If I can close this deal....

If I can close this deal....

Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes

I'm trying to push this deal through. The potential upside is enormous. The short term is challenging. What are your thoughts?

Asking price: $127,000

Triplex, fully rented, owner occupied

Main floor (and full basement): 2 bed, 2 bath. Owner occupied (estimating future rent at $600)

2nd Floor apt: 2 bed, 1 bath, separate entrance. Rented at $550

3rd Floor apt: 2 bed, 1 bath, separate entrance. Rented at $450

**Main floor can support an addition of a small studio apartment. Plumbing in place for a toilet. Need to add dedicated bathroom/shower & kitchen space. Estimated cost to add: $5000 Estimated added rent: $400

**The Main Floor apartment can be separated from the basement area, creating another unit. Basement area could be 1 bed, 1 bath apartment. A dedicated kitchen area would need to be added. This would adjust the rent of the Main Floor apartment to $500. Estimated basement rent: $400.

Now, the catch... the owner is selling the building but still wants to live there. She's lived there for 54 years. I'm trying to get creative with the financing on this one. In the short term, this will be a break-even deal. But once she passes on (morbid, I know...) this will be a smoking hot deal. I'll explain...

My Offer: $60k and allow the owner to live rent-free

This will allow me to buy the building much cheaper than I could otherwise afford. Once she moves on, I can gain an additional $600 in income per MONTH, allowing me to exit as Property Manager if I choose. On top of that, at any point I can add in an additional unit (or two!) for additional income.

Current building income: $1000 + owner + $25 garage rental fee

Expected fixed monthly expenses: $520

Insurance: $115

Property Taxes: $175

Water: $40

Sewer + trash: $130

Lawn Care: $60

------------

Total: $511.48

7% Vacancy: $71.75

10% Repairs: $102.50

10% CapEx: $102.50

Property Management: Currently $0

Mortgage: $234.73

----------

What are your thoughts? Am I crazy? Am I risking too much up front? I'm submitting this as an offer by the end of the week.

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Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y

Use a TIC Agreement

From Bill Gulley...

Let’s Play “TIC, TAC, TOE”!

December 1, 2015|Posted in: Bill's Blog9 Comments

Tenants In Common (TIC) is common in apartment ownership instead of C0-Opts or Condos, but is an available title ownership in any type of property regardless of size, type, zoning or use. These ownerships interests are also referred to as fractional ownership interests.

Why not form an LLC or partnership? These business entities are fine when the property is held strictly for business purposes, but in dealing with a homeowner who may live in a property they are not the best arrangement. Held in a business, the owner loses the ability to deduct interest on a home mortgage as well as the exemption of capital gains from their residence.

Another aspect is the availability of fractional financing under conventional loan guidelines, a TIC owner may sell and finance their interests as a conventional residence, like a condo loan, staying out of commercial lending requirements.

Unlike other joint tenancy forms of ownership, a TIC owner may leave their estate to chosen beneficiaries instead of other owners. They may sell or lease their interest without consent of other joint owners. They may also finance or refinance their interests held as just mentioned. That means that other strategies such a subject-to transactions, installment sales, leases and lease option to buy arrangements can be devised with TIC.

Holding legal and equitable title interests also means avoiding many of the pitfalls in other investor strategies. With a TIC agreement you're not on the outside as you are with a master lease or a sandwich lease. Your sale under an option is no longer contingent on having your seller sell, you can pass title as an owner and execute the sales contract through escrow with your TIC partner or have the power to sell.

Wholesalers are no longer subject to license requirements facilitating a sale when they are holding legal and equitable title. Agents are much less exposed to claims of net listings or agency relationships being in title.

Need to get in and make improvements to a property but don't have a contractor's license? The TIC may be the answer, the owner is doing the work and contracting as required. Not only can you perform work on your property you can obtain permits required and hire contractors and sub-contractors.

Want to be a landlord? With TIC and your TIC Agreement, you become an owner and you can manage your property without a real estate license. You have an agreed buy out with your co-owner under your TIC Agreement, you take a management fee and split profits up to current rents, then retain the forced appreciation you create. Many ways to split a deal!

Why would an owner enter into a TIC Agreement selling just part of their property? Answer, it works for distressed properties, distressed owners, when an owner needs some money or steady income and would rather wash their hands of dealing with the property, like tired landlords. Another reason is taxes, the seller can string out the sale of interests in the property, still retaining tax benefits. They can also defer income gained over time. A seller can go from an active income to a passive income.

