Need Advice - Pay rent for entire MF & Sublease?

Need Advice - Pay rent for entire MF & Sublease?

J. MartinPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I am an owner and landlord of several units, and have a unique proposal for the landlord of another building. I'm looking for feedback for anyone who has done this before, or from others that want to weigh in on the pros and cons of the situation. I'll start with a quick summary, then much more detail down below.

The low-down:
The owner of a multifamily (I have a connection with) is willing to take below-market rent from someone he can trust (me) to pay rent and treat a unit kindly (for personal residence - just signed the lease). I'm considering offering the owner of the building the same below-market rent on other vacant units that come up, paying the monthly below-market rent every month to him so he doesn't have to worry about it, then subleasing it out, and absorbing the vacancy and turnover expenses myself. Essentially, I would be taking all the monthly payment risk, vacancy, turnover, and deposit/damage responsibility from him, in exchange for a deal on rents to compensate me for that risk. Has anyone done this before?

Here were the owner's motivations when he rented me a unit for personal use, at significantly below market, as stated by him:

1) He wanted to be able to collect rent every month from someone he could trust (I came on a fantastic referral from a friend and former "pupil" in our college economics classes who is the landlord's cousin). And have strong financials.
2) He didn't want to have to worry about the unit being treated poorly, as they were remodeled - and there are some sketchy people who still live/move in to the neighborhood.
3) I think he also wanted to give a little "gift" to a friend of a family member. It's unclear how much, if any, this might play into it..

So my proposal seems to fit into what he is looking for.
1) He gets one monthly check for all his units (he seemed relieved to be able to do it on this unit, so maybe he's happy to do more.. maybe he just doesn't like the landlord risks).
2) He doesn't have to worry about vacancy or evictions, because I'm responsible for it (I would also propose giving him a big deposit for good faith, and my personal credit and cash flow, which is substantial..).
3) The rents would also be at a much higher level - which will help so he's not bound by low rents under rent control in Oakland. That's good for value when he's refinancing, which I know is also on his mind.

Risks & Rewards
I've thought of a few of the pro's and con's. But I would like to hear from others about their perspective, or other considerations I haven't thought about yet. Many I have not put down here because it would just be too extensive, but I appreciate any input. The building is in a highly desirable area with rising rents and low vacancies. Should be able to get good tenants that want to stay.

Risks:
Tenant trashes place; I'm out of pocket
Tenant stops paying rent. I pay for eviction and vacant unit while tenant lives there (landlord risk)
Landlord-friendly city (Oakland)
It doesn't work out, and the relationship potentially gets soured
Benefits:
Estimated $17k/yr net for 3 units, assuming no "blow-up"
Net cash flow provides significant cushion for "blow-up."
Could still be profitable if "blow-up" happened annually, which appears very unlikely.
Desirable area near public transport & 1 block from Lake Merritt in Oakland


Now let's talk numbers..
Monthly

Owner rents units to me at: $1,000

I rent them out at market: $1,600

Gross Spread $600

Vacancy Allowance from owner $42

Total Monthly Gross $642

Actual Vacancy $133

Other turn costs $42

Net Profit per Unit/mo $467

# of units 3

Total Cash Flow $1,400.00 /mo

That pencils out to just under $17K net annually to me if there are just regular turnover costs, without any "blow-ups" like drawn-out evictions, significant damage, etc., which I would expect to be rare, given the tenant I believe I can pull due to the desirability of the area. Maybe even an extra $100 or $200/mo rent/unit. So this seems to give lots of cushion. I would ask for a small vacancy allowance from the owner (included), although my vacancy costs would probably be slightly higher than his would have been at lower rents.. I may also ask for a "turnover" allowance, but that is not included yet.

