Looking for an electrician in Denver (aluminum wiring)
Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 41 posts · 17 votes
My house has aluminum wiring (one breaker is copper, the rest aluminum), a federal pacific box, and a couple other electrical projects. Everything is working perfectly for now, but I want to initiate a solution.
I'm looking for a trustworthy electrician who has experience with aluminum wiring to help get everything in a good, safe condition as i'm house hacking and will be bringing tenants in soon.
If anyone on here is an electrician that would be able to check it out, or if any Denver investors have any referrals that would be much appreciated!
Thank you in advance!
Call my buddy Gabe at City Electric.
Please do yourself a favor and get that FPE panel replaced immediately, it may appear to be working perfectly for now and there are a lot of FPE panels still in use that haven't caused fires (yet) but just want to make sure you know what you're dealing with: trust me those things are ticking time bombs. FPE Stab-Lok breakers (red strip across the front, often says Stab-Lok somewhere on the panel) have a very high chance of not tripping when shorted or overloaded. When I was selling residential solar I assessed 3-6 homes a day and often saw FPE panels with charring around where a breaker had been overheating for awhile and started arcing because it failed to trip, causing the breaker to melt and the wood framing the panel was mounted on to start burning.
I don't trust any FPE panels as besides the breakers being defective the busbars themselves have also been known to cause fires because they used a screw that was undersized to attach the busbar. I've seen breakers just fall out when opening the cover. These things are bad news.
If you ever find yourself under contract on another property with an FPE panel, I'd recommend having the seller replace it prior to closing as it's a well known and documented safety issue; textbook inspection objection item.
Also as a heads up, in the meantime before you get it replaced, if you're working on any outlets or anything in your home where you want to shut power down, just be aware that tripping the breakers may not actually de-energize the circuits!
Call my buddy Gabe at City Electric.
Please do yourself a favor and get that FPE panel replaced immediately, it may appear to be working perfectly for now and there are a lot of FPE panels still in use that haven't caused fires (yet) but just want to make sure you know what you're dealing with: trust me those things are ticking time bombs. FPE Stab-Lok breakers (red strip across the front, often says Stab-Lok somewhere on the panel) have a very high chance of not tripping when shorted or overloaded. When I was selling residential solar I assessed 3-6 homes a day and often saw FPE panels with charring around where a breaker had been overheating for awhile and started arcing because it failed to trip, causing the breaker to melt and the wood framing the panel was mounted on to start burning.
I don't trust any FPE panels as besides the breakers being defective the busbars themselves have also been known to cause fires because they used a screw that was undersized to attach the busbar. I've seen breakers just fall out when opening the cover. These things are bad news.
If you ever find yourself under contract on another property with an FPE panel, I'd recommend having the seller replace it prior to closing as it's a well known and documented safety issue; textbook inspection objection item.
Also as a heads up, in the meantime before you get it replaced, if you're working on any outlets or anything in your home where you want to shut power down, just be aware that tripping the breakers may not actually de-energize the circuits!
@Matt M. thank you for the advice! After speaking with a few electricians I think the plan is: pigtail the outlets, replace the FPE box. I will make sure to demand a permit as well! Do you have any "go to" electricians in Denver for a good price?
@Steve K. thank you for all the advice, and I completely agree. I have heard many horror stories about FPE boxes. I know it is "working fine" for now and there's no issues at this point, but I will be replacing it within the next week. At this point, my plan is to replace with a new box, and pigtail all the outlets.
I'm counting this as a learning experience, and i'll know what to do next time I encounter a property with this old electrical!
Thanks for your referral, I will give Gabe a call tomorrow for another quote.
@Matt M. Do you have any "go to" electricians in Denver for a good price?
Electrician for a good price?? In Denver??? I call that a Unicorn.
I just dumped my electrician as he wanted almost $4k to change out switches, outlets, and lights. It was 2 days worth of work. The guy before him gouged me on my personal home, so I'm out looking as well.
Pigtails is one of the recommended "repairs." IIRC they run about $25 per outlet, etc.
@Travis Hatch it would be very easy to find an electrician to re-wire the entire house, but you said everything was working fine. It sounds like you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The house has had aluminum wiring since the 1970s and it's still there. You should do some research on aluminum wiring and stop believing folk tales. If the house were going to burn down, I think it would have happened already. There are some simple maintenance things that you can do yourself to make sure the wiring is safe. There are millions of homes in America right now with aluminum wiring. Sleep well.
@Travis Hatch - I got a guy that redid my basement, changed out my panel, and fixed up my aluminum wiring as well. I'm not sure if he just gave me a great deal, but happy to pass along his info. Shoot me a text if you still need someone and I'll get it over to you.
@Steve K. thank you for all the advice, and I completely agree. I have heard many horror stories about FPE boxes. I know it is "working fine" for now and there's no issues at this point, but I will be replacing it within the next week. At this point, my plan is to replace with a new box, and pigtail all the outlets.
I'm counting this as a learning experience, and i'll know what to do next time I encounter a property with this old electrical!
Thanks for your referral, I will give Gabe a call tomorrow for another quote.
