Starting Out - Organization & Legal

Starting Out - Organization & Legal

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes

Hello BP, this is my first time posting. I'm 29, live in Minneapolis with my young family in a SFR we bought in 2013, and am interested in long-term buy and hold investing. I am thinking of starting at with 4-plexes, triplexes or duplexes - units that will cash flow steadily. Would love to some day get into commercial residential or retail. My dream is to build a buisness where I can eventually outsource most of the day-to-day tasks and generate a passive income stream that allows me to stop trading time for money.

My situation is this: my parents bought the house I grew up in from my grandparents, with a family discount, and are interested in keeping it in the family going forward. It's likely we will move in the next 1-3 years, and wind up with a very nice home (600-700k) with a mortgage at what I can afford on my salary (250-300k). Thank you mom and dad! I'd like to be set up and prepared by that time to use the equity in the home to start investing in other properties. I'm also working on building a nut outside of my retirement accounts (at about 8k right now) to use for this business.

To feel confident, I want to have a solid understanding of how to set up a business, proper insurance coverage, each step in the process of making an offer through closing a deal, and a strategy for managing the property. I've been reading on BP now for about 8 months and have what I would consider a moderate foundation of knowledge, but I know I need to now take some more definite steps to get off the ground. Basically I want to build a business plan and understand all the steps from today to I'm-a-landlord-with-tenants.

Are there any buy and hold investors in south Minneapolis / Richfield that would like to connect and could share some ideas, offer guidance, or refer me to good resources?  Books that you have found helpful?  Tips for the Minneapolis market right now? I know I'm a fast learner and good problem solver and once I'm going I'll be able to grow and expand.

Thanks!

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Rental Property Investor · MN · Member since 2015 · 186 posts · 149 votes
8y

@Sean O'Brien for books I recommend:

Rich Dad Poor Dad (of course)

How to be the smartest renter on your block (a Minnesota tenants' rights guide)

The Landlord’s Guide to Minnesota Law

Multi-Family Millions (loved it)

I have mixed feelings about investing in commercial buildings. I have both - retail, as well as mixed-use (retail on main level and apartment upstairs). With retail be prepared to sit vacant for many months, possibly year(s) - and that's in good locations. Mixed-use is a little better, for example you can rent out an apartment quickly and get some money coming in, but then you'll sit a lot longer looking for a commercial tenant in that same building. 

If you're just starting out, get into a duplex, not a 4-plex, and I recommend doing property management yourself - you'll learn a lot, and no property management company will take care of your building the way you would.

One last tip - buy in great locations only. Do not compromise on location! Get pre-approved first, find an agent to work with, and keep watching MLS every few hours. Once something amazing shows up (great location and price), you have to be there within 30 min to 1 hour, and be ready to submit an offer right away. But there's a very high chance that it'll be too late because @Bruce Runn or I already got it. Just kidding, but not really.

Good luck!

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  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 15 votes
    8y

    Hey Sean! Pumped for you man. I’m just breaking in right now too. I probably can’t touch most of the questions you put in your post because of my lack of experience. But I can tell you the book list that Brandon references in his webinars has been a great starting point for me. I’ve got a couple of his books and read through a Rich Dad Poor Dad book. It sounds like you’ve been doing some reading too on BP. Anyhow if you’re looking for books that list was put together by Brandon, so we can be pretty confident in the value of the info. For what it’s worth! Excited for you man, you’ve got some great goals. 

    Nick

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Thanks Nick, I will be sure to check out those books. Good luck to you as well!

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 15 votes
    8y
  • CPA / Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 30 posts · 19 votes
    8y

    Hey @Sean O'Brien, welcome to BP and to the real estate game. I recently purchased my first duplex in Whittier and have been loving it! As Nick pointed out, Brandon's book list is a great starting place, I especially liked The Book On Managing Rental Properties. A couple of other good ones, not necessarily real estate specific, are The One Thing by Gary Keller and The 4-Hour Work Week by Tim Ferris. 

    There's also a good podcast by Clayton Morris, episode 197 of Investing in Real Estate with Clayton Morris, which talks about a bunch of legal issues. I'd check that out as well. 

    Lastly, go to some meetups and meet people. There are a lot of smart people in the game that are willing to help! There's a bi-monthly BP meetup group you can find on meetup.com, MNREIA, and others. 

    -Peter

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Looks like you posted this twice?????

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Peter Ulstad Thanks for the tips! I will look into the BP meetup, I would love to make some connections and hear from others first hand about their experiences starting out.

