Using range of expenses in your profit / ROE estimates?

Using range of expenses in your profit / ROE estimates?

J. MartinPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I know many members on BP use the 50% rule as a screening technique.. I was curious if anyone uses a range of estimates for expenses to estimate potential profit, rather than strictly 50% - either while they are prospecting, or after purchase..

For example, do you look at what your profit and ROE would be if your expenses sucked up 60% of your revenue? 40%? Decreased or increased rents? ("Stress testing") I think this is a more realistic way to assess the likely range of outcomes, rather than some "overly precise", but less informative calculations, where I see people estimating they will be earning $129.72/door this year, with a ROE of "approximately" 17.25834%..

I use a spreadsheet with 5 different columns and some have higher than expected expenses/vacancy, or reduce the rents by 10-15% to make sure I can handle less than ideal scenarios while still making a healthy return. For example, I may estimate an ROE of 8-12% (or whatever they might be) before principal paydown and appreciation, but after a plausible range of expenses. And I think my results will fall in that range a good majority of the time.. (approximately 82.7643% of the time.. just kidding!)

I used to only model my expected scenario and the downside risk. But I also do 1 or 2 to the upside now to estimate longer-term returns for some increased rents, which I also think is plausible. I learned years ago that if you only look at the negative, you may miss the boat on opportunities also.. If you don't price in your potential upside, you may lose out on lots of deals to others who are taking into account everything..

But this also gives you the ability to ask yourself, Am I comfortable with returns on the low side of that range if expenses are higher, or rents a bit lower, than I thought originally? Or if the market changes? Am I dependent upon increased rents to make healthy returns? Can I reasonably expect my returns to fall within that estimates the majority of the time? Thoughts? I think @Account Closed if he's got time for the forums..?

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Johnson H.Pro Member
Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
12y

@Bill Gulley - Ironic that you chimed in here as both J and I are bank examiners as well. =)

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    You can have as many models of analysis as feasible that may be appropriate for any operation. The 50% assumption is more of an instant consideration for a buyer or lender considering a new or additional unit.

    The size of your portfolio or units under management.

    Maintenance is a variable expense. The larger the operation, say 250 units, it becomes more stable, predictable and planning is easier. Having 5 properties it's a guess as to what actual expenses may be.

    I don't nor never have injected unrealized expenses into my return on investment or any projection for my own use. If I'm doing any proforma estimate I'll use 10% after PITI.

    The only reason for me to do such guesstimations is for financing matters.

    I understand that many investors like to play with their calculators, I'm guilty of that at times to put a smile on my face. It's more fun in notes, but holding RE usually doesn't get that impressive really.

    My though is that if one has reserves as well as the ability to borrow, there isn't really any maintenance issue that can't be taken care of. My interest expense becomes my cost of money plus actual variable expenses incurred.

    I've noticed too that rural areas have an impact on expenses due to increased labor costs in my area. Might consider labor in your area.

    We have a tri-plex that has been more student housing than anything, mostly college students but have had adults. Cleaning has been the largest expense. After about 18 years now, paid for, there have been a couple of issues that were covered by insurance (roof replaced). HVAC filters less than 4o bucks a year. While everyone is thinking there is deferred maintenance issues, not really, it's in very good condition. Haven't figured carpet, much of it was replaced due to damages and fell on the tenant, hallway at $200 in 7 years is change. The only reason it was kept is because it's a cash machine that is easily leased. Now, in a few more years we'll put a paint job on it, probably 6 to 8K, about $33 a month over the holding period.

    Saying that all the analysis goes out the window at the end of the year when no real maintenance or improvement issues arise, it can be the cost of cleaning supplies, nothing in the big picture. You can go for years without any significant issue if the property is very good condition. I don't consider the cost of a gutter nail to repair a lose gutter. On the other hand, if the unit isn't occupied and a water leak soaks the inside on the second floor bringing you lower level ceiling down, you'll have expenses.

    Why would I attempt to compute the cost of a ceiling into my ROI/E for the next 12 months? Not saying don't be prepared for such expenses, but why attempt financial analysis on one tri-plex with unknown occurrences? I suppose because it's fun to play with the calculator, because your estimates will most likely never be your actual reality. :)

  • Real Estate Investor · Lincoln, NE · Member since 2013 · 584 posts · 353 votes
    12y

    @J. Martin I like to see what the breakeven vacancy rate is.

