4-Plex House Hack

4-Plex House Hack

Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes

Hello BP Community,

This is my first BP post, so please forgive me if I deviate from any community posting practices and standards. I have been renting in Jersey City for approx. three years, and have always had an interest in REI. I have been a member of BP for approx. 2 years, and an avid listener of the BP Podcast. However, I have found myself in a state of "analysis paralysis." It has occurred to me that the best means for me to get started is a House Hack for my first property to get my REI venture off the ground. Also, given my market, Multi-Families are in high supply, but finding a good deal as a beginner is hard to come by. I did come across the following deal:

Property: Victorian 4-Family (8 Bed, 4 Bath) (2Bed, 1 Bath per unit)

Ask: $850,000

Location: Weehawken, NJ

Rent: ~$2,000 per unit

Additional income: $1,000/year - coin laundry

Expenses:

- Mortgage/Taxes/PMI/Insurance: $5,397

*Note: I plan to do a 5% down FHA (possibly 203K depending on condition)

Utilities: $250

Vacancy: 7%

CapEx: 10%

Maintenance: 5%

Zillow Link

After using the BP calculator - It appears that I will be paying ~$850 per month (assuming I purchase full ask). I realize that is a negative CF, but it significantly beats my $2,5000/mo. rental. And when it is time to leave, the 4th rental will bring it to a positive CF. I will be seeing the property tonight. From the curb, I do see some value add opportunities. I am also told that the owner is trying to get out of the property before being foreclosed on - Is that something I should be excited or concerned about?

Any insight you guys/gals have would be most helpful. Also, since I am going on my first showing tonight, do you have any suggestions for questions I should be asking? 

Thanks for your help!

Best,

Derek 

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Attorney · Rutherford, NJ · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 168 votes
10y

Hey @Derek Famulari congrats--really exciting! I think those numbers look reasonable (assuming you are calculating cash flow with you living in one of the units). I believe I know the house and that's right on the border of Weehawken and Union City, so I think those rents are pretty good--may depend a little bit on the condition of the units (those rents would be high for Union City, but your proximity to Palisade Ave helps a lot, and also the Weehawken address). I've never had coin operated laundry in any property I own, but I do know, from friends who have, that it can a pain to service/keep operating (particularly if your tenants bring their friends over to use it)--so it may be that the revenue is not worth the cost of maintaining it. 

I'm not sure if it's an actual short sale but, if it is, you should anticipate a *long* time for closing. A property I bought recently not too far from the house you're considering was a short sale and took something in the vicinity of 8 months to finally close, which I think was on the faster side since allegedly the bank had "preapproved" the short sale before the house was listed. That's probably the only negative I see to the owner being in a foreclosure situation--and if it's not a short sale, you won't have to worry about that (on the flip side, he or she will probably be motivated to accept any offer that they get, so that bodes well, but you may be, or may already be, competing with other offers).

Things I would be curious to know about: are all of the utilities separate? If not, the cost of utilities you'd need to pay should be factored into your assumptions (it'd be surprising, for example, if heat and hot water were separate for all units). If there is not separate electricity, I'd definitely factor in the cost of splitting that for whatever units don't have it, which may be somewhat high. For basement units (I'm assuming that one of the units is in the basement) I'd want to carefully look to see what the water issues are down there: is there a french drain or other system? Do they frequently get water down in the basement (like any obvious signs of this/mold)? If there are water issues that's potentially a big expense to fix--possibly you'll need to rip up the entire basement apartment and start again for it to be properly drained. Is the basement weird (like super low ceiling, bedrooms without windows, or they didn't properly divide the utility area from the apartment, etc.)? That might impact how much you'd get for rent in that unit, and potentially raise some legality issues (if the bedrooms don't have windows where, say, a fireman can enter and exit). Same is true for the top unit (is in an attic? Is the ceiling height OK? Weird bathroom? Bedrooms have access to fire escapes?). 

For 3+ families it'd also be good to make sure they have a current green card (issued by the state of New Jersey sort of like a certificate of occupancy renewed every 5 years indicating that the building passes whatever requirements the state imposes). 3 story buildings with 3 units need to have a fire escape, exit signs, self-closing doors, etc.--if they have a green card this is usually a sign that they complied with all of the requirements the state imposes as of their last inspection date. In addition, though this is unlikely to be something you can figure out by walking through the building, make sure that Weehawken itself believes this is a 4 family--I've definitely seen occasions in Hudson County where a realtor or owner will advertise a building as whatever, but the city itself will see it differently (again often an issue with basement apartments). Not having a current green card is probably not a deal breaker (although you'd want to know why this didn't happen, and when the last one was issued), but having the city believe it is, say, a 3 or 2 family, certainly is (the effort you'll go through to convert this to a 4 family, if possible, will be a lot). Maybe one obvious one: does it actually look like a 4 family? (Normal kitchen and bathroom on every floor/unit with separate, keyed entrances to each unit)? It sounds like the home is vacant which suggests, possibly, that it was owner occupied--did they do anything that you'd have to undo to make it into a normal 4 family (and how extensive would those repairs be)? I've seen several 2 family homes used as 1 families that require basically building an entire unit on the second floor (kitchen etc) which is quite a big expense.