    @John Woodrich Yes... accidentally. Browser crapped out on me. It looks like the other one was removed, thanks (if that was you)!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien did you see my comment on the other post?  If not I can respond to this post again.  I am assuming a moderator moved it or something.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @John Woodrich Nope, I missed it! :(

  • Rental Property Investor · MN · Member since 2015 · 186 posts · 149 votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien for books I recommend:

    Rich Dad Poor Dad (of course)

    How to be the smartest renter on your block (a Minnesota tenants' rights guide)

    The Landlord’s Guide to Minnesota Law

    Multi-Family Millions (loved it)

    I have mixed feelings about investing in commercial buildings. I have both - retail, as well as mixed-use (retail on main level and apartment upstairs). With retail be prepared to sit vacant for many months, possibly year(s) - and that's in good locations. Mixed-use is a little better, for example you can rent out an apartment quickly and get some money coming in, but then you'll sit a lot longer looking for a commercial tenant in that same building. 

    If you're just starting out, get into a duplex, not a 4-plex, and I recommend doing property management yourself - you'll learn a lot, and no property management company will take care of your building the way you would.

    One last tip - buy in great locations only. Do not compromise on location! Get pre-approved first, find an agent to work with, and keep watching MLS every few hours. Once something amazing shows up (great location and price), you have to be there within 30 min to 1 hour, and be ready to submit an offer right away. But there's a very high chance that it'll be too late because @Bruce Runn or I already got it. Just kidding, but not really.

    Good luck!

  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien best advice I can give you based on your post is...

    Less books more networking.  If you have 8 months on PB you likely have more "book" knowledge than you need and you will start to paralyze yourself with analysis.  Find a good person with the business model you want and partner with them.  Yes, give up some profit to learn what they do. This will save you 10's of thousands and get you going much more quickly which can also be worth another 10K easily.  

    One book you must read that @Account Closed knows I recommend above all else is The Landlord’s Guide to Minnesota Law from www.homelinemn.org. You should not purchase in Minnesota without it.


    Cheers,

    ~Tim

  • Investor · Rochester, MN · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 37 votes
    8y

    I would be careful using the equity in the home.  Especially if you want to keep the home in the family.  What if something happens to the market and you bought at the wrong time.  Are you prepared to possibly lose the house?  Make sure you analyze your risk and think about using the funds you will get when you sell your house from your 2013 home purchase.  This did happen to my grandparents and they lost the family farm.  We did end up getting it back almost 10 years later.

    Have you analyzed the current housing cycle and where we are at in it? To me it is at or near the peak. I am not saying you shouldn't buy or can't find a deal.  Just use what you have learned, find a mentor and analyze your risk of using the family house.

    Best of Luck!

  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    8y
    I agree with Pavel Ushakov as far as being ready to see a property right away. We have some clients that are really interested in buying a property a week after I send it to them and don’t understand that in the first 24 hours good properties have contracts, or are asking for highest and best within 72 hours. Start with small properties first, preferably in a good area. You don’t want to start with a difficult rental on your first purchase. When you are looking at properties know the average rents around the area and if you don’t know much about construction either have an agent that does, or bring a friend/relative that does. I would spend more time with your insurance agent making sure you have good coverage and less with your attorney working on LLCs. But with our larger investors they usually will put properties into LLCs and pay rent to the holding company LLC. Be sure to have a mentor to help you navigate the process of renting out your property. Most of our investors have a friend that is experienced, for those that don’t we provide them with a new landlord packet and give them advice before and after the sale. There are fair housing laws you need to be aware of as well as legal requirements relating to tenants.
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Thank you all for the great responses and insights. Seriously - these are just the kind of things I hoped to read when posting!

    @Account Closed So is it best/possible to operate with no level of business entity on a first purchase? And just pick up a personal umbrella liability policy? That would appeal to me, and seem simplest. I will have to look into it more - I just would want to have an understanding of what to expect (i.e. tax implications - Does it all go on a Schedule E?) and how it would all work.

    Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate you all taking the time to add your thoughts and knowledge to this thread.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien I tried finding my lengthy post on your other thread but it appears it was deleted with your post.  A lot of what I was saying is mentioned above.  It sounds like you are a very analytical person and it is good that you want to try and figure everything out but I think this will end up holding you back.  It is important to think about all areas of the investment before jumping in but some areas are not as important as others.  I would first focus on getting to know the area you want to invest in, if you can't spot a deal you will never get one.  Then I would figure out financing and connect with a realtor.  The tax, legal, and insurance information is all a byproduct of having property.  There are things to consider however it doesn't make a lot of sense spending time here until you have a property you are purchasing.  