    We just bought a 14 plex. For my analysis I used conservative but realistic estimates of some of the expenses that I didn't have hard numbers on. The overall analysis showed the property would be a good money maker. One thing I had the spreadsheet calculate was my breakeven vacancy rate. For example, it showed that the property would cash flow a little less than $3000/mo. when full, and would breakeven at about 65% occupancy.

    This was a sanity/risk check for me. The question was, "Do I think I can keep this property above 65% occupancy?" to me, that was a no brainer and helped quantify my potential risk.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Wade, now I agree that you can and should look to comparable vacancies to examine the market, it has a greater impact on projections and in some markets be fairly accurate. :)

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    @J. Martin , the 50% rule is just an estimate. I believe it runs true more for the lower priced rental units than higher ones. For example, you have a 800sf apartment and during turnover, it costs $1200 to paint it. If the unit only rents for $500, it will be a much larger drag on net income than if the unit rented for $1,000. The 50% rule is nice to have just like the 1% or 2% rule, but it is just an estimate and you need to do your own due diligence in your market for expenses.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley - Ironic that you chimed in here as both J and I are bank examiners as well. =)

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Johnson H.:
    @Bill Gulley - Ironic that you chimed in here as both J and I are bank examiners as well. =)

    Well, great, fantastic and it's about time the reserves show up, I need a break!!! :)

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    Originally posted by @Johnson H.:
    @Bill Gulley - Ironic that you chimed in here as both J and I are bank examiners as well. =)

    Well, great, fantastic and it's about time the reserves show up, I need a break!!! :)

    Bill,

    It's about time for you to retire, and let the young kids take over. Unfortunately, these kids don't have as much time on their hands as you do so we still need your service here on BP. I guess you can keep your job.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    Originally posted by @Johnson H.:
    @Bill Gulley - Ironic that you chimed in here as both J and I are bank examiners as well. =)

    Well, great, fantastic and it's about time the reserves show up, I need a break!!! :)

    Bill,

    It's about time for you to retire, and let the young kids take over. Unfortunately, these kids don't have as much time on their hands as you do so we still need your service here on BP. I guess you can keep your job.

    Minh,

    If I only had your timing and foresight, I would have enough time for the forums like Bill!

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    J,

    What do you want me to say? I believe it's a sliding scale. In low-end market where people rent for $400-$500/month, I believe the actual expenses would likely be 60%-65% while in the higher end market where rent is $8k-$10k/month, the expenses would be as low as 35%.

    The maintenance is about the same, or not that much different, for a 1,000 sq.ft. house regardless if it rents for $500/month or $5k/month. The same can be said about fire insurance. If landlord pays for utilities, the expense can be the same here in terms of dollars, not percentage, compared to other states. The property tax rate is relatively low in CA compared to some other states. Property managers here don't charge 8%-10%; it's closer to 5%-7%. In general, I have yet to see a property manager here take 1/2 or the whole first month rent. The vacancy tends to be lower here too.

    I have seen underwriters used about 40% for operating expenses for apartment buildings in our area. They would even underwrite apartments with negative cashflow provided that you're willing to put 35% down and can show the upside potential for the building. Pro-forma anyone? Commercial loan is a totally different animal. The more I study it, the more I like it.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    I probably didn't ask the question as well as I could have..

    I'm not asking what exact percent of revenues you think expenses will be in our area, or about the 50% rule. (although I agree with you all). And not about reserves. My question is whether or not you calculate if you'd still be making a good ROE with higher expenses or lower rents than you project over the longer term?

    Like @Wade Sikkink said, he calculated his break-even vacancy. @Johnson H. , especially investing in lower-rent areas, do you know how your ROI will play out long-term if your expenses are an extra $2/ft/yr? Or 10% higher? (whatever you use) @Account Closed , do you know how much your rents would have to increase to offset increased rates in your 5/1 ARMS without eating away at profit (or how profit would drop if they don't go up as expected)? Prime has regularly been over 7% every 5-10 years.. even higher the further you go back.. Not trying to pick on anyone specifically. Just getting at this idea of knowing how fluctuations relative to your expectations might impact your longer-term returns.. Whether or not you calculate the impact on your ROE of those less likely, but plausible scenarios..

    Again, nothing crazy. But if nominally higher expenses/ft wipe out all profit, or a raise in prime by 250bp wipes out most/all profit, those results may be something that are totally plausible and I might be concerned. If I see that those increases just put a dent in the already very healthy profit, plus considering the upside.. Maybe I don't care and totally willing to accept that. But do you look at it?

