Out of state turnkey investing in Chicago

Out of state turnkey investing in Chicago

Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes

I got a bunch of questions about a property I purchased in Chicago through Profit from Rentals (PFR), so I thought I'd put down some of the facts here.  I'll attempt to keep this as a running post, so folks who are curious can see the history of a turnkey deal.

The basics:

Purchase price $185,000, 25% down, 4.875% interest rate

Closing costs $6000

Pre-pays (insurance/tax in escrow, pre-pay on interest) $5000

2-flat in Chicago south side, one 4 bed, 1 bath and another 3 bed, 1 bath

The neighborhood seemed OK, neighborhoodscout calls it the S King Dr / E 71st St neighborhood.  The appraisal came back right at the purchase price.  This home was rehabbed in 2015, and I was purchasing from another investor who had worked with PFR.

All seemed well until the property inspector (I used Rick Sabatino at Premium Home Inspections) couldn't get into the units during the first scheduled inspection.  Something about the tenants not being available.  Then, once inspection was completed, several issues were noted, mainly around a furnace that seemed close to 20 years old, a damaged vanity, deteriorated paint, a bad sewage smell coming from the basement, and some brickwork that was breaking down.  Lesson # 1 - I probably should not have closed on this property without a better understanding for how much the repairs would cost.

Justin from PFR helped me work out a price reduction of $3700 to cover the cost of getting that work re-done, so that we could close on time (December)

After closing, I needed to get another inspector in the units for insurance purposes.  When I contacted Letts Property Management, they pointed out I needed to set up a new property management agreement with them.  Once that was done, they took care of the inspection, and got access to the Rentmanager portal that they use.

That's when I realized lesson # 2 - I should have asked for a profit and loss statement or actual collections versus expenses report or something on the property, since it had already been rented for close to a year.  Turns out one unit had been under abatement since August, and there had been an on-going sewage and rodent issue for months.

On top of that, both units came up for CHA inspections - the one unit that had been under abatement for four months had actually lost its housing voucher, while the other unit was due for annual inspection.  Sure enough, both failed in late January.  Since that time, I have come to a greater appreciation of how the CHA system works, and gotten much more familiar with their website (I highly recommend reading through the landlord section of the website, for anyone wondering about how the program is supposed to work).  Not sure that would have helped me, but at least all the words make sense now.

Story continues in next post.

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Ronan M.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 352 posts · 281 votes
9y

Hang on a minute....

20yr old furnace/damaged vanity/needs a paint job/deteriorating brickwork/collapsed catch basin/failing CHA inspections.....

And this was supposed to be a Turnkey ??......A Turnkey Nightmare ?

I hope you can get this property stabilized and turn things around.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    To be a bit understated... I was not happy.  Still, this is all part of owning real estate, and part of the learning process, right?

    I contacted Letts to work out how to get the various issues taken care of and paid for under the property warranty (PFR properties come with 6 month warranty for work).  I also contacted Justin to find out how the warranty works.  Turns out I did not read my paperwork carefully enough, and the warranty was actually between me and the seller of the property (not PFR).  Somehow, though, some funds were transferred to my account with Letts to pay for the work on the sewage backup.  I think that was Justin helping in the background.  The sewage work came to $3000 (the catch basin had collapsed and plumbers thought it should be removed, dug to standard 5 feet depth, and replaced).

    Also, the other CHA inspection issues required repainting both units, along with some fixes that had been observed during the due diligence property inspection.  I'm still working with Letts and Justin to figure out what should be covered by warranty on those items.  Lesson # 3 - if purchasing a turnkey property, I should have only accepted it with all inspection items addressed or with a good reason for not addressing.  The paintwork and other fixes have come to $2000 between the two units.

    During this time, one unit has not been receiving CHA allowance (nor has the tenant been paying portion).  All in all, an additional $6000 in work has been put into the property so far.  The property has cash flowed -$3000.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    After looking through the RentManager portal some more, it appears that both units are now under abatement.  Looks like CHA took back the rent payment for the unit that just went into abatement.  On a positive note, it does appear that this same unit passed its inspection today!

