consider doing it myself. I would hire a professional remediation company to remove it properly and safely. I have known multiple people that died from lung cancer due to asbestos.
Also be aware not all popcorn ceiling has asbestos, so have it tested.
52 Replies
- 5yMatthew Irish-JonesBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Trevor Murphy if the ceilings are high enough dry over it.
Irish Jones Realty4.948 Reviews - New to Real Estate · Greater Seattle Area · Member since 2021 · 50 posts · 16 votes5y
Iv already removed the asbestos in this current house. I had an abatement company do the work. They removed 1000sq ft at $4 ft.
I am currently looking at another house with asbestos on the top floor. Its a hoarder house, does anyone have experience good or bad with flipping or BRRRR hoarder houses?
- Rental Property Investor · MI · Member since 2019 · 192 posts · 205 votes5y
@Trevor Murphy if it’s asbestos, do not touch it, get it professionally removed. Period. Just trust me.
- 5yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Originally posted by @Genny Li:
PEX is a top modern system when done end-run into a manifold with zero connections behind drywall. It will outlast copper in acid water systems by decades, and it has more freeze resistance than anything,Yes but rodents will eat it in a crawlspace and walls. Ask me how I know......
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Genny Li:
PEX is a top modern system when done end-run into a manifold with zero connections behind drywall. It will outlast copper in acid water systems by decades, and it has more freeze resistance than anything,Yes but rodents will eat it in a crawlspace and walls. Ask me how I know......
Oh nooooooooooo.....
- 5yJim KalishPro MemberReal Estate Investor · Matthews, NC · Member since 2017 · 219 posts · 173 votes
@Trevor Murphy as you can see the consensus is to either leave it, cover it or have a professional remove it. This is great advice. Unlike a lot of the rules out there, the one that says having asbestos removed (abated) by a trained and qualified professional is one of the ones I would never ignore. Someone who isn't trained removes the asbestos thy run the risk of contaminating the entire house. So if its in good shape you can just leave it. But in most states you will have to disclose. So that could impact your price or at least how long it takes to sell or rent. Covering it is probably the most cost effective way to handle it. Putting up so 3/8" drywall over it looks better (if you're not a fan of popcorn) and not only takes away the stigma but protects you in the future if its a rental. Even if the ceiling is OK the day you rent it a simple roof leak or something else that causes the asbestos to become friable (loose in the air) you could easily be held accountable. So look beyond the upfront cost at the long term bigger picture. Even if its a flip your reputation is on the line.
Originally posted by @John Clark:
No, Jenni and Joe, I meant PEX.
First, PEX, as several web sites have pointed out: More susceptible to contamination. Water contamination caused by PEX tubing can come from both the material of the tube itself and any chemical materials in the surrounding area.
Note the "material of the tube itself" -- that's a hard pass for me right there. There's also the bit about rodents chewing through PEX after being attracted to it by the sound of rushing water.
Second, Genni, I question your statement about PEX lasting longer. Everything I've seen is that copper lasts longer than PEX except in very acidic water. Acidic water in modern "city water" systems is unusual, and you have the problem of leaching PEX chemicals into the water with acid water systems.
Third, from what I've read, PEX lasts (estimated, it's too new vis-a-vis use in water systems) maybe 50 years. Copper has an expected life of at least 75 years. CAN copper fail early? Sure, but for most everybody, copper is good for over 75 years. PEX can fail early, too.
All in all, PEX is too new and has too many real and potential problems. No pun intended, but copper is the gold standard for water systems. When PEX has been studied more -- especially PEX that has aged in place for more than 50 years, then I'll consider it. Until then, I'm not going to poison tenants or buyers in order to save money on installation.My pinhole leaks in my 50-year-old house....after the previous owner had fixed a bunch of pinhole leaks when the house was about 35 years old...would like to talk to you about that 75 year statement. lol.
PEX is inert and doesn't poison anyone. But PEX is not inherently anti-microbial, as copper is. If you have baddies in your water, PEX will give them a surface to grow on. So will your HW tank, BTW, unless you have it at +140 degrees with a mixing valve, like I do for my personal house. I've had my water tested, and the only thing in it doesn't hurt people, only munches on iron, so I'm good. :)
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Genny Li:
PEX is a top modern system when done end-run into a manifold with zero connections behind drywall. It will outlast copper in acid water systems by decades, and it has more freeze resistance than anything,Yes but rodents will eat it in a crawlspace and walls. Ask me how I know......
There it is, the last valid reason to stick with copper, especially in an aging urban setting, close-set balloon-framed single-family homes marching down a residential street.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
If you check the internet, PEX has been around since 1960 and was approved for use in California in something like 1999.
There are millions of miles of PEX in homes, hotels, commercial buildings and I never ever heard of a problem with PEX with the exception of one or a few companies that make PEX called Kitec. That particular type of PEX was two layers of PEX with aluminum sandwiched in the middle. The aluminum was supposed to make the PEX rodent-proof, but the idiots that made the PEX did not realize that hot water would cause the layers of PEX to separate from the aluminum and then leak.