    @Bill Gulley

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    @Bill Gulley , the reserves are here! We're just all getting picked off to go work for more pay at the Banks! lol I'm not going to the "dark side" yet though.. It's easier to poke holes in someone else's work than do it yourself! I feel for them sometimes, until I remember what they're getting paid.. lol All jokes aside though, most are pretty good folk. Just trying to adhere to and manage the expectations to the extent possible.. we try to work with them to get towards the same goal: a more safe, more sound financial system..

    Absolutely! The goal is safe and sound!

    Hope you guys will find time to jump into the lending and bank issues, at least PM with the low-down, LOL.

    I bet you guys have no idea of how your examiner days will open doors in the future, you'll be surprised to learn, even if you stay to retirement or go into other areas of finance/RE.

    As to debt service, I just raised the rent to cover it, as rates go up so does most everything else, so my simple approach was to keep my margin.

    Good luck :).

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    OK, I bite. And I'm sure I'll be beaten up over it ;-). I'm a technical moron: I have no idea how to do spreadsheets and don't worry that much about CAP rates and all the little details - just look at the big picture.

    When I started buying some of my properties it was really for land value. I had a triple lot that took me 2 years to go through quiet title and by the time I was finished with that, fall of '07, it had lost most of it's value. But it was short 3' of today's zoning to split it back into a triple lot and the duplex next door had an extra 23' above zoning. So, when that came on the market I bought it for 17K.

    After I bought my carpenter looked at it and said that it wouldn't take much to make it rentals, so I gave him the go ahead. I am in it total for about 25K, renting each side for $ 400 and figured that that's a pretty darn good return. Especially, since I was in California at the time and other investors were excited when they were buying a property for 120K, that they could rent for $ 1200.00

    So, then the property on the other side of the lot came on the market and I bought it for 10K. My carpenter said:'not bad" and we renovated. I was in it for 20K total and then rented for $ 600. I was OK with that.

    I thought that was fun and I kept going - a duplex on the backside of the lot came on the market and I picked that up for 10K. Was still thinking that I now had 6 attached lots and once the Beltline was coming around I'd have a nice assemblage. That one was much rougher. I'm in it at 30K. Right now I'm getting $ 350 each side.

    Anyway, I felt I was getting good deals and I kept going. I never figured 50%. I paid cash and felt that the income would more than cover any expenses.

    Now that I'm managing myself, my expenses are about 30%

    I know, I'm doing it the way that no serious investor would ever do anything. But I think the fact that I grew up in Germany, where everything is set and precise, sort of pushed me into the other directions, once I left the corporate world.

    Real estate taught me to roll with the punches. I learned that no matter how well you think you've got everything set up, things will not go according to plan. And if you're too set in your ways, you will hate the biz. So, I look at the difficulties as lessons that propel me forward. I look to do things that I enjoy and have fun with it. So, even when things go wrong, I always had enjoyment with it.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Michaela G. , I remember hearing your "accidental landlord" story, and I LOVE it! All's well that ends well! I also like your Germany comment! It drove me crazy over there! Missed a boat stop and went further down the river because I was standing in the wrong spot at the 12 second stop.. No we can't stop longer! Then "sir, you can't stand there. you must be 3 ft back when waiting for the next one" On time. In place. As instructed. Structure structure!! (Although many beautiful places, and fun people :) .. at Oktoberfest at least!). I'm stoked for how your buys worked out for you Michaela! Wish I could make money like that out here! But I just don't know GA and probably missed the boat on the timing..

    I think one of the biggest differences with some of us buying on the left coast is that we use a lot more leverage because of the higher price point (I'm sure you've seen the local MLS!). So I feel the need to have a more detailed view of how my returns pencil out if things don't go as expected. Not to mention that you could buy a dozen houses out there for a downpayment out here!.. You can only lose what you have in when you are a cash buyer by yourself. But I have my credit and my investor's money on the line.. It's not stressing me out or anything, but I feel the need to be diligent. I wish I were you! lol

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    J,

    The interest rate would have to increase 300bps to wipe out our profit on the 5/1 ARM. That means we're operating at break-even using the 40% rule for expenses, and assume we're not raising rent after we have stabilized the building in year 2 to 3.

    Push comes to shove, we would handle the property management ourself and put $0 into the reserve/maintenance, and that should allow us to absorb another 200bps. So we can sustain up to 500bps and still be ok. :)

    All of my single units are on 30-year fixed. My break even on these are between 65%-75%. My ROI is good, but my ROE is stink because most of the properties have almost doubled in value.