So let's say I have an issue beyond normal, tenant does $2K in damage, $1K in legal fees, and I end up paying them $5K to leave the unit by end of month. That's an $8k haircut, netting me just over $8k for the year. Not a homerun exactly. But I don't expect those kind of blow-ups on an annual basis by any means (I have more than double the units in a less-desirable, lower-income area nearby and haven't had any of these problems over a similar time frame.)

Thoughts?
Opinions?
What am I missing here?
Sound good?
Am I crazy?

1Reply
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Most Popular Reply

Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

You won't get any benefits of appreciation or depreciation.

The biggest question that I have is your responsibility during evictions. I doubt you could go to court since you're not the owner. Are you a lawyer? If not, who would pay to hire an eviction lawyer?

See this reply in the discussion

17 Replies

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  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    You won't get any benefits of appreciation or depreciation.

    The biggest question that I have is your responsibility during evictions. I doubt you could go to court since you're not the owner. Are you a lawyer? If not, who would pay to hire an eviction lawyer?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks @Rob K. . You're right I would not have any asset price exposure. But I also would only have about a $5K deposit tied up. It's just a "side deal" that would give me some extra income. Although it would not necessarily be perpetual.. Most of the risk is in my credit risk - could be more than the $5k. But for $17K in estimated cash flow.. I shoot for about a 15% ROI. So on a property, I would have to invest about $113K in this case w/ a loan for about $225K on a $340K purchase, to get the same $17K cash flow (approximately.) But instead of putting down $113K on a property, I'd put down a $5k deposit.

    If there were an eviction, I would absorb that cost by paying for a lawyer out of my gross spread (or paying thousands for the person to walk - I estimated $1k in legal fees and $5k to the tenant to leave plus $2k in damage in a bad year in the scenario in my original post. I think the $17K in annual projected CF allows me to absorb that cost, if/when it arises...

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    12y

    The Cash flow looks good so im not saying I wouldn't do it but I think the biggest benefit to being a Landlord is the equity you acquire by having your loans paid by the tenant.

  • Commercial Real Estate Broker · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2013 · 31 posts · 14 votes
    12y

    J.

    I have bee in the real estate industry way over 30 years. In my option based on your best case against your worst case (which could be worst then you think if any of your sub-tenants file bankruptcy and living free in the place until the court allows you to evict them or something happens to you and you miss a payment to the landlord and the landlord evicts your sub-tenant then the sub-tenant sue you. That cost could be more then you could make in 5 to 10 years. The reward and your possible time involved (which your time is worth money) is not worth the risk for $17K a year.

  • martinsvile, VA · Member since 2013 · 90 posts · 16 votes
    12y

    Really sounds like a property manger with a benefit twist. I will keep an eye out I would like to see how this works.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    12y

    @J. Martin well what happened? Did you decide to go for it or pass on it?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks for the input everyone, and for the cautionary advice.. He'll have several units coming up over the next year, so haven't had the opportunity yet, but am considering it..

    You are right a big benefit is paying off the loan, gaining equity, etc. But I also am not signing a note and not putting much of anything down. So it's more of a "low-capital" property management/guarantee program. I appreciate the words of caution though.. There would have to be some cap.. And that might screw the deal after all.. I'll have to consider the extreme circumstances, and how the two of us would treat that..

    This will play out over the next year, so hopefully I'll have a good update about what ended up happening...

    Sorry for the delay in responding!

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    12y

    Crap! How did I miss this thread or not hear about it at the meetup!?! This is a great opportunity.

    1 - Master Lease opportunity. Take over the whole building paying him a set fee every month, and you sublet the apartments out, leaving him responsible for repairs.

    2 - Owner Finance opportunity with 0% down! Ask him how long he wants to collect what size of a check, lock it in as a sale with the monthly debt service!

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks @Troy Fisher ,

    I didn't talk about it much at the meetup because it's a longer-term thing.. Owner is rehabbing units 1 by 1 as they come vacant. I spoke to one of my banker buddies about the master lease idea the other night.. I'm interested. But I like your idea of a full seller carryback, if it's possible..

