Positive experience with Rent to Retirement
Vijay RadhakrishnanPro Member
New to Real Estate · Chicago, IL · Member since 2024 · 23 posts · 15 votesPositive experience with Rent to Retirement
Most Popular Reply
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
1yQuote from @Stuart Udis:
My comment has nothing to do with comps and your decision to make the repair shouldn't be comp influenced either. If someone is walking down the street and trips on your sidewalk or a walk way whether its a tenant, delivery person or passerby you are the one who gets sued because its premises liability exposure. Even the tenant can sue you if they injure themselves. The fact other properties have chewed up sidewalk isn't a sound legal argument either. The only thing that makes these properties turn key is the fact they are move-in ready for a lower income tenant with low expectations. The properties themselves often have flaws and outstanding cap ex items that are wrongly ignored.
Stu you sound like one of those ambulance chasing attorneys. What are you trying to get at? When an investor decides to buy a 100 year old property in a low income neighborhood it's pretty clear that they are only going to renovate it to the standards of the comps. For investors who want a "perfect property" Rent To Retirement sells new construction homes in more expensive neighborhoods for a higher price point. Up to the investor to decide what it is that they want to pay for. So what exactly is your issue here? You don't walk into a KIA dealership and complain that it doesn't drive like a BMW do you?
14 Replies
- New to Real Estate · Chicago, IL · Member since 2024 · 23 posts · 15 votes1y
- 1yZach LemasterBusiness MemberRental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Vijay Radhakrishnan Thank you so much for the positive feedback. The Rent To Retirement team is excited to share this journey with you!
Rent To Retirement5334 Reviews - Bend, OR · Member since 2023 · 11 posts · 22 votes1y
It was and is a pleasure working with you, Vijay!
- Select a State · Member since 2010 · 26 posts · 7 votes1y
Hi Vijay,
Can you provide pics, the zip code and numbers so readers can evaluate your deal?
thanks - New to Real Estate · Chicago, IL · Member since 2024 · 23 posts · 15 votes1y
Hi @Glen Rosen, here is the link to the property on Zillow:
68 E Dartmore Ave, Akron, OH 44301 | Zillow
Purchase price was $150k, Rent is $1350 - 1yStuart UdisPro MemberAttorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Vijay Radhakrishnan Your turn key rental needs a new sidewalk and walkway poured. Clear as day premises liability exposure right in your marketing photo. I guess not so turn key after all...
- New to Real Estate · Chicago, IL · Member since 2024 · 23 posts · 15 votes1y
Hi @Stuart Udis, I appreciate the insight! I wouldn't say that this makes the property not turnkey though. It all depends on the market and if tenants actually care about having a new sidewalk and walkway. The comps in this area also do not have a new sidewalk and walkway, yet we were still able to find a good tenant very quickly. I will bring this up to my PM as a ticket item nonetheless. Thanks for the advice!
- 1yStuart UdisPro MemberAttorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
My comment has nothing to do with comps and your decision to make the repair shouldn't be comp influenced either. If someone is walking down the street and trips on your sidewalk or a walk way whether its a tenant, delivery person or passerby you are the one who gets sued because its premises liability exposure. Even the tenant can sue you if they injure themselves. The fact other properties have chewed up sidewalk isn't a sound legal argument either. The only thing that makes these properties turn key is the fact they are move-in ready for a lower income tenant with low expectations. The properties themselves often have flaws and outstanding cap ex items that are wrongly ignored.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes1y
Quote from @Stuart Udis:
My comment has nothing to do with comps and your decision to make the repair shouldn't be comp influenced either. If someone is walking down the street and trips on your sidewalk or a walk way whether its a tenant, delivery person or passerby you are the one who gets sued because its premises liability exposure. Even the tenant can sue you if they injure themselves. The fact other properties have chewed up sidewalk isn't a sound legal argument either. The only thing that makes these properties turn key is the fact they are move-in ready for a lower income tenant with low expectations. The properties themselves often have flaws and outstanding cap ex items that are wrongly ignored.
Stu you sound like one of those ambulance chasing attorneys. What are you trying to get at? When an investor decides to buy a 100 year old property in a low income neighborhood it's pretty clear that they are only going to renovate it to the standards of the comps. For investors who want a "perfect property" Rent To Retirement sells new construction homes in more expensive neighborhoods for a higher price point. Up to the investor to decide what it is that they want to pay for. So what exactly is your issue here? You don't walk into a KIA dealership and complain that it doesn't drive like a BMW do you?
- 1yStuart UdisPro MemberAttorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@James Wise