I just sold 24 homes in Las Vegas and several of them had the supposedly bad KITEC pex and not one home had any signs where the PEX was separating from the aluminum. Some of the buyers were aware that the homes had KITEC PEX and they purchased the homes, anyway.
I am a plumbing contractor and started using PEX in about 2000. We install PEX in homes, hotels, commercial buildings and I never had one problem with the exception of only one job where mice (or rats) ate about 4 holes in the PEX only a few days after we installed it, but we made the repairs and never had one leak after installing hundreds of miles of the PEX piping.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
How did we get into talking about PEX?
As for popcorn ceilings, I am a licensed asbestos abatement contractor and breathing in asbestos is serious, but even the licensed asbestos contractors don't use any special equipment or skills to remove popcorn ceilings. We use a respirator with two HEPA filters, seal the doorways inside the house, remove everything from the room, cover walls and floors with plastic and we wet the ceilings with a garden hose or HUDSON SPRAYER 4 to 5 times until the popcorn turns to mush. We scrape all the popcorn from the ceilings with a 4 to 5 inch putty knife in less than 10 minutes. Sometimes, when the popcorn ceiling has been painted it takes a little more time for the water to penetrate through the paint. Then, we add dish soap to the water and put hot water in the sprayer.
I love to remove popcorn ceilings and wallpaper because I've been doing it for more than 50 years and I can remember 50 years ago when I worked companies that uses steam machines and getting paper off a room was cumbersome, took an entire day and then all the walls were scratched and messed.. When you use only water with soap in it and you wet the popcorn or wallpaper and wait you can remove the wallpaper and popcorn ceiling in a room in less than 30 minutes after the walls and ceilings are wet enough.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
I tried putting 1/4 and 1/2 inch drywall over popcorn ceilings and it takes many times longer to hang the drywall, tape it several times and the work takes much more time and the cost is many times more expensive. It is simple to hang drywall over bare studs, but it is difficult to hang drywall over popcorn ceilings when you can't see the exact (or close) center of the ceiling rafters.
- Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Genny Li:
PEX is inert and doesn't poison anyone.
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Uh, no.
"One of Whelton’s research studies, published in 2014, was the first US study on the effects multiple PEX pipes have on the quality of drinking water. The team investigated tap water quality in a new PEX plumbing system, and examined the odor quality and chemical impacts of six PEX pipe brands (more than 70 have been certified by the IAW NSFI/ANSI Standard 61 as safe for drinking water). Whelton and his team discovered eleven PEX-related contaminants in the plumbing system: one, toluene, was regulated, and several were unregulated, including resin solvents, manufacturing aides, initiator degradation products, and antioxidant degradation products.
For 30 days, the team monitored new PEX pipes, both with disinfectant (chlorine) and without disinfectant, for water chemical and odor quality. Over that course of time, both odor and total organic carbon (TOC) levels dropped for all of the pipes. However, odor levels remained higher than levels recommended by the EPA. The observed odors were not caused by known sources, methyl-tert-butyl ether (MTBE) or ethyl-tert-butyl ether (ETBE).
In all, 16 organic chemicals were identified, including 2,4-di-tert-butylphenol, methylene trichloroacetate, pyridine, and toluene. The team detected some of the organic chemicals during their field investigation of the plumbing system. Whelton and the other researchers concluded that users should flush out pipes before using them, because they are not cleaned sufficiently before they’re used by consumers.
Moving toward workable solutions
Tasha Stoiber, a senior scientist at the Environmental Working Group, comments on the potential for ongoing risks after the pipes are flushed and long-term exposure to PEX pipes.
“We don’t have clear answers here yet as there are not a lot of long-term data,” Stoiber explains. “From Dr. Whelton’s studies, chemicals were still leaching from some PEX pipes after 30 days leading to measurements above EPAs odor threshold and with similar findings in field studies from samples from homes where pipes were 1 and 2 years old. It’s also difficult to characterize the risk, because many of the leaching chemicals measured are unknown.”"
Source: https://www.fondriest.com/news...
Long story short: PEX is not inert, and its widespread use is too new to know if PEX is good enough. Copper is the gold standard for plumbing.
And remove, don't just cover up, asbestos.
- 5yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
but it is difficult to hang drywall over popcorn ceilings when you can't see the exact (or close) center of the ceiling rafters.
You just identify the rafter or joist at each end and snap a chalkline. Easy stuff...
- Flipper/Rehabber · Phoenix Arizona · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 686 votes5y
Really want to put sheet rock up there ????
Buy it load it, unload it, hang it, perfi tape it, mud it,
Sand it,
Mud it,
Sand it,
Texture it.
This is crazy. Versus get a 10 inch lnife, soak it down and scrape it.
Fix small issues and texture it.
Full process for 3 rooms one day. $10. (Mud)🤪😊😏.
Other way at least $250 , 2 guys 3 hours, one guy 7 hours . 13 hours.😩😅😂
”Pretty simple Simon if you just logic it out!