  • Rental Property Investor · MN · Member since 2015 · 186 posts · 149 votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien yup Korean BBQ building is mine

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Sean O'Brien:

    @Amber Gonion So is it best/possible to operate with no level of business entity on a first purchase? And just pick up a personal umbrella liability policy? That would appeal to me, and seem simplest. I will have to look into it more - I just would want to have an understanding of what to expect (i.e. tax implications - Does it all go on a Schedule E?) and how it would all work.

    Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate you all taking the time to add your thoughts and knowledge to this thread.

    You don't need a legal entity, most people don't operate with them.  Whether you want an umbrella policy depends on how much risk you are taking on and what you have to lose.  Income is income, expense is expense, the moment you start digging into which tax line income will be shown on is a clear indication that you are digging too far!!!  We can't buy more time, I would try spending your time on learning the market as that will take time.  Simple tax or legal questions can be handled by whomever your advisor is, with limited time involvement.

    And to answer your tax question - your rental income or loss will end up on line 17 of the front page of your 1040 regardless of which entity (or none) that you decide upon.  The schedules in the back of your return may be different.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @John Woodrich Thank you John I really appreciate the thoughts and advice. I was initially looking in the Powederhown area of Minneapolis but have now shifted to more Richfield & Bloomington. You're right that I need to know how to recognize a good deal in order to get started.

    The replies here have already given me some confidence and provided answeres to some of my unknowns. Onward to lining up the financing and finding the right deal :)

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien, @Amber Gonion, @Account Closed

    I'm going to echo what Amber and Pavel mentioned about being ready to pounce on a property.  I put one of my properties in Uptown and had an offer in 1 day at $10,000 over asking price.  There is too much competition to not have everything prepared.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 28 votes
    8y

    @Sean O'Brien an interesting strategy for you might be leveraging an additional dwelling unit. If the house you are going to be moving to has a detached garage you could build out an additional unit on top of it and have your 2nd rental unit nearly immediately at a much lower price point while adding value to your family home. 

    I agree with what many others have said. Buy in great areas, network with people that have done it, be ready to jump on a deal when you see one, and lastly don't have analysis paralysis. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Kevin Powell my caution in doing what you are saying is that it would affect his personal enjoyment of the house by having to share the driveway, may lose his garage, and it wouldn't be easy to run sewer lines, etc.  I am sure his house isn't zoned for 2 units and if he is in a nice area I doubt the planning commission would approve the use...  Could call it a mother-in-law apartment but he may not be able to get a rental license if the zoning isn't correct.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 48 posts · 28 votes
    8y

    @John Woodrich. The zoning is covered for the ADU ordinace the city passed a couple years ago. That gives owner occupants a specific advantage that his family could take advantage of. You don't need the planning commission and all the other hoopla that your average non owner occupying investor would need to go through. If that is a long term family home that he plans to occupy then he has that option. 

    I agree with you that the configuration, layout, price, etc. might limit what he is able to do. If it was me, and I had a detached garage facing an alley, I would be looking into this personally. 

    I am hopeful the city council examines the ADU ordinace and opens it up to non owner occupants. They talk all the time about affordable housing. You can make housing more affordable by increasing the supply of rental units available in Minneapolis.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Good information @Kevin Powell, I made the comment because I wasn't certain that the new house was located in Mpls.  Either way it would be something I would look into but it could be a cheaper way to get a rental going.  On a nice house the mother-in-law apartment would also add value to the next owner occupant even if they didn't want to rent it out.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Thanks @Kevin Powell and @John Woodrich, another friend suggested a mother-in-law over the garage as well. It's something I would consider for sure, but I'm not sure if my wife would go for sharing the property with tenants. Appreciate the thoughts!

  • Rental Property Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 266 posts · 312 votes
    8y

    If I might add a thought. I have 4 SFRs that I manage. They are in great shape but still need some repairs from time to time. I started taking short 6-8 week courses at a local tech school on home repair, electric and plumbing. Nothing fancy but I learned some things that have saved me a lot of money (courses can be a business expense).

    Things like replacing toilet rings or changing out an outlet that would cost you a service call plus over priced parts. Also shortens the repair time the renters would have to wait (keeps them happy)

    Consider keeping a file with the names of contractors and handyman that can handle the things you can't do. Ask friends or coworkers who they would recommend. Do the same with REAs or other professionals for quick and easy access when you need answers to questions.

    Good luck!

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Thanks @Guy Yoes. I'm moderately handy and enjoy doing work around the house - a course to beef up my knowledge sounds like an awesome idea!

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