For pretty much any property in this area, you'd want to see if it's possible that they have an underground oil tank (abandoned or in use). If the building has gas heat then obviously they're not using oil for heating, but you can see if you see any odd, old looking pipes (not water, not gas, pretty narrow and often bent at less than 90 degree angles) going underground. You can also see if there are obvious signs that a tank was abandoned (filled with sand or foam) in the past--like a fill or vent pipe (wide pipes going vertically up) near the basement outside, or a weird circular depression about the size of a tin can top in the concrete usually in front of the house. Unless you have definitive evidence that an oil tank was removed in the past or was never underground, it's worth the money to get a company to do an oil tank sweep--an abandoned underground oil tank is usually a deal breaker if the seller is refusing to remove it, mostly due to the fact that the liability arising from it can be in the 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars depending on the extent, if any, of oil leaks/contamination.

A lot of these things, though, are issues you can address after going under contract in your inspection process, and your inspector will look at lots of other things as well (is the roof OK? any weird electricity or plumbing issues/leaks? etc.). I don't think you should (nor will you have time, likely, given the activity of the market) to investigate much of any of these things before submitting an offer--and obviously your offer will be contingent on having a satisfactory inspection and resolving any issues or giving concessions. You might burn some human capital (like, frustrate your broker/banker/lawyer or the other side) if you go under contract then find something you don't like and don't buy... but obvious I'd prefer to do that than to buying a house with expensive or difficult issues.

I know from experience that FHA loans for 3+ family homes can be a little challenging (they have to meet a "self sufficiency" test, where the rents for the units have to substantiate the carrying cost of the property). This may not sound hard given the numbers you are quoting, but I've seen appraisers use crazy numbers for rental income, and at least two people I know of have had deals fall through because of it. Sellers are also sometimes warrying of taking FHA financing, particularly in the current local market when they are lots of buyers. If you're competing with other offers, you may have to overpay, possibly somewhat significantly, for the luxury of doing FHA. Maybe even more so if the sellers need to move right now--FHA loans typically take longer to close because of the heightened requirements on the property, and are more uncertain to close (if it doesn't pass the FHA appraisal/inspection, you're just not going to be able to buy the property). If I was the seller and had to move *now* I'd probably take an all cash offer, if possible, even $50k below ask just so I could get out of it. 203k might be an option if there are things wrong, like the roof is leaking or whatever, but again there's a fair amount of complexity involved that might delay the process. Obviously--it's well worth trying!

Best of luck! We have a local meetup group too as well mostly of BP members in Hudson County that you're welcome to attend (we're having a happy hour type event next week). Feel free to PM me for the information!

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    10y

    Buying a fourplex using FHA financing is a great move. If you’re in your 20s and currently unattached to children, house hacking is a no-brainer. If you do nothing else in real estate, you will have succeeded by getting into a fourplex as a young man or woman with only 3.5% down. Assuming the rents cover your expenses, in 30 years when you’re in your early 50s and the mortgage is paid off, and you’ve done the smart thing by raising the rents over the years, you will be sitting on a multi-million-dollar asset that cash flows thousands of dollars per month at the cost of a measly $20k or so out-of-pocket when you were 20-something. I can’t think of any better way for young people with limited resources to prepare for their future so early on in life with so little cash out-of-pocket.

    "I am also told that the owner is trying to get out of the property before being foreclosed on - Is that something I should be excited or concerned about?"

    Both. It means that he may not be too firm on price if she/he needs to get out quickly, but it could also mean that she/he would be more willing to go with a cash buyer at a lower price than your FHA offer at a higher price.

    Clarita CPA Group516 Reviews
  • Investor · Marlette, MI · Member since 2014 · 32 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Welcome to the Forum Derek!  

    What are you renting now for $2500?  Something bigger than a 2-1?  

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Logan Allec - Thanks! I am currently renting a 1 bed, 1 bath, 850 sf condo, in a full amenities building - hence the high rent.