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y
    Insurance comes to $110 per month. Taxes come to $190 per month.
  • CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai

    Sounds like quite a bit of work to me.... 

    Your experience is just yet another proof that there is no such thing as turnkey....

    But thanks for sharing... Benefits a lot of potenial turnkey buyers...

  • Mark AinleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Roselle, IL (Chicago Suburb) · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai  I am sorry to hear about this list of issues you are having.  GC continues to hear the same issues from Chicago turnkey buyers and it stinks because you bought "turnkey" for a reason....to be hands free of the BS in your previous three posts.  There is no reason you should have had to learn as much as you did about CHA or invested back in that dollar amount. Your turnkey "team" should have been all over that for you. 

    Let me know if I can ever be a help or sounding board for any ideas you have with any of these issues. Or maybe you just need a second opinion on an issue. Sadly our PM company continues to take over properties from our turnkey competitors PMs solely around the issues they are having similar to yours. 

    Keep the updates coming as you will surely find others with your same frustrations or help make sure someone else does a deeper due diligence before close. 

  • Ronan M.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 352 posts · 281 votes
    9y

    Hang on a minute....

    20yr old furnace/damaged vanity/needs a paint job/deteriorating brickwork/collapsed catch basin/failing CHA inspections.....

    And this was supposed to be a Turnkey ??......A Turnkey Nightmare ?

    I hope you can get this property stabilized and turn things around.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y
    Diane G. Admittedly, this has not been a great experience so far, but I don't think it is proof there is NO turnkey, just that each buyer must perform and trust their own due diligence. I think this points more to an error in my own judgement. Mark Ainley yes, I do hope my experience gives others some insight into one experience and some lessons on what to dig into. Ronan M. I hope this gets stabilized, as well. Seems like things are moving in the correct direction, so I'm still hopeful the current team can make things right. My main error was proceeding with the purchase thinking it wouldn't be much trouble stabilizing things after purchase, when I should have stopped and had everything brought up to par before closing. I shouldn't have been so easily swayed when the inspection came back with major findings... And no, I don't want to buy a bridge from anyone.
  • Professional · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai I appreciate walking us (me) through your journey albeit "a box of chocolate" not.

    My interest is virtual MF but lessons learned and due diligence equally apply? It appears you are 

    all the wiser for future opportunities. Again thanks. @Mark Ainley what does "GC" stand for?

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 619 posts · 128 votes
    9y

    Thanks for sharing your experience. Your positive attitude will carry you through this ordeal. 

    I would not call your purchase a turnkey property. You bought a "lived in/tenant occupied" property from a tired landlord who probably experienced all the things you have with CHA, tenants, PM, etc. and just wanted out. That should have been your first clue to dig into the details before purchasing. 

    Always have an option period in your sales contract so you can get an inspection and have time to negotiate repairs/sales price etc. You can also ask for a copy of Form 1099, at a minimum, from the PM company that will show the total rents for the previous year(s) to confirm any proforma you were provided. Better yet would be the year-end statement from the PM company / seller showing all the income and expenses for the property. 

  • Mark AinleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Roselle, IL (Chicago Suburb) · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Fred Sams GC Realty & Development is our property company on the south side of Chicago that we manage for buyers that we sell turnkey properties to thru GC Realty Investments that we develop ourselves. 

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Fred Sams That's mostly why I've posted this experience.  Maybe it will all turn out fine, maybe this will turn out to be a loss (hope not).  In the end, though, I hope that I can provide a balanced view - I'll own my own lack of due diligence, while also pointing out the parts that could improve from property management.

    @Gautam Venkatesan Yes, you are correct in that I bought into the story too much... I heard that the original owner wanted out in order to move into multi-family investing.  Was probably more correct that he did not enjoy owning this property anymore.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    I'm starting to learn more about how the property management charges work, at least with Letts PM.  Yes, the PM fee is 8% of gross rent.  The fee gets assessed even when the property is under abatement, which makes sense to me, since it is still occupied and (if under abatement) probably has several issues that require PM attention.