How safe is a TIC arrangement? Well, it can be safer than owning 100%! Creditors, even through bankruptcy have a much harder time seeking judgments against a fractional interest than a whole interest. That's because the ownership rights of others cannot be impaired. You can be safer owning 10 properties with a 10% interest than one with 100% interest.

Can't a majority owner just vote to change the TIC Agreement? No! The agreement can be made requiring all owners to consent to any change.

Can you buy an interest with seller financing? Absolutely, that’s how I do them! If you are buying from an occupant owner and you’re an investor, Dodd-Frank will not apply, same as if buying as an investor from another investor. The only way Dodd-Frank would apply is if you intend to move in to the property, even then you may have an exempt transaction buying from an owner occupant. The collateral pledge is simply your percentage of ownership.

How complicated is a TIC Agreement? Truth is, it can be very simple much like a purchase contract or a lease-option to purchase contract or it can be complex, it depends on your investment strategy and what you want to agree to. There are standard TIC Agreements available.

Can you use a Trust or a business entity to hold a fractional interest? Absolutely! Just understand with a business entity you may lose the benefits of property owned individually, like building permits or representing yourself in court. That’s a business decision.

What about the value of a fractional interest, will the price be the percentage of ownership taken with respect to the market value? You can agree to that, but the Tax Courts as well as Federal Courts have ruled that a fractional interest is less because it requires a law suit to force sale and administer a fractional interest. That is to value found through tax matters and law suits, actually an advantage to that owner. But, since the TIC Agreement can include power of sale provisions and agreements, the matter of forcing sale can be avoided. As to your net worth, after you acquire a fractional interest at cost, a year later you can show the fair market value as adjusted under the rules, always see your accountant.

What does TIC, TAC, TOE stand for? TIC, is tenants in common, "TAC" is taking administrative control under the TIC Agreement, "TOE" is taking equity under the TIC Agreement by your entrepreneurship. And, no, this is not guru stuff!

@Bill Gulley

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14 Replies

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  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 531 posts · 266 votes
    10y

    The seller wants $127k... why on earth do you think she would sell for $60k? Whats in it for her? How are you risking anything up front?? 

    The best real estate deals solve both buyer and sellers problems.

  • Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    My thoughts are that she can live the rest of her days with $60k in her pocket and no rent to pay instead of me asking her to pay $600/mo to live in her home of 54 years. It's a win for both of us

  • Investor · Lake Forest Park, WA · Member since 2015 · 108 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    any idea how old the owner is and how much longer she will be around? Is this an unlisted property, and are you the only one she is talking to? I take it she doesn't want to be a landlord anymore, but likes where she lives. What would she use the money for?

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I can't believe you're thinking, rent-free what She lives 12 months, is that good for her?

    She wants to live there forever?

    Cash or terms

     What is it worth appraisal

    What is against it in mortgages PITI?

    What's cash flow money coming in?

    If it's a Wholesaling deal it's 70% of Arv - repairs - fee

     Look up subject to, wraparound mortgage, lease with option, etc. as acquisition strategies 

    TIC agreement tenants-in-common might be a good idea

    @Bill Gulley

  • Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brian Gibbons:

    I can't believe you're thinking, rent-free what She lives 12 months, is that good for her?

    She wants to live there forever?

    Cash or terms

     What is it worth appraisal

    What is against it in mortgages PITI?

    What's cash flow money coming in?

    If it's a Wholesaling deal it's 70% of Arv - repairs - fee

     Look up subject to, wraparound mortgage, lease with option, etc. as acquisition strategies 

    TIC agreement tenants-in-common might be a good idea

    @Bill Gulley

     I've looked into Wraps since you've posted. Can I use a wrap from the owner as her rent payment?

    I.E. I purchase her property for $60k, she gets a $30k wrap that gets applied to her rent of $600/mo so, in essence, she gets 50 months of free rent? Or I can ask her for $200/mo and use her wrap to cover the other $400...

    Thoughts?

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Use a TIC Agreement

    From Bill Gulley...

    Let’s Play “TIC, TAC, TOE”!

    December 1, 2015|Posted in: Bill's Blog9 Comments

    Tenants In Common (TIC) is common in apartment ownership instead of C0-Opts or Condos, but is an available title ownership in any type of property regardless of size, type, zoning or use. These ownerships interests are also referred to as fractional ownership interests.

    Why not form an LLC or partnership? These business entities are fine when the property is held strictly for business purposes, but in dealing with a homeowner who may live in a property they are not the best arrangement. Held in a business, the owner loses the ability to deduct interest on a home mortgage as well as the exemption of capital gains from their residence.