  • Attorney · Rutherford, NJ · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 168 votes
    10y

    Hey @Derek Famulari congrats--really exciting! I think those numbers look reasonable (assuming you are calculating cash flow with you living in one of the units). I believe I know the house and that's right on the border of Weehawken and Union City, so I think those rents are pretty good--may depend a little bit on the condition of the units (those rents would be high for Union City, but your proximity to Palisade Ave helps a lot, and also the Weehawken address). I've never had coin operated laundry in any property I own, but I do know, from friends who have, that it can a pain to service/keep operating (particularly if your tenants bring their friends over to use it)--so it may be that the revenue is not worth the cost of maintaining it. 

    I'm not sure if it's an actual short sale but, if it is, you should anticipate a *long* time for closing. A property I bought recently not too far from the house you're considering was a short sale and took something in the vicinity of 8 months to finally close, which I think was on the faster side since allegedly the bank had "preapproved" the short sale before the house was listed. That's probably the only negative I see to the owner being in a foreclosure situation--and if it's not a short sale, you won't have to worry about that (on the flip side, he or she will probably be motivated to accept any offer that they get, so that bodes well, but you may be, or may already be, competing with other offers).

    Things I would be curious to know about: are all of the utilities separate? If not, the cost of utilities you'd need to pay should be factored into your assumptions (it'd be surprising, for example, if heat and hot water were separate for all units). If there is not separate electricity, I'd definitely factor in the cost of splitting that for whatever units don't have it, which may be somewhat high. For basement units (I'm assuming that one of the units is in the basement) I'd want to carefully look to see what the water issues are down there: is there a french drain or other system? Do they frequently get water down in the basement (like any obvious signs of this/mold)? If there are water issues that's potentially a big expense to fix--possibly you'll need to rip up the entire basement apartment and start again for it to be properly drained. Is the basement weird (like super low ceiling, bedrooms without windows, or they didn't properly divide the utility area from the apartment, etc.)? That might impact how much you'd get for rent in that unit, and potentially raise some legality issues (if the bedrooms don't have windows where, say, a fireman can enter and exit). Same is true for the top unit (is in an attic? Is the ceiling height OK? Weird bathroom? Bedrooms have access to fire escapes?). 

    For 3+ families it'd also be good to make sure they have a current green card (issued by the state of New Jersey sort of like a certificate of occupancy renewed every 5 years indicating that the building passes whatever requirements the state imposes). 3 story buildings with 3 units need to have a fire escape, exit signs, self-closing doors, etc.--if they have a green card this is usually a sign that they complied with all of the requirements the state imposes as of their last inspection date. In addition, though this is unlikely to be something you can figure out by walking through the building, make sure that Weehawken itself believes this is a 4 family--I've definitely seen occasions in Hudson County where a realtor or owner will advertise a building as whatever, but the city itself will see it differently (again often an issue with basement apartments). Not having a current green card is probably not a deal breaker (although you'd want to know why this didn't happen, and when the last one was issued), but having the city believe it is, say, a 3 or 2 family, certainly is (the effort you'll go through to convert this to a 4 family, if possible, will be a lot). Maybe one obvious one: does it actually look like a 4 family? (Normal kitchen and bathroom on every floor/unit with separate, keyed entrances to each unit)? It sounds like the home is vacant which suggests, possibly, that it was owner occupied--did they do anything that you'd have to undo to make it into a normal 4 family (and how extensive would those repairs be)? I've seen several 2 family homes used as 1 families that require basically building an entire unit on the second floor (kitchen etc) which is quite a big expense.

    For pretty much any property in this area, you'd want to see if it's possible that they have an underground oil tank (abandoned or in use). If the building has gas heat then obviously they're not using oil for heating, but you can see if you see any odd, old looking pipes (not water, not gas, pretty narrow and often bent at less than 90 degree angles) going underground. You can also see if there are obvious signs that a tank was abandoned (filled with sand or foam) in the past--like a fill or vent pipe (wide pipes going vertically up) near the basement outside, or a weird circular depression about the size of a tin can top in the concrete usually in front of the house. Unless you have definitive evidence that an oil tank was removed in the past or was never underground, it's worth the money to get a company to do an oil tank sweep--an abandoned underground oil tank is usually a deal breaker if the seller is refusing to remove it, mostly due to the fact that the liability arising from it can be in the 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars depending on the extent, if any, of oil leaks/contamination.

