Cash Discount then Cash Out Refi??

Cash Discount then Cash Out Refi??

Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes

Is this plausible or am I out in left field?

If I am able to buy a 75K house for 50K because I am paying with cash, can I then execute a Cash Out Refi for 80% APV bringing 60K back in my pocket? The house is fine and comps are at 75K but I was able to get a nice cash discount. Does it matter if its a rental or owner occupied?

Thanks

0Reply
29 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Jonathan Napper:

Is this plausible or am I out in left field?

If I am able to buy a 75K house for 50K because I am paying with cash, can I then execute a Cash Out Refi for 80% APV bringing 60K back in my pocket? The house is fine and comps are at 75K but I was able to get a nice cash discount. Does it matter if its a rental or owner occupied?

Thanks

No! Not unless you found an idiot to loan you the money...LOL

Joe mentioned seasoning. A purchase transaction sets the market value, first of all, if the deal meets the definition of market value, otherwise you bought a distressed property or had a distressed seller.

Loans are made based on market value, the rule is the lower of the purchase price or appraised value within 12 months from a transaction, some lenders will go with 6 months, this time frame is the seasoning period where the market conditions may adjust, they will look to the market activity and price changes. :) 

See this reply in the discussion

20 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y

    IF, you can get the property with those numbers, then YES...after the property was seasoned, you could do that.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Napper:

    Is this plausible or am I out in left field?

    If I am able to buy a 75K house for 50K because I am paying with cash, can I then execute a Cash Out Refi for 80% APV bringing 60K back in my pocket? The house is fine and comps are at 75K but I was able to get a nice cash discount. Does it matter if its a rental or owner occupied?

    Thanks

    No! Not unless you found an idiot to loan you the money...LOL

    Joe mentioned seasoning. A purchase transaction sets the market value, first of all, if the deal meets the definition of market value, otherwise you bought a distressed property or had a distressed seller.

    Loans are made based on market value, the rule is the lower of the purchase price or appraised value within 12 months from a transaction, some lenders will go with 6 months, this time frame is the seasoning period where the market conditions may adjust, they will look to the market activity and price changes. :) 

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    MAUAHAH  Evil laughs aside, yea but 6 months is not that long. I don't understand, I found a good property who has owners that NEED to sell it, my cash gets them out and new start. Why cant I borrow against what other exact comps have sold for? That feels like the banks are saying " Even though all these other exact same houses are worth/selling for  more, because your good at negotiating, were only going to give you what you bought it for"

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    Also, you won't get a $75k property for 50k just because you're offering a cash purchase, verses using a financed purchase.  With some sellers, no discount for cash, for most, 5% tops.  The seller really doesn't care, is all cash to them either way.

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    Also, you won't get a $75k property for 50k just because you're offering a cash purchase, verses using a financed purchase.  With some sellers, no discount for cash, for most, 5% tops.  The seller really doesn't care, is all cash to them either way.

     I disagree almost 100%, have your never met people who just want out from under a property? Or an investor who needs cash for a better deal asap and will for go market price? (Maybe they got it SUPER cheap) I do agree with you in only in the context if the sellers are content and don't need to sell.

  • Appleton, WI · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    11y
    This is completely possible, but largely depends on the appraisal. If you are doing a cash out refi the bank is going to order an appraisal. The appraiser is required by USPAP to analyze the sale history of the subject property within the past three years of the effective date of the appraisal. They will be the one to determine whether the sale was distressed (i.e motivated buyer, seller, etc.). As long as you talk to the appraiser and explain the situation, they should take your input into consideration. Although appraisers do not like you telling them what comps to use, offer to provide them with the comps you used to do the deal initially and explain why you believe the sale was significantly below market. The bank will rely on the appraised value for LTV. I'm commercial appraiser and I see this happen all the time.
  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Or what if I buy a flip for 20K, put 30K in it and its nearby comps are at $80K, I have walked away with $14K extra and a rented property to pay the refi off with. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Jonathan Napper Yes, you want to find a desperate seller.  But, it doesn't matter to them if the $50k comes out of your bank account, or if you borrow the money, it's still $50 k cash to them either way.

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

    @Jonathan Napper Yes, you want to find a desperate seller.  But, it doesn't matter to them if the $50k comes out of your bank account, or if you borrow the money, it's still $50 k cash to them either way.

    Gotcha. Agreed.

  • Investor · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2013 · 84 posts · 26 votes
    11y
    Wayne Brooks - your strategy is sound to me, and I'm implementing the same thing myself. A few notes I've learned from my deals in my market: - a Fannie Mae cash out loan is possible After 6 month seasoning - they'll cash out 75% of new appraised value (purchase price is irrelevant). - you can only do this with up to 4 mortgages. - if you find a local bank who is lending their own money, the rules may change. I've got a lender who will cash out 85% with no seasoning. This is a great strategy to jumpstart a rental portfolio in the few few years of investing , as you can recycle your cash over and over. Best of luck!!
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    You can run all the what ifs you like, you can have any opinion you like, but in reality, there are rules and regulations you'll be dealing with, they may not be logical to you or fit with your thinking but that becomes irrelevant in the reality of real estate.

    I agree with Pierce as to his appraisal techniques, but your negotiation skills are not a value that reduces a lender's risk, if you could buy it at that price does that mean that no one else could buy it at that price if it went to a foreclosure auction? Lenders don't lend on intrinsic values.