    That would make it more worth it to me, so I get all the risk/reward.. instead of putting my neck out on the master lease for the monthly fee.. Not sure what the common terms are for repairs and disaster scenarios, but I guess that's all part of the negotiations..

    Thanks for jumping in Troy, and let me know if you have any tips on this project! Did you get into contract on your corner lot..?

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    12y

    The Seller Carry definitely sounds like the best solution for you.

    Here's the thing, if he just wants a monthly paycheck and he has penciled out what he wants for the next 10-30years off the property it becomes easy for you to design a great seller carry situation. He gets what he wants and you participate in the upside on what I assume is pretty good property. (It being across the lake from the Chalet!)

    I am far from a Seller Finance expert. I can't tag him because we haven't connected but you might try to talk to @Ben Leybovich or @Leon Yang about seller finance opportunities for this.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Nice thread! A couple of thoughts:

    1.Is there existing underlying financing? Master lease triggers it unless the owner arranges this in writing with holder.

    2.Sub2, Wrap, Lease/Option - same problem.

    3.If there is no underlying, owner-financing is the best option, and within that note and mortgage or deed of trust is the better option as this would give you legal title in lieu of only equitable title as with land-contract.

    Thoughts?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Troy Fisher ,

    I like your idea with finding out what kind of cash flows he's looking for, and just structure a purchase w/ seller carryback that meets those needs for him, with some security from me.. The only thing here is that he bought the building real beat up, and is going through unit-by-unit spending a lot of money. So not sure if he is turning it around for the flip, or for long-term cash flow. I asked him what his plans were for the next unit coming up, and he said he wanted a long-term commercial lease (mixed-use) to someone stable..

    I let him know I'd potentially be interested in paying him rent every month and taking care of the rest.. But not sure if he didn't fully understand what I was proposing, if he wasn't especially interested, or just wasn't actively thinking about what I was saying.. I didn't press him. Just sort of off-hand. I will have a serious conversation with him when it's getting closer.

    @Ben

    @Ben Leybovich undefined., There is existing underlying financing. I believe from a conventional lender.. I wouldn't think the master lease would be a big issue from them, as long as the underlying financials and credit support look good. But to be honest, I'm new to this area (I buy/fix/hold/manage 2-4 unit properties, but not familiar with the master lease and some of these "alternative arrangement" structures.. Interested in it though, if you have any other tips..

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    After a unit finally came available, I was able to lock up something similar to what I was hoping for. Just rented out my old unit to some international Brazilian students. I would also like to say that I was inspired by a conversation with @Al Williamson about various strategies, including short-term leases and different demographics and niches. That conversation influenced my decision to rent it out short-term until I can reposition/add some amenities and see where else I might take it (furnished rental? AirB&B?) Thanks Al!

    I'd also like to dedicate this deal to @Christina R and "The deal that won't die."

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/143509-the-deal-that-wont-die

    Christina, I first put up this posting in the beginning of February as an idea - just a twinkle in my eye - inked it last month, and signed my first renters yesterday.. Sometimes the patience is worth it!!

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    12y

    So you're renting two units from this guy now? Or are you master leasing the whole building?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Not whole building (yet). 

    2/3ish units. 5 years leases w/ 1yr renewal (ya, I wish 5 yr renewal..). 2% annual. 

    One of the "units" (#3) has a separate entrance, that I AirB&B. Almost 100% occupancy for month after I put up on lower side of market, but w/ no reviews..

    Will try to get each unit as they get rehabbed and come on market.

    Owner will NOT sell most likely. But maybe master lease. He has 6 kids and wants to leave 1 to each child, but he's too busy to run everything, along with his other business, so helping him out.. ;)

  • Real Estate Broker · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2012 · 220 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Glad I found this thread, even though it's old.  I have a situation that is very similar, except its for a mixed use commercial building.  Did you make more progress?

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