    A lot of these things, though, are issues you can address after going under contract in your inspection process, and your inspector will look at lots of other things as well (is the roof OK? any weird electricity or plumbing issues/leaks? etc.). I don't think you should (nor will you have time, likely, given the activity of the market) to investigate much of any of these things before submitting an offer--and obviously your offer will be contingent on having a satisfactory inspection and resolving any issues or giving concessions. You might burn some human capital (like, frustrate your broker/banker/lawyer or the other side) if you go under contract then find something you don't like and don't buy... but obvious I'd prefer to do that than to buying a house with expensive or difficult issues.

    I know from experience that FHA loans for 3+ family homes can be a little challenging (they have to meet a "self sufficiency" test, where the rents for the units have to substantiate the carrying cost of the property). This may not sound hard given the numbers you are quoting, but I've seen appraisers use crazy numbers for rental income, and at least two people I know of have had deals fall through because of it. Sellers are also sometimes warrying of taking FHA financing, particularly in the current local market when they are lots of buyers. If you're competing with other offers, you may have to overpay, possibly somewhat significantly, for the luxury of doing FHA. Maybe even more so if the sellers need to move right now--FHA loans typically take longer to close because of the heightened requirements on the property, and are more uncertain to close (if it doesn't pass the FHA appraisal/inspection, you're just not going to be able to buy the property). If I was the seller and had to move *now* I'd probably take an all cash offer, if possible, even $50k below ask just so I could get out of it. 203k might be an option if there are things wrong, like the roof is leaking or whatever, but again there's a fair amount of complexity involved that might delay the process. Obviously--it's well worth trying!

    Best of luck! We have a local meetup group too as well mostly of BP members in Hudson County that you're welcome to attend (we're having a happy hour type event next week). Feel free to PM me for the information!

  • Weehawken, NJ · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    Run the numbers, FHA is hard to do with 3-4 family due to self sufficiency rule. Total rental income X .75 > PIT and pmi, it's the taxes plus pmi that usually kills it.

    2nd Weehawken 4 and above even owner occupied is rent controlled.  Max 4% increase/year.

    I can show u the a good property that may work better for you, also in Weehawken.  PM me if you want.

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @John Errico - thanks for the detailed input. Very valuable to get local insight. I did calculate the CF for three units as opposed to 4. I will viewing the property tonight - so I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those indicators you mentioned. Also, I am told it is not a short sale, and the owner has not been foreclosed on. I suspect that the owner is in default and anticipating a foreclosure proceeding happening soon. 

    @Nick M. - thanks for the info. I am told now that all of the units are vacant - will the rent control prevent me from initially listing the the rent in line with the market, or am I handcuffed to the rent controlled properties in the area as a floor or ceiling? 

    Does anyone think I am crazy if I considered offering seller financing? 

  • Weehawken, NJ · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    U have to see what the rents are registered at Township hall, then if they have been renovated you may apply for an increase.  The problem is of they are listed at 1500 a piece an appraiser may be handcuffed at putting them down as that.  They will know itbis rent controlled.  Plus remember that as a 4 unit even if u live there u cant evict under the owner occupy clause in NJ landlord/tenant law.  That is why if yoy look at 2-3 families in Weehawken they are appoaching 650-950 where a 4 unit on 50th street in Weehawken sold for 770.  On paper it's a better deal, but if rents increase 30% more in 3-5 years a 2-3 unit owner occupied will be a much better investment.  

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2012 · 204 posts · 109 votes
    10y

    @Derek Famulari - congrats on taking action on this! This could have the makings of a solid house-hacking candidate, which isn't the norm for the area.

    Kudos to @John Errico for the incredibly thorough response. Guys like him are the reason this community is so valuable. It's especially helpful in such a nuanced market like Hudson County where the numbers vary so greatly compared to other areas.

    Given the proposed timeline, this sounds like it's a short sale situation. As John mentioned, assume this will take a minimum of 6-9 months. Having said that, the filing information seems to indicate an unpaid balance of significantly less than the asking price ($493k on Zillow; $472k on the county sheriff sale site). If the bank will not require a haircut on their existing debt, I don't know the mechanics of the process all that well but it could ease the burden if the sale will allow the seller to pay off the loan in full.

    Regarding the potential basement units, I know that elevations vary in that neck of the woods. If the building is at a lower elevation, keep in mind that that will add additional risk of flooding if not properly mitigated. I'd also take a quick glance at a flood map to see if it's in a flood zone as that would require an additional expense.

    The property tax records list the property as having four dwelling units, which is a good sign. Not sure what resources Weehawken has available online, but you may want to reach out to the zoning department or building department to confirm that status and to see if there's any additional info you can dig up -- such as any permits that have been filed in the past.