Smart move. It's crazy there are still many thousands of these things out there in the wild (millions installed originally from 1950-1980). They could be fine for another number of years, or catch on fire at any time, so I'm glad you're replacing it (the only legit solution unfortunately). $10/Amp is a fair price around here for a basic panel swap (~$2k for a new 200A panel, you might be able to get by with 150A depending on your loads). We would throw them in for free whenever a customer bought a solar system from us if they had an FPE panel or other outdated panel that wouldn't pass inspection (Zinsco's with their breakers melted to the busbar, Zinsco's rebranded as GTE-Sylvania (but not all GTE-Sylvania's), and some panels made by Challenger Electric, Westinghouse, Bryant that used a similar design as the Stab-lok/FPE for awhile but these are far less common and not all panels made by those brands are bad like FPE), split bus panels, fuse boxes, undersized 60-100A mains, etc.). Good stuff to look for during inspection.
If Gabe can't fit you in, feel free to hit me back up, I can ask some of my old solar bro's (licensed/insured Master electricians) if they're looking for side work.
@Craig Curelop will do buddy thank you!
@Steve K. right on thank you! I'll keep you posted if I get Gabe on the phone. I appreciate all the insight, this is super helpful.
@Anthony Dooley interesting, this is similar to what my inspector said, although he recommended replacing the FPE box. I hear a wide ranges of responses from investors, inspectors, and experienced electrician's alike from "ticking time bomb" to "not a big deal", so i'm trying to decide what to do. My inclination is to replace the FPE box and pigtail the outlets, and then leave the rest of it alone. From my understanding at this point that should be safe indefinitely.
@Matt M. hah! I guess i'm searching for a unicorn then :D I'm going to get a couple more quotes and move forward with replacing the FPE box and pigtailing the outlets. Maybe I could "get by" with doing nothing but i'd rather spend the money for peace of mind and if I were to sell it i'm sure the buyers would have the same concerns.
Thank you for your help here, $25/outlet is a good point of reference as well for the quote.
And hey, if I find a unicorn i'll let you know!
@Anthony Dooley interesting, this is similar to what my inspector said, although he recommended replacing the FPE box. I hear a wide ranges of responses from investors, inspectors, and experienced electrician's alike from "ticking time bomb" to "not a big deal", so i'm trying to decide what to do. My inclination is to replace the FPE box and pigtail the outlets, and then leave the rest of it alone. From my understanding at this point that should be safe indefinitely.
The issues with Aluminum wiring are a bit more complex than the FPE panel, which is cut and dry (replace asap). I have seen fires caused by aluminum wire in the field, but not nearly as frequently as FPE panels. The combination of Al wire and an FPE panel is especially concerning because Al wire is more likely to have a loose connection that will overheat to a temp that can cause combustion, and the FPE panel has a high chance of not tripping when that happens in order to prevent that overheating from continuing. So replacing the FPE panel may reduce your chances of having fire problems with the Al. However there are other issues specific to the Al. For one, it’s old. The most dangerous kind of aluminum wire was mostly only used for residential wiring from ~’65-‘73 when copper was prohibitively expensive (Al alloys that are less dangerous were used with less frequency post-‘73, and Al is still a common material for transmission and distribution lines, and even some residential use like AC units or single branch circuits, but not very common in residential wiring). So there’s a good chance aluminum still in use today is pretty old by now, and electrical systems don’t improve much with age like wine and women do (my opinion on the latter but fact-based for electrical wires and wine). So there’s that. Secondly most electrical components in use are made to be used with copper, not aluminum. Thirdly most residential electricians working today are only familiar with how to make connections with copper not Al, and Al needs to be connected a certain way to be safe. So the issues with Al are usually related to how the wiring is integrated with a system that is mostly designed for copper, by electricians that generally only work with copper. Problem areas are usually anywhere there are connections, such as at terminals or especially if new copper wires are connected to the old Al. Steel screw outlets are probably the main problem area, but anywhere connections are made can cause problems. I’ve seen holes burned through walls due to a crimp connection within the wall made improperly by a qualified electrician. Replacing wall outlets and Pigtailing properly will help as you’ll eliminate the chance that any older outlets with steel screws or with bad connections are still in use. Basically any connection is a potential fire hazard, so going through and replacing each connection is the best way to mitigate any fire risk, short of replacing all the wire with copper that is. Al expands more than copper when there is current running through it so it’s more likely to have bad connections especially by pulling out from terminal screws causing arcing and overheating. It’s also softer and breaks easier causing hot spots. Al also overheats as it oxidizes while copper does not so it’s critical to use no-ox which a lot of electricians don’t do because it’s not critical with copper. Typical basic trouble shooting is to inspect all connections, look for loose connections and oxidization, any warm receptacle plates or light switches, smells of melting wire or plastic, signs of burning/arcing/overheating such as blackened areas around receptacle boxes or anywhere there’s a connection, or flickering lights not associated with the bulb not being screwed in tightly. At the least I would find a good sparky to replace that FPE panel who is comfortable working with Al, have them replace any older receptacles as well while they’re there and just check through all the connections and do an in-depth inspection for you, or get a quote to replace all the wire with copper and make a judgement call based on that. The only way to really make it safe indefinitely though is to replace all the Al with copper. Not unlike the FPE panel, just because it has been working up until now doesn’t mean that will always be the case. Al wire has a much higher chance of causing a fire than copper which is why insurance companies don’t like it. If you literally redo all the connections, and do them properly and use plenty of no-ox then maybe that will be completely safe but if you’re redoing all the connections anyway it might make sense to just pull new wire at the same time. I would definitely at least replace any Al wire that is smaller than 8AWG as I believe that is the most dangerous.