    Another aspect is the availability of fractional financing under conventional loan guidelines, a TIC owner may sell and finance their interests as a conventional residence, like a condo loan, staying out of commercial lending requirements.

    Unlike other joint tenancy forms of ownership, a TIC owner may leave their estate to chosen beneficiaries instead of other owners. They may sell or lease their interest without consent of other joint owners. They may also finance or refinance their interests held as just mentioned. That means that other strategies such a subject-to transactions, installment sales, leases and lease option to buy arrangements can be devised with TIC.

    Holding legal and equitable title interests also means avoiding many of the pitfalls in other investor strategies. With a TIC agreement you're not on the outside as you are with a master lease or a sandwich lease. Your sale under an option is no longer contingent on having your seller sell, you can pass title as an owner and execute the sales contract through escrow with your TIC partner or have the power to sell.

    Wholesalers are no longer subject to license requirements facilitating a sale when they are holding legal and equitable title. Agents are much less exposed to claims of net listings or agency relationships being in title.

    Need to get in and make improvements to a property but don't have a contractor's license? The TIC may be the answer, the owner is doing the work and contracting as required. Not only can you perform work on your property you can obtain permits required and hire contractors and sub-contractors.

    Want to be a landlord? With TIC and your TIC Agreement, you become an owner and you can manage your property without a real estate license. You have an agreed buy out with your co-owner under your TIC Agreement, you take a management fee and split profits up to current rents, then retain the forced appreciation you create. Many ways to split a deal!

    Why would an owner enter into a TIC Agreement selling just part of their property? Answer, it works for distressed properties, distressed owners, when an owner needs some money or steady income and would rather wash their hands of dealing with the property, like tired landlords. Another reason is taxes, the seller can string out the sale of interests in the property, still retaining tax benefits. They can also defer income gained over time. A seller can go from an active income to a passive income.

    How safe is a TIC arrangement? Well, it can be safer than owning 100%! Creditors, even through bankruptcy have a much harder time seeking judgments against a fractional interest than a whole interest. That's because the ownership rights of others cannot be impaired. You can be safer owning 10 properties with a 10% interest than one with 100% interest.

    Can't a majority owner just vote to change the TIC Agreement? No! The agreement can be made requiring all owners to consent to any change.

    Can you buy an interest with seller financing? Absolutely, that’s how I do them! If you are buying from an occupant owner and you’re an investor, Dodd-Frank will not apply, same as if buying as an investor from another investor. The only way Dodd-Frank would apply is if you intend to move in to the property, even then you may have an exempt transaction buying from an owner occupant. The collateral pledge is simply your percentage of ownership.

    How complicated is a TIC Agreement? Truth is, it can be very simple much like a purchase contract or a lease-option to purchase contract or it can be complex, it depends on your investment strategy and what you want to agree to. There are standard TIC Agreements available.

    Can you use a Trust or a business entity to hold a fractional interest? Absolutely! Just understand with a business entity you may lose the benefits of property owned individually, like building permits or representing yourself in court. That’s a business decision.

    What about the value of a fractional interest, will the price be the percentage of ownership taken with respect to the market value? You can agree to that, but the Tax Courts as well as Federal Courts have ruled that a fractional interest is less because it requires a law suit to force sale and administer a fractional interest. That is to value found through tax matters and law suits, actually an advantage to that owner. But, since the TIC Agreement can include power of sale provisions and agreements, the matter of forcing sale can be avoided. As to your net worth, after you acquire a fractional interest at cost, a year later you can show the fair market value as adjusted under the rules, always see your accountant.

    What does TIC, TAC, TOE stand for? TIC, is tenants in common, "TAC" is taking administrative control under the TIC Agreement, "TOE" is taking equity under the TIC Agreement by your entrepreneurship. And, no, this is not guru stuff!

    @Bill Gulley

  • Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    I'm not sure what motivates the seller in this instance, but I'm thinking this deal works for both parties. I'd like to offer her a $30k non-transferable rent credit, making her rent payment $200/mo instead of $600. Applied over time, this credit would run out in 6.25 years then she'd be paying the full $600/mo. On these terms, we make $200/mo until the credit runs dry. She currently pays ALL utilities for the building. Under my new terms, all utilities will be split by 1/3 (all units are relatively similar in size) so her monthly cash outlay (with the new rent structure) will benefit her too. It's a win win. The current tenants upstairs are paying under market rents, so adding the portion of utilities that they'd pay in other places would bring them up to fair market comps.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 314 posts · 153 votes
    10y

    You're trying very hard to justify the deal. If you have to search for a way to make the deal work out, it likely doesn't. You can offer her a 30k interest free loan(30k rent credit) in exchange for reducing the price of the building by 60k, but remember that makes your building less attractive to other people if you need out (there's an outstanding 30k loan of sorts they'd have to respect, assuming you did everything properly)

    The answer is above, work out a fractional ownership system, where she retains ownership of her unit and you retain ownership of the rest. TIC or otherwise. Throw a contract in there where you get her unit in the event she dies if you like and she'll agree to it. Reduce the price by whatever metric makes sense for the part of the building she's keeping ownership of.