    I live in Downtown JC, and I'm assuming you do as well if you're paying $2,500/mo. for a 1-BR... Happy to grab a drink and talk REI at some point.

    Best of luck!

  • Real Estate Broker · Monmouth County, NJ · Member since 2014 · 94 posts · 17 votes
    10y

    Need to add water/sewer bill

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Derek Famulari, I don't believe your anticipated expenses are conservative enough. Repairs might be closer to 10%, Vacancy closer to 12%, Utilities closer to $400/m... (You get the idea).

    ie. Negative cash flow even AFTER you move out! 

    Have you asked yourself: why is it haemorrhaging for the current owner?...

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2012 · 204 posts · 109 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:

    @Derek Famulari, I don't believe your anticipated expenses are conservative enough. Repairs might be closer to 10%, Vacancy closer to 12%, Utilities closer to $400/m... (You get the idea).

    ie. Negative cash flow even AFTER you move out! 

    Have you asked yourself: why is it haemorrhaging for the current owner?...

    With all due respect, those expectations aren't really applicable to this market. On average, he will not be spending $800/month on repairs, especially if he handles some of the capex upfront. Having said that, can't hurt to inquire about the story line surrounding the seller's situation.

    Market vacancy on apartments around there is probably about 3% -- it's a stone's throw from Manhattan and right near both buses and ferry service. Utilities and Water/Sewer will be dependent on the metering situation as John alluded to.

    Good points by @Nick M. as well. You'll want to vet that all before posting any monies. I don't know Weehawken rent control policies, but if you're buying vacant and plan to rehab the units, you may be able to apply for an increase on the registered rents (or perhaps withdraw entirely) if you can prove significant capital investment. Again, this is generally governed city by city, so read up on what you can as it pertains to Weehawken specifically.

    Lastly, if you're in the market for a local lender or agent, let me know -- happy to refer you to a few locals.

  • Weehawken, NJ · Member since 2015 · 17 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Great point mentioned by @Ryan Goldfarb , as someone who grew up and is now looking to invest in Weehawken the vacancy rates are certainly in the low single digits. There are not enough properties to meet the demand from all the professionals moving out of NYC into Weehawken/UC border.

    For reference I have attached the Weehawken Rent Control manual, this is current as of 06/15, I'm not sure if it has been updated. 

    Weehawken Rent Control PDF

    Best of luck on your house hack!

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Brent Coombs - Thanks for the perspective - I am certainly curious as to where this owner went wrong...

    @Ryan Goldfarb - thanks for the insider info, and the rent control info - Definitely something I need to educate myself on. It's good to know that the vacancy rates are so low - that was something I was curious about. Having only lived in the JC Waterfront, I am only familiar with supply and demand around here, and as I am sure you know, properties are flying off the MLS faster than they are going on.

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    10y

    How did the showing go?

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Judy Parker - The showing went really well. Beautiful property and great area. A lot of potential - but needs too much work for what they have it priced at and being sold "AS IS".  The basement and "attic" units would not yield the rent necessary to make it sustainable. Realistically - I wouldn't be able to move any tenants in for a minimum of 3-6 months after taking possession. Great start, and excited to find another! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    10y

    @Derek Famulari  No flexibility on price?

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    I am sure there was - but even at a significant discount - two of three units (not including the owner occupied unit) would not yield enough rent for it to CF after I left. Realistically - At this point - I don't have the resources for a complete gut job and 100% vacancy for such a long period of time. 

  • Realtor · Fresno, CA · Member since 2013 · 471 posts · 225 votes
    10y

    I was going to bring up the subject of management - I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but someday you might want to move out of this and into another one - you may want to keep managing it yourself - or you may be tired of toilets, tenants, and trash - either way - when you run the numbers , you will want to include management because it gives you the OPTION of walking away someday and still putting cash in your pocket. 

    The numbers I ran on this seems like a good deal on the surface - but as you said - with all the deferred maintenance that will have to go into it the payoff may not be there. Ever considered bringing in a friend/investor to help you live in it and clean it up?  Whenever a deal is about to go down the drain - I always try to ask - is there anyone else who could make this work - maybe you could get it under contract and wholesale it someone else. 

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Jay Orlauski - you make some great points. I did calculate prop. management because my plan was to live in it between 18-24 mos. and then get out. As far as a partner, I have not entertained it - however, I am exploring the possibility of private financing which will assist in substantial upgrades/repairs and account for initial vacancy. 

    Has anyone here have a FHA Loan and hard money to finance repairs and assist with vacancy?

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