    Lease up fees include a $500 move in fee, and from what I hear from others, Letts charges an additional fee for advertising.  I'll have to look through my contract to see what that fee comes to.

    Those fees were what I expected, but there have been additional fees that surprised.  There's also an annual web portal fee ($95).  Also, for each inspection that a property manager sits, there's an additional $100 or so fee.  If property fails, then there is the additional fee for sitting the second inspection.  Looking back through the history of the units I own, it doesn't appear that either has passed during the first inspection.  Also, if the tenants complain to CHA of a life and safety issue (loss of heat, sewer gas smells, rodents) then there is the additional fee for another inspection, pus the costs of addressing the issue, plus the cost to sit another inspection.

    In short, I changed my original estimates for maintenance from 5% to 10%.  In reality, I didn't actually expect the units to require maintenance right off the bat, but that appears to have been an incorrect assumption.

    In terms of other costs, the water/sewer bill (owner responsibilty is standard for Chicago multifamilies) came to $300 for the last two months.  There's also a small electrical bill, but i haven't been able to see what that would come to, yet, as the meter was just installed to account for the common areas.

    I'll sum up the costs versus the rent in another month or two, assuming both units pass inspection and are receiving rent.

    Hope this is helping to answer the various unasked questions that folks might have - I certainly wished someone had posted this information before I had purchased, more so that I could figure in these costs and ask more questions than because it would have changed my mind.

    If there are more experienced Chicago investors out there - maybe you could baseline if these are the usual charges to expect from property management in Chicago?

  • Specialist · Coloma, MI · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai My South Chicago based company works with mostly multifamily investors, but certain property management guidelines can be used across the board. A good property manager will be upfront with their fees. Fees will vary according to the area and how much time is needed for properly managing the specific property, but these should be known fees. If the PM is even somewhat experienced, they should be able to give you a list of every fee that might come up in the normal course of business. Thoroughly studying your contract is a must. We cover all normal day to day operations within our simple contract rate based on gross collected income or a flat fee. Any extra fees that are not part of everyday operations are clearly listed in the contract. Not every PM does that. Many companies charge a lower monthly base rate and then charge you for every single service that does not fall under bookkeeping and rent collection. Often, companies neglect to tell you about these charges until after you are under contract. On smaller properties like yours, I would look for someone who can charge a flat fee knowing that they will have to deal with the CHA. Any company that works with CHA knows that solving the issues in your posts could have been explained to you and accounted for in full detail before you even got into that deal. Ask for all information that will affect your costs and cash flow and if the person you are working with cannot give it to you find some one who can. 

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Ante Vujic Thanks for the information.  I did receive a list of various fees, up front, from Letts.  I was mostly wondering about how standard the utilties costs were.

    Also, with respect to property management fees, I appreciate your advice on asking about how CHA issues could be accounted for, so that it's clear how that can affect cashflow.  I did not expect multiple inspections for each unit, along with such large maintenance expenses after one year of occupancy.  On the maintenance side, seems that units will possibly need full re-painting during each year (not just during tenant turnover), based on how the last CHA inspection went for my units.

  • Mark AinleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Roselle, IL (Chicago Suburb) · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai Have you gotten a smart water meter installed on the property?  If not, I would look into it.  The unmetered water bills have gotten really outrageous.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Mark Ainley Thanks for the tip on the water meter.  I do see that the bill is on metered water, rather than estimated water usage.

    I'm not getting much response to my e-mails from Letts Property Management.  I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for now, and figure that they are busy making sure all the properties are in tip-top shape rather than replying to e-mails all day.

    I did get to chat with my property manager a few weeks ago, and he asserted that the current tenants have re-signed new leases.  I've requested copies of those leases, just so I can verify.  I think it would be nice if leases or other documentation could be uploaded and made visible to owners through the web portal.