    Do the work to separate the meters if you have to, and if that kills the profit on the deal, it wasn't a good deal to begin with.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Yes, this situation screams TIC! You buy 66%, she retains 33%, that keeps her in her home. Don't forget maintenance, you take care of it all and she only pays costs on her unit.

    Another point with her age, don't get into convoluted wrap-kickback arrangements with the elderly, it's not so much that they don't understand or agree, but you may have to prove they knew and agreed when they pass on, it's not just heirs, it can also be the state looking at medicare qualifications or other creditors. Do this as conventionally as possible! A TIC is the conventional method to split up this tri-plex.

    She grants by a warranty deed to herself and you, owners in a TIC must take title together, then each may pass interests along by sale or through their estate. A buy-sell agreement at any price puts you in line to take full title. It can also be gifted or revert to you upon her death.

    Insurance can be shared or you ca insure he whole building, put her down as an additional insured. 

    You get the depreciation, you can pay the taxes. You don't need an LLC, bu you can as mentioned above.

    She can also finance the sale, even better for her having income and defer her taxable gain. You only do a wrap if there is other financing involved. 

    Don't try to reinvent the wheel, this has been done thousands of times, legally, safely, compliant with tax and other regulatory aspects. It can pass through her estate slick as a whistle without complications. Good luck :)  

  • Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    So I'm basically buying a duplex (the renters upstairs)?

    I think I see where this is going. Pushing this idea a bit further:

    Her unit encompasses all of the utilities (sewer access, heating, hot water tank, electrical panel) so if they break down, she's responsible? I'd be responsible for the roof? Should I treat her unit like it's a separate building completely (i.e. I can't ever enter under any condition)? If so, this could help me greatly on lowering any potential repair costs but would cap my earnings as well.

    And how exactly would I be able to "buy" her unit afterwards? Add in an additional clause that I buy it for $xx,xxx upon her death?

    This is all great stuff guys! I'm really appreciative for all the great feedback. I'd never heard of any of these concepts before and I'm very eager to know much more!

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 314 posts · 153 votes
    10y

    >And how exactly would I be able to "buy" her unit afterwards? Add in an additional clause that I buy it for $xx,xxx upon her death?

    Yes, but this is where you involve your attorney to get the legal wording correct and make sure it easily passes probate etc.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    You are not buying a duplex. You are potentially buying a fractional TIC interest in the total property.

    It's easier to think of trading benefits over a timeline. What is it that this seller wants and needs and what do you want and are willing to exchange for it. Money,? Debt? Another asset? A promise? Management? Maintenance?

    If your plan were to work now, you'd do well to consider how it will work later, too.

    I think the upside is that you would become the ultimate insider. However, you don't want to be considered as having committed elder abuse by taking advantage of a senior. 

    Also, if this seller has offsprings, they could become your adversaries if you have not thought through the transition plan, meaning when the seller makes the BIG TRANSITION. I've made a career that includes buy outs and expensive work outs when TIC partners die.

    Were you to give the seller a purchase money note and mortgage/DOT for part of the equity you buy, you can write your own terms, including when payment begin, stop or pause. Also, said note(s) could have other terms that equalize or adjust benefits.

    This is why it's so important to study deal transactioning well in advance and practice applying the skills. It's a beautiful thing.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Dont be a 1 Trick Pony

    Be A Transaction Engineer.

    TICs, Private Lenders, JV Partners, Sub2, Notes, Lease w Option, Lease Purchase, Installment Land Contracts, Property Trusts, Wholesaling, Retailing, Probate Issues, Divorce Issues, etc.

  • Irwin, PA · Member since 2015 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    Just an update: the seller wants to be free from the burdens of ownership and rent her current unit, so the TIC is out. I REALLY want to get some seller financing on this deal, but not sure how to go about it. I want her to make the down payment, but how would I structure that?

    If she's renting her unit, the building brings in $1600/month as laid out above. (I'm not at home on my PC ATM. I'm in the hospital with my newborn! So pardon me on this one

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