    Any other questions senor? Till next time..........

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by J. Martin:
    Michaela,
    I wish I were you! lol

    The grass is always greener on the other side. Be careful what you wish for buddy.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed , that's the kind of idea I was getting at.. Knowing what you can handle and how you can move from there.. Looks like you'll still have room to breathe, lower expenses, probably increase rents.. As long as you know how those changes could impact your bottom line..

    ..although a 300bp increase over 2-3 years would not be the craziest thing that could happen.. It's been at least 300bp up in every upward rate cycle, and prime was 825bp going into the crisis (+500bp from today).. Not that we're going to get there tomorrow or next. But with about 10 FOMC meetings a year, even 25bp every other meeting would put prime up 250bp over 2 years - when they start increasing.
    http://www.forecast-chart.com/interest-prime-interest.html

    ps. It's a good problem to have with your ROE/ROI on your singles! lol Maybe you should 1031 to some MF in higher-cashflowing areas like the East Bay!

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Johnson,

    Thanks for the compliment. I'm embarrassed every time people say I have good foresight. It was partially luck.

    I went all in on housing based on the odds that history repeats itself. I sincerely believe it was an opportunity once in a life time based on the data I had researched and compiled. Having a supportive wife is key because friends and families said I was crazy at that time. They believe the housing market would keep on tanking. That was when it became obvious to me. Buy when there's blood in the street. I look like a genius now to families and friends because it turned out to be the right bet.

    One of my younger brothers blindly followed me and made money. He's sitting somewhat pretty now. Other family members started to come around a couple years later, and fortunately I was able to help them make money too. These individuals are very happy now. They said I quit my job was the best thing for our families. :)

    Everything in life happens for a reason......I can talk to you and J Martin forever because I feel like we speak the same language when it comes to finance. I wish I was as knowledgeable as you and J when I was at you guys' age. You guys are way ahead of me.

    Cheers.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    @Account Closed , that's the kind of idea I was getting at.. Knowing what you can handle and how you can move from there.. Looks like you'll still have room to breathe, lower expenses, probably increase rents.. As long as you know how those changes could impact your bottom line..

    ..although a 300bp increase over 2-3 years would not be the craziest thing that could happen.. It's been at least 300bp up in every upward rate cycle, and prime was 825bp going into the crisis (+500bp from today).. Not that we're going to get there tomorrow or next. But with about 10 FOMC meetings a year, even 25bp every other meeting would put prime up 250bp over 2 years - when they start increasing.
    http://www.forecast-chart.com/interest-prime-interest.html

    ps. It's a good problem to have with your ROE/ROI on your singles! lol Maybe you should 1031 to some MF in higher-cashflowing areas like the East Bay!

    J,

    Initially, I thought 1031X was the way to go too. However, my research of well-off individuals in the Bay Area revealed otherwise. I accidentally stumbled across this information when I researched for owners of apartment buildings. You and Johnson confirmed that most of them are very low leverage. These individuals tend to own their properties forever and most properties are free and clear. This might be the path that I will take instead of 1031X. The math indicates that you can extract equity from these singles to buy apartments without incurring a bunch of transaction and selling costs. As long as every building can stand on its own, we should be ok. Over-leverage will wipe us out in a blink of an eye. It was meant to be that I met you and Johnson. I learned quite a bit from you two. Nothing beats free education. :)

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed , looks like you know your numbers with the variability in the rate.. (why am I not surprised?!) I've also seen the 35-40% expense ratio on MF in the Bay.. And since we're on the topic, not unusual to see an underwriter take into consideration what another 200bp or so would do to DSCR at existing rent levels (although I acknowledge the opportunity for increased rents in the economic environment in which rates are going up..)

    Thanks for the kind words for me and @Johnson H. . It's been an amazingly informative experience over the last 5 years of the financial crisis, and only wish I would have jumped in as soon as you Minh! (although was a bit more constrained on capital and capital access..). Of course, if I would have had a dime to my name a few years earlier, I might have got caught up in the crash and learned some REAL leverage lessons.. Lucky timing for me too..

    I mentioned the 1031 because you were talking about the (now) low yield on the singles, so thought you might want to swap into a MF with higher CF.. But you're right about the cash-out. Great way to tap the equity without disposing if you're good with your existing gross rents/profit per dollar tied up after cash-out.

