What is your MINIMUM required Capitalization (Cap) Rate?

What is your MINIMUM required Capitalization (Cap) Rate?

Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes

Although I'm not a big fan of using the Capitalization (Cap) Rate to analyze a property, it is a number used by many investors as a quick one-dimensional metric.  It is also one that is more commonly used in the commercial space.

Of course, investors have different subjective expectations of what a "good" or "minimum" cap rate is.

So I'm doing a quick poll via this post:

What is your MINIMUM required Capitalization (Cap) Rate?

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Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
11y

Thought I put two cents in this thread, guess not. 

I agree that Bob is going down the right path. as I mentioned recently in a similar thread comparing stocks to real estate, before your cap rate is viable you need to look at apples and apples, not apples and oranges. 

If you take Chapter One of The Principles of Real Estate, you'll see that while real estate in different classes may be similar but no two parcels are identical. That means the risks are not identical. To obtain a fair cap rate you need to look at opportunity costs of alternative investments, being the same or nearly the same, that's very hard to do in real estate. 

Your cap rate will never be the same as mine, my actual expenses won't be identical to yours, in fact, mine won't be the same every year. Our cost of money isn't the same, our opportunity costs are not the same, our NOI won't be the same, out tax position won't be the same and forced or market appreciation won't be same same.

A seller tries to sell historical income setting a price. That's like selling me a used car showing your costs to operate it with the maintenance you did or didn't do and then expect me to pay a price based on your past experience, the second hundred thousand miles won't be like the first hundred thousand miles. While this is apples and oranges to real estate, the theory is the same, in assuming my future experience will be like your historical performance. 

Lenders and appraisers have more market information than investors and much of that is shared. An appraisal is an opinion of value as of a certain date, it's not the market value until a price as been obtained in an open market transaction. Past transaction show trends, not absolutes. An appraiser will not say the cap rate for this property must be 10%, they are more likely to say that a 10% cap rate is comparable to what other investors obtain for similar properties. 

Your cap rate analysis is more of a psychological barrier that a true financial barrier for pro forma assumptions. Picking a number as your cap rate and then adjusting income and expenses to arrive at that number is useless. The market set the income and only actual expenses set operating costs, fine for looking in the rear view mirror once in awhile, but I have to see or understand what's ahead as what is applicable to me in the future to my desired profits. 

I do want to see fixed costs of a current owner, some of them will be applicable and other expenses may not be. Current rents only gives me a picture as to the current day and the near future as leases expire. Beyond that I have to look at the market and management expertise to profit. 

I consider estimated net operating income, I never consider the owner's cap rate or even try to guess at my future cap rate, it's irrelevant. When buying, consider net income, forced and market appreciation, tax implications, management requirements, debt service and known fixed costs. 

If a property isn't a real pain to manage, pays for itself and doesn't eat any hay, has cash flow for operations, doesn't really cost you anything, then it's a good deal! 

Cap rates are fine for liquid investments, inventory management, use of funds, allocations to equity, but not to real estate, at least until you get to very large numbers and can accurately identify use of cash and opportunity costs within the market. 

But, many like playing with their financial calculators.... LOL! :)

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  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Marco Santarelli:

    Although I'm not a big fan of using the Capitalization (Cap) Rate to analyze a property, it is a number used by many investors as a quick one-dimensional metric.  It is also one that is more commonly used in the commercial space.

    Of course, investors have different subjective expectations of what a "good" or "minimum" cap rate is.

    What is your MINIMUM required Capitalization (Cap) Rate?

     That would make no sense to have some arbitrary "number".  There is the current market cap rate for the type and location of the properties that you want to invest.  If enough of the market transfers above or below then the current market cap rate is no longer market.

    If you have some "set" number and it is above the current market cap rate then you are not in that market.  If your "set" number is below the current market cap rate then you end up overpaying.  

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    Hey @Account Closed -- I'm actually asking the BiggerPockets community a POLL question.  Others may be curious what cap rate expectations are like.  :-)

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    And I'm asking what the heck good is a cap rate "expectation" since cap rates are the result of sales of different types of properties in different markets at different times.  It's like asking what $ per square foot to you "expect" to buy at.  It means nothing unless compared to the current market.

    Your question also implies that above a minimum is better and that is not true.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    Hi Bob -- I understand what you're saying, but my question is coming from a different angle.  We speak with a lot of investors who are looking for investment property.  One thing many of them look at is one property's cap rate as a metric to compare it to another property's cap rate.  The cap rates on all the properties are already calculated. 

    Additionally, some investors have a criteria of what they're looking for and often that includes a minimum cap rate in order to meet their requirements. 

    Hope that helps to clear up my poll question.  :-)

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Marco Santarelli:

       One thing many of them look at is one property's cap rate as a metric to compare it to another property's cap rate.  The cap rates on all the properties are already calculated. 

     How can you calculate a cap rate unless you have a market value.  How do you know the market value unless you know the market cap rate?