Since we are talking about PEX, had a home inspector tell me last week that PEX was a negative because it leaches into the water and eventually will wear out and split and leak. First I heard of it, have done zero research on it but there you go. Everyone has an opinion.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Phoenix Arizona · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 686 votes5y
Copper over Pex. Pex is just easier to install. Plumbers do it the easy way.
Copper 50-100 years. PEX 10-20 years max
Originally posted by @John Clark:
Originally posted by @Genny Li:
PEX is inert and doesn't poison anyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, no.
"One of Whelton’s research studies, published in 2014, was the first US study on the effects multiple PEX pipes have on the quality of drinking water. The team investigated tap water quality in a new PEX plumbing system, and examined the odor quality and chemical impacts of six PEX pipe brands (more than 70 have been certified by the IAW NSFI/ANSI Standard 61 as safe for drinking water). Whelton and his team discovered eleven PEX-related contaminants in the plumbing system: one, toluene, was regulated, and several were unregulated, including resin solvents, manufacturing aides, initiator degradation products, and antioxidant degradation products.
For 30 days, the team monitored new PEX pipes, both with disinfectant (chlorine) and without disinfectant, for water chemical and odor quality. Over that course of time, both odor and total organic carbon (TOC) levels dropped for all of the pipes. However, odor levels remained higher than levels recommended by the EPA. The observed odors were not caused by known sources, methyl-tert-butyl ether (MTBE) or ethyl-tert-butyl ether (ETBE).
In all, 16 organic chemicals were identified, including 2,4-di-tert-butylphenol, methylene trichloroacetate, pyridine, and toluene. The team detected some of the organic chemicals during their field investigation of the plumbing system. Whelton and the other researchers concluded that users should flush out pipes before using them, because they are not cleaned sufficiently before they’re used by consumers.
Moving toward workable solutions
Tasha Stoiber, a senior scientist at the Environmental Working Group, comments on the potential for ongoing risks after the pipes are flushed and long-term exposure to PEX pipes.
“We don’t have clear answers here yet as there are not a lot of long-term data,” Stoiber explains. “From Dr. Whelton’s studies, chemicals were still leaching from some PEX pipes after 30 days leading to measurements above EPAs odor threshold and with similar findings in field studies from samples from homes where pipes were 1 and 2 years old. It’s also difficult to characterize the risk, because many of the leaching chemicals measured are unknown.”"
Source: https://www.fondriest.com/news...
Long story short: PEX is not inert, and its widespread use is too new to know if PEX is good enough. Copper is the gold standard for plumbing.
And remove, don't just cover up, asbestos.
I've requested the full paper through ResearchGate, but the abstract is not as concerning as the headline makes it sound. I do take persistent hormone-affecting plastics very seriously, but the scare paragraphs are really, really not reflected in the abstract. I'll post if they grant access. I've requested it as a landlord. :)
I always use Uponor, not the cheap stuff, and I have copper to the mixing valve on the one in my house, which is the only one I've had installed where the water heater is set high. Since the two case conditions for concern appear to be soon after installation and use with excessively hot water, we will see what the actual paper says.
Originally posted by @Scott M.:
Since we are talking about PEX, had a home inspector tell me last week that PEX was a negative because it leaches into the water and eventually will wear out and split and leak. First I heard of it, have done zero research on it but there you go. Everyone has an opinion.
Home inspectors often give very bad advice. Just in general.
- Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
but it is difficult to hang drywall over popcorn ceilings when you can't see the exact (or close) center of the ceiling rafters.
You just identify the rafter or joist at each end and snap a chalkline. Easy stuff...
"Easier said than done"
Maybe, I am just a complainer. It seems like every time I hung drywall over existing plaster or drywall I had trouble catching the wood around the outside edges even with long drywall screws. I love to hang drywall and tape, but every time I want to hang the stuff I removed everything to the studs. Just my stubborn ways!
Here a the review of the PEX study from NSF: https://d2evkimvhatqav.cloudfr...
It honestly seemed awfully hinky to me just from the abstract. It looked like they did some creative parameter establishment to get publishable results. Again, I'm jumpy about "forever chemicals" from plastics, but on a read through, it seemed like scaremongering on the order of reporting that copper pipes' metal leaching (and they do leach copper) and the lead in flux is enough to make your babies all low IQ--like the EPA scare that managed to get high levels of lead by carefully capturing the very first bit of water out of a faucet after it had been sitting for a while and not capturing a reasonable representation of the percentage in what a kid would get at a water fountain, for instance.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
but it is difficult to hang drywall over popcorn ceilings when you can't see the exact (or close) center of the ceiling rafters.
You just identify the rafter or joist at each end and snap a chalkline. Easy stuff...
"Easier said than done"
Maybe, I am just a complainer. It seems like every time I hung drywall over existing plaster or drywall I had trouble catching the wood around the outside edges even with long drywall screws. I love to hang drywall and tape, but every time I want to hang the stuff I removed everything to the studs. Just my stubborn ways!
You make structural engineers smile at keeping a nice fat safety margin in their dead load calcs. loooool.
- Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
"the lead in flux is enough to make your babies all low IQ...."
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Leaded/tin solder has been banned from plumbing applications since 1974.
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