    @Bill Gulley , you sound like a banker on CRE stress testing with rate increases: "Well if rates go up, they'll be making more in rents! So my DSCR will be flat!" Well...... that's probably true, but this is a stress test! lol You should have seen the look on this C-level's face today when we told him they were going to have to hold more liquid assets (and squeeze ROE further!) with the new guidance coming out.. It's a different world today.. Hopefully we can carry your torch in a "satisfactory," or even "strong" manner into the future!!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    LOL! I miss the exit meetings and watching grown men tear up.....

    I'm sure you'll do fine in keeping things "safe and sound".

    I'm aware of the increased reserves, not specifically but In general. Wonder how long it will last???

    Sound like a banker? Hope not!

    Agreed too, there's only two ways to get cash out of the walls, refi/borrow or sell. :)

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley How bored do you want to get?! (unless you're still interested in this stuff) Basel 3 came up with a specific level of solid liquidity needed for a prescribed runoff level. The proposed US interagency guidance proposes larger banks need to hold high quality, (super) liquid assets for a prescribed amount of runoff (overly prescribed/inflexible if you ask me) - rather than relying on off-balance sheet funding sources and a balance sheet full of less liquid investments/assets (they more or less want treasuries or cash to fulfill a low/moderate runoff, with haircuts/limits on Agency MBS)

    The caveat is that the runoff is what you would see in a low/medium liquidity stress scenario, so they can still project to lean on borrowings in high stress. I'm just worried these relatively mild stresses become the new "PCA capital standards" of the liquidity world. Everyone measures against that bar, which is often times too low for overall risk management.. The guidance is just proposed and in comment period now, so as they say, we'll burn that bridge when we get there! lol

    And I didn't mean any offense by "sound like a banker!" In this case, just that both you, @Account Closed , and the bankers reasonably point out how the economic environment surrounding FOMC rate increases are likely to contribute to rent increases.. But good to know you'll be able to manage it either way ;)

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    You're right, I followed you, but Too Much Information, especially a 1:45 AM!

    No, wasn't offended at all, LOL, after all these years I thought I'd kicked the habit of such thinking.

    Super liquid? Must have the yield in the basement, they'll like that! :)

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Oh, @Bill Gulley , and yes, I have seen the same grown man cry who told me 2 weeks earlier that he'd been "banking since before I was born." And this was not from any punitive recommendations. It was from the frustration stemming from an inability to answer basic high-level questions about one of the key areas he was responsible for managing.. I gave him some time to gather himself and he apologized later, and eventually came up with the "right" answers. But it's awkwardly uncomfortable (and maybe even painful) to watch it happen sometimes.. In this case, after hearing that comment coming in the door, it just made it a little harder to bite my tongue.. I try to take the high road and let things roll off. I don't like to shave any time off my life dwelling on negative things.. But damn, it was ironic!

    In all fairness, I wouldn't really want to be on the other side of the table and have someone scrutinize my work. But that's part of what the fat paycheck and the FDIC-insured deposits that produce all the ROE come with.. a highly regulated environment..

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    J,

    That's why I believe Johnson, you and I can talk forever when it comes to finance and real estate. These stuff are fascinating. Well, at least to us.

    When we recently took a 75% LTV loan an the 8-units in October, the underwriter took 50bp into consideration, but qualified us based on 1.15 DSCR so it was a wash because we thought they would use 1.25 DSCR for underwriting.

    No doubt the last 5 years of the financial crisis was an amazing experience. That's why it will only happen once in our lifetime. It was an 80-year cycle. The last one happened in 1929. :)

    Like you, I wished I were 5 years older back during the real estate market run up between late 1990's to mid 2000's so I could capitalize on it. In hindsight, I would likely have crashed and burned during the mortgage meltdown. I guess my point is that, the grass is always greener on the other side. Be happy with the hand you've been dealt. I have no doubt that you and Johnson will do extremely well during the next housing market downturn.

    I may have some good news to share in late Jan or mid Feb.....Stay tuned.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Okay guys, how many examiners do we have here? @Account Closed

    are you as well? I know J is and Johnson, I'm the has been, LOL.

    Yes, the 90s were sweat!

    J. you should have seen the guy that was running aviation fuel bills for his private plane through the bank. Having been in aviation (ATC in the Army) I knew what AV GAS was that had been missed in previous examinations.

    The Motel owner running his bar through the bank, the operations manager "borrowing" without a note, LOL

    Talk about watching people gag, choke and cry.

    Sorry, we got off topic.... :)

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