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    Simple.  These are not commercial properties.  With our properties the variables are known and so the formula is:

    Cap Rate = Net Operating Income / Sales Price

    See also:  Estimating Value With The Capitalization Rate

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Marco Santarelli:

    Simple.  These are not commercial properties.  With our properties the variables are known and so the formula is:

    Cap Rate = Net Operating Income / Sales Price

    See also:  Estimating Value With The Capitalization Rate

     OK,  I thought even you agreed that cap rates were not appropriate for non commercial properties.  BUT,no matter the type/class of the property WHERE do you get the sales price for a property that has not sold?  See how that makes your equation useless?

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    Not at all.  We post the purchase price for all our properties on our website.  The purchase price will be the sales price.  Since it will be the "sold price" after the close of escrow, we can use that number to run the cap rate calculation now as part of the cash-flow analysis. 

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Marco Santarelli:

    Not at all.  We post the purchase price for all our properties on our website.  The purchase price will be the sales price.  Since it will be the "sold price" after the close of escrow, we can use that number to run the cap rate calculation now as part of the cash-flow analysis. 

     But if YOUR sold price is above market price then your customers are paying TOO much for the properties and they are losing profitability.  

    Good for you but a rip-off for your customers.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    That would be true, but they are not priced above market value. Depending on the market, they can be up to 10% below appraisal or FMV. Plus, since 80% or more of our clients finance their purchases, we would run into issues with the appraisals if they were over-priced. (I've enjoyed your posts - thank you.)

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Marco

    I looked at your Blue Heron property. You have a cap rate of 9.6% Your potential gross income is only $13,300. At 9.6% you are coming up with a NOI of $10,656. That ONLY leaves $2544 for operating expenses and vacancy and collections. Can you itemize your operating expenses and give your number for v/c?

    And property taxes of only $864 seems about only half if not more that what the actual should be.  Are you using an owner occupied tax rate for an investment property?

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Marco Santarelli The problem is not just what @Account Closed always points out. The real problem is Cap rates calculated on Pro formas for a investor buying one or two properties is essentially meaningless. First of all pro formas all understate expenses. Secondly, even if the expenses were correctly accounted for, the variability from one SFR to another in actual performance is HUGE. Just for example: I have 8 properties. I just did YTD NOI calculations and the CAP rate varies from 6% to 12%. The average portfolio is 10-11%. But thats only this year so far. If I take out capex reserves, it drops to about 9%. My actual COC is much better due to leverage. The point is, expecting a CAP rate and getting it are two different animals.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y

    Hi @Account Closed -- I know exactly what you're saying.  You and Bob are "preaching to the choir".  :-)

    Let me share a fairly common example of what some investors will say to me over the phone: "I'm looking for a single-family property in a B grade neighborhood with an expected cap rate of 8%."

    As you can see from this example there are investors that consider the cap rate (whether current or future) as part of their criteria.

    The intent of this thread's question is being diluted within this discussion of the cap rate's shortcomings. This is why I said I don't like it as a metric. But this thread is meant to ask other investors what they expect to see on their property's first year cap rate.

  • Professional · Riverside, CA · Member since 2009 · 254 posts · 273 votes
    11y

    @Marco Santarelli

    I will actually answer your question!

    About 1% above the going rate on a 10/25 loan.  Currently about 6%.  I personally do use it as a screening criteria if looking for leased investments.  Anyone that markets a property is going try to increase the cap as much as possible.  No doubt the actual cap is much lower (perhaps some expenses left off).  Therefore, if a property markets for <6% (and many around So Cal do) and my intent is to find a leased investment, likely not even worth my time to look further.   

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Chang:
     

    @Marco Santarelli

    I will actually answer your question! 

    About 1% above the going rate on a 10/25 loan.  Currently about 6%.  I personally do use it as a screening criteria if looking for leased investments.  Anyone that markets a property is going try to increase the cap as much as possible.  No doubt the actual cap is much lower (perhaps some expenses left off).  Therefore, if a property markets for <6% (and many around So Cal do) and my intent is to find a leased investment, likely not even worth my time to look further.   

    Thanks for your answer Daniel.

    At first 6% would seem like a "low bar" for a cap rate but I guess when you're looking at commercial properties in California that is what you may expect to find.

    Using 1% above the current rate on a 10/25 loan is an interesting criteria to help filter through your prospective deals.

    Continued success!

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Chang:

    @Marco Santarelli

    I will actually answer your question!

       Anyone that markets a property is going try to increase the cap as much as possible.   

    How would they increase the cap rate over the market cap rate except by selling under market?

  • Professional · Riverside, CA · Member since 2009 · 254 posts · 273 votes
    11y

    @Marco Santarelli

    Yes 6% is low, and yet in CA many properties market <6%.  Ridiculous!  But it is just a MINIMUM in which to screen.  From there, I look into the financials.  But to me, if the cap is not higher than the interest rate, an investor would be negatively leveraging, not to mention they will not likely qualify for a loan in the 1st place.  Hence, I adjust my minimum screen to the interest rate.