@Anthony Dooley interesting, this is similar to what my inspector said, although he recommended replacing the FPE box. I hear a wide ranges of responses from investors, inspectors, and experienced electrician's alike from "ticking time bomb" to "not a big deal", so i'm trying to decide what to do. My inclination is to replace the FPE box and pigtail the outlets, and then leave the rest of it alone. From my understanding at this point that should be safe indefinitely.
The issues with Aluminum wiring are a bit more complex than the FPE panel, which is cut and dry (replace asap). I have seen fires caused by aluminum wire in the field, but not nearly as frequently as FPE panels. The combination of Al wire and an FPE panel is especially concerning because Al wire is more likely to have a loose connection that will overheat to a temp that can cause combustion, and the FPE panel has a high chance of not tripping when that happens in order to prevent that overheating from continuing. So replacing the FPE panel may reduce your chances of having fire problems with the Al. However there are other issues specific to the Al. For one, it’s old. The most dangerous kind of aluminum wire was mostly only used for residential wiring from ~’65-‘73 when copper was prohibitively expensive (Al alloys that are less dangerous were used with less frequency post-‘73, and Al is still a common material for transmission and distribution lines, and even some residential use like AC units or single branch circuits, but not very common in residential wiring). So there’s a good chance aluminum still in use today is pretty old by now, and electrical systems don’t improve much with age like wine and women do (my opinion on the latter but fact-based for electrical wires and wine). So there’s that. Secondly most electrical components in use are made to be used with copper, not aluminum. Thirdly most residential electricians working today are only familiar with how to make connections with copper not Al, and Al needs to be connected a certain way to be safe. So the issues with Al are usually related to how the wiring is integrated with a system that is mostly designed for copper, by electricians that generally only work with copper. Problem areas are usually anywhere there are connections, such as at terminals or especially if new copper wires are connected to the old Al. Steel screw outlets are probably the main problem area, but anywhere connections are made can cause problems. I’ve seen holes burned through walls due to a crimp connection within the wall made improperly by a qualified electrician. Replacing wall outlets and Pigtailing properly will help as you’ll eliminate the chance that any older outlets with steel screws or with bad connections are still in use. Basically any connection is a potential fire hazard, so going through and replacing each connection is the best way to mitigate any fire risk, short of replacing all the wire with copper that is. Al expands more than copper when there is current running through it so it’s more likely to have bad connections especially by pulling out from terminal screws causing arcing and overheating. It’s also softer and breaks easier causing hot spots. Al also overheats as it oxidizes while copper does not so it’s critical to use no-ox which a lot of electricians don’t do because it’s not critical with copper. Typical basic trouble shooting is to inspect all connections, look for loose connections and oxidization, any warm receptacle plates or light switches, smells of melting wire or plastic, signs of burning/arcing/overheating such as blackened areas around receptacle boxes or anywhere there’s a connection, or flickering lights not associated with the bulb not being screwed in tightly. At the least I would find a good sparky to replace that FPE panel who is comfortable working with Al, have them replace any older receptacles as well while they’re there and just check through all the connections and do an in-depth inspection for you, or get a quote to replace all the wire with copper and make a judgement call based on that. The only way to really make it safe indefinitely though is to replace all the Al with copper. Not unlike the FPE panel, just because it has been working up until now doesn’t mean that will always be the case. Al wire has a much higher chance of causing a fire than copper which is why insurance companies don’t like it. If you literally redo all the connections, and do them properly and use plenty of no-ox then maybe that will be completely safe but if you’re redoing all the connections anyway it might make sense to just pull new wire at the same time. I would definitely at least replace any Al wire that is smaller than 8AWG as I believe that is the most dangerous.
Atta boy, @Steve K. well explained.
My house has aluminum wiring (one breaker is copper, the rest aluminum), a federal pacific box, and a couple other electrical projects. Everything is working perfectly for now, but I want to initiate a solution.
I'm looking for a trustworthy electrician who has experience with aluminum wiring to help get everything in a good, safe condition as i'm house hacking and will be bringing tenants in soon.
If anyone on here is an electrician that would be able to check it out, or if any Denver investors have any referrals that would be much appreciated!
Thank you in advance!
Hey @Travis Hatch who did you end up going with for your electrical work on this? I'm currently in a similar position so looking to get estimates.
You dont need to pigtail . You can buy new outlets rated for aluminum wire . They are CO/Alr outlets . Get rid of the FP box ASAP . They have wire nuts for copper to aluminum wire , they are expensive . A box of 30 is $120
The house built in late 60s to early 70s . I would go with the new rated outlets and switches since the ones you have are probably original .