    And, there are distressed sellers. Such transactions may not meet the requirements of a market value sale, but then you have issues of your borrower having "skin in the game" a real financial interest that was paid for, not some windfall equity they have no risk in.

    These aspects are not just some banker's opinion, they are anchored in economics and accounting rules as well as regulations banks must abide by. Prudent lending practices that go to the safety and the confidence of the banking system and the economy. So, all that doesn't go out the window because someone got a better deal, banks don't buy perceived equities or lend on them.

    The rule is, within the first year, a transaction is valued at the appraised value or the price, whichever is less, after one year, it is the appraised value. You'll find this in legal and accounting assessments, you might buy a bag of diamonds, the value is that paid if the sale meet requirements as an arm's length transaction meeting other requirements, not a distressed situation, and that value will be the book value to the buyer for 12 months, then the book value will be changed to its market value. Holding the asset will be worth what was actually paid, then depreciated.

    Hearing some guru say he "made" 50K on a property after he bout it at a lower price is pure horsefeathers, it's Enron accounting, claiming nonexistent perceived equities as a profit. People go to jail doing that in some situations. :)   

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Wait, so can this or cant this be done? Joe, Pierce and Thomas appear to support this strategy but Bill and Wayne don't.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Napper:

    Wait, so can this or cant this be done? Joe, Pierce and Thomas appear to support this strategy but Bill and Wayne don't.

     Jonathan.  We all agree with different parts of what you said, but we are talking about different parts.  The underlined truth here, as @Bill G says, seasoning is going to be the issue...as it pertains to the rules.  The rules state it is worth what you PAID for it until whatever the seasoning period is for the lender.  Mine is 6 months, but most are 12.  You wait 6/12 months...and you have your wish...based on the appraisal.

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    You can run all the what ifs you like, you can have any opinion you like, but in reality, there are rules and regulations you'll be dealing with, they may not be logical to you or fit with your thinking but that becomes irrelevant in the reality of real estate.

    I agree with Pierce as to his appraisal techniques, but your negotiation skills are not a value that reduces a lender's risk, if you could buy it at that price does that mean that no one else could buy it at that price if it went to a foreclosure auction? Lenders don't lend on intrinsic values.

    And, there are distressed sellers. Such transactions may not meet the requirements of a market value sale, but then you have issues of your borrower having "skin in the game" a real financial interest that was paid for, not some windfall equity they have no risk in.

    These aspects are not just some banker's opinion, they are anchored in economics and accounting rules as well as regulations banks must abide by. Prudent lending practices that go to the safety and the confidence of the banking system and the economy. So, all that doesn't go out the window because someone got a better deal, banks don't buy perceived equities or lend on them.

    The rule is, within the first year, a transaction is valued at the appraised value or the price, whichever is less, after one year, it is the appraised value. You'll find this in legal and accounting assessments, you might buy a bag of diamonds, the value is that paid if the sale meet requirements as an arm's length transaction meeting other requirements, not a distressed situation, and that value will be the book value to the buyer for 12 months, then the book value will be changed to its market value. Holding the asset will be worth what was actually paid, then depreciated.

    Hearing some guru say he "made" 50K on a property after he bout it at a lower price is pure horsefeathers, it's Enron accounting, claiming nonexistent perceived equities as a profit. People go to jail doing that in some situations. :)   

    What about a flip though? If I buy it one for 20K and put 30K in it, will my appraisal be 20K because that's what I bought it at? 

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    SO Bill, your saying I just cant ask the bank to reappraise it 2 days after I bought it super cheap, I have to wait the 6-12 months to get the appraisal, which would be in line with other sales data and comps, not my purchase price?

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Napper:

    Wait, so can this or cant this be done? Joe, Pierce and Thomas appear to support this strategy but Bill and Wayne don't.

     Jonathan.  We all agree with different parts of what you said, but we are talking about different parts.  The underlined truth here, as @Bill G says, seasoning is going to be the issue...as it pertains to the rules.  The rules state it is worth what you PAID for it until whatever the seasoning period is for the lender.  Mine is 6 months, but most are 12.  You wait 6/12 months...and you have your wish...based on the appraisal.

    DING! DING! DING! I get it now, it makes sense, thanks Professor Joe. :)

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    Next rule, cost of acquisition, your sale price + cost of improvements added, that usually means you'll be refinancing 70/75/80 % of that as a cash out. You don't get 100% of your added value, again, they might as well buy it if you want all your money out. :)

  • Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 708 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Napper:

    What about a flip though? If I buy it one for 20K and put 30K in it, will my appraisal be 20K because that's what I bought it at? 

     For a flip, if you put in significant improvements, the assessor WILL take that into account.  However, the lender can and will ask for proof of those improvements (see other discussions on this board where the fliipper had to submit actual receipts to the prospective buyer's lender to justify the value added).  That's separate from the seasoning requirement for cash-out refi though

  • Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    So on these types of deals, what cash flow requirement do you require?

  • Realtor · Lafayette, LA · Member since 2011 · 296 posts · 175 votes
    11y

    I think the main thing to take from this thread is establish a relationship with a local lender and try and get the shortest seasoning time possible. Relationships trump regulations when local banks are involved 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.