    Another question I'm hoping to find the answer to: do owners who use property managers have access to the CHA portal for checking on inspection results and inspection schedules?

  • Specialist · Coloma, MI · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai Your property manager can forward you the inspection ID number and tenant info and you can go to chainspections.org to find details. 

  • Mark AinleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Roselle, IL (Chicago Suburb) · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai Our firm doesn't provide access to the portal and I imagine most others don't simply because the portal we use has all of our other client's info and ours on there too.  I don't think there is an issue of privacy but we would have to give our login and password to every PM customer.  The CHA portal is sensitive as well to login attempts where if you enter the wrong password a few times we get locked out for a couple of hours.  

    You need to lay out your expectations of communication to your PM and let them tell you if you can meet them or not....they might not want or be able to provide the level of detail you expect or as often as you want it but you should be able to agree on what is acceptable to each of you where you can get the info you want/need so you dont feel you are always chasing.  Often PMs do explain the CHA process in basic terms and leave out some of the drastic timelines and the true percentage a unit passes on the first inspection.  

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Ante Vujic and @Mark Ainley thank you for your expertise.  These BiggerPockets forums really are such a great way to both give and receive information.

    I'll post what I figure out.  I think, based on the size of Letts Property Management, I will not be able to get the login/password for the vendor account, but I might be able to get the inspection ID and tenant info that Ante mentioned.

  • Cumming, GA · Member since 2014 · 218 posts · 71 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kenneth Dai:

    @Mark Ainley Thanks for the tip on the water meter.  I do see that the bill is on metered water, rather than estimated water usage.

    @Kenneth Dai, just one small correction:

    your water bill since last year are: water + sewer (100% of water consumption) + garbage

  • Cumming, GA · Member since 2014 · 218 posts · 71 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Mark Ainley:

    @Kenneth Dai ... ...and leave out some of the drastic timelines and the true percentage a unit passes on the first inspection.  

    @Mark Ainley, ^^^ this is Gold!

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Dumitru Anton good clarification - water + sewer together makes sense.  I saw the information about garbage, and was trying to figure out how I know if my property is part of the city garbage runs.  Trash is being picked up, so far as I know, and I couldn't tell from the bill if my property was covered by the city of Chicago.  Should there be a separate line item showing charges for garbage pick up?

  • Cumming, GA · Member since 2014 · 218 posts · 71 votes
    9y

    @Kenneth Dai, I don't have the bill in front of me, but i remember is a flat/per month/unit (you have 2 units) fee for garbage.

    Chicago utility bill Linky

    Chicago Bill Pay Portal Linky

    Chicago Garbage Fee explained

    Register online and you may get more details.

    Continuous success.

    P.S. you are in it for the long-term!!! this is where you get your money back and your headaches eliminated.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Dumitru Anton I agree - long term, I still anticipate this property will address any newbie mistakes I am making.  It does rely on a few assumptions, such as continued occupancy, good property management to keep that occupancy up and maintenance costs reasonable, and that the initial rehab (other than the issues I am experiencing) was of good/durable quality.  Oh, and some appreciation wouldn't hurt wipe out any errors, as well.

  • Investor · Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Brief updates on status: one unit failed its last inspection for three more unresolved items (I was wrong about it passing in earlier post).  They were issues that were observed as part of the initial inspection, so I'm disappointed that they were missed or not resolved before the follow-up inspection.

    Other unit has not had its re-inspection yet, as Letts PM is making doubly-sure everything on the list is resolved before scheduling next inspection.

    One nagging issue seems to be mice/vermin and pest management.  I have asked to have the pest management company come for monthly visits and put traps/bait out around the outside of the property.  The cost is better than the cost of failing inspection after inspection for 'mice infestations'.

    On an improvement note - I do have more contact with the property manager now, and can get a response via text message pretty quickly.  In addition, I've gotten a follow-up call from PFR to help resolve these issues.  Thinking positively, I look forward to reporting in next few weeks that the whole team pulled together and got this property up to snuff to pass inspections.

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