    @Account Closed  

    I sense that you really do no like this "cap rate" idea.  =D

    This is what generally happens. They minimize expenses to market the property at a higher cap to achieve a higher price. They may market at a 7 cap based on NOI. But they will leave things off like cap-ex, vacancies, management fees (if the owner self manages). So the stated NOI is higher than what it actually would be. If the historical vacancy of a property is 10%, but is CURRENTLY 100% leased, then they will use a NOI based on the current situation. So instead of stating $45K as the NOI, they will state $50K. They will then put it on the market at the "market cap" say 7%, in reality inflating the purchase price by 10%. In this case to $714K. However, based on 45K NOI, the cap @ $714K is 6.3%. Hence they "inflated" the cap from 6.3 to 7.

    That's what I mean when I say the broker/seller "increases the cap rate". They do this by increasing the NOI (leaving off some expenses that should be calculated in).

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Chang:

    @Account Closed  

    I sense that you really do no like this "cap rate" idea.  =D

    I used cap rates to value over $40,000,000,0000 in real estate.  I object to the improper use of cap rates.  

     First cap rates are not appropriate for small residential properties because there is no reliable source for cap rate comps.

    Sophisticated investors are not buying cap rates, they are buying NOI. They will verify NOI first thing. Then they don't want to overpay for NOI so they look for cap rate comps (what the market has recently paid for the NOI from similar properties in comparable areas). There are third party companies that do these calculations and will sell that information.

    So 95% of the people here do the cap rate bass ackwards. The proper way is to verify the NOI and then to use the MARKET CAP RATE COMPS to come up with a market value. They are NOT going to be influenced by some marketing wished for cap rate. They will go to the owner and say here is what I can verify as your NOI and here are what cap rates similar properties are selling at so this is my offer.

  • Investor · Ridgewood, NJ · Member since 2012 · 113 posts · 10 votes
    11y

    Cap rate is important if you plan to get financing. I know for my 6 unit in Newark NJ the appraisal valuation was done based on the rental income and the miminum cap rate to back into the appraised value of the property.  So what appraiser's deem appropriate cap rates for the area will determine how much financing you can get.

  • Professional · Riverside, CA · Member since 2009 · 254 posts · 273 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

    Cap rate is simply NOI / Purchase price. As long as one understands that, there's not a certain methodology to how to apply it.

    I use cap rate as a screen, because most brokers will advertise their leased investments as a cap.  I don't buy an investment based on a cap rate.  It's just a tool to narrow the spectrum of properties to investigate further.  

    I think you are arguing academics at this point. Does it really matter if you start with NOI and then calculate the FMV using market cap (as you say is the right way to do it)? Or start with cap and verify that the NOI is true/actual for the purchase price? You can use cap rate however you want. I do not think there's a "proper" and "improper" way to use it.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Peter Fokas:

    Cap rate is important if you plan to get financing. I know for my 6 unit in Newark NJ the appraisal valuation was done based on the rental income and the miminum cap rate to back into the appraised value of the property.  So what appraiser's deem appropriate cap rates for the area will determine how much financing you can get.

     Appraisers don't DEEM appropriate cap rates.  They utilize cap rate comps just as if they were doing a comparable sales approach to value they would use sales comps.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Chang:

    @Account Closed

    Cap rate is simply NOI / Purchase price. As long as one understands that, there's not a certain methodology to how to apply it.

    I use cap rate as a screen, because most brokers will advertise their leased investments as a cap.  I don't buy an investment based on a cap rate.  It's just a tool to narrow the spectrum of properties to investigate further.  

    I think you are arguing academics at this point. Does it really matter if you start with NOI and then calculate the FMV using market cap (as you say is the right way to do it)? Or start with cap and verify that the NOI is true/actual for the purchase price? You can use cap rate however you want. I do not think there's a "proper" and "improper" way to use it.

     Yes there is a methodology.  Ask your local appraisal institute,  The problem with doing it backwards is that you overlook a good property because it has been poorly priced.  So you are screening OUT properties for no reason.  Also if you are using the subject's asking price as market price then your numbers are based on nothing market related.  Also if you don't know what the cap rate comps then how do you screen properties?  You're comparing them to asking Caps.  That's like buying at 10% off an asking price but the market price is 20% off.  

    Seriously, if you are JUST accepting asking price as market value why even bother doing any other calculation?

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Chang:

    @Account Closed

    Or start with cap and verify that the NOI is true/actual for the purchase price? You can use cap rate however you want. I do not think there's a "proper" and "improper" way to use it.

     When you do it backwards by starting with cap WHERE do you get this cap?

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    I like the CAP rate to be a little lower than market when selling ;-) Otherwise, I do not give it much consideration.

  • Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 37 votes
    11y

    Hello Marco,

    My minimum requirement is 7%. Thanks for polling this question as for I was just thinking of this in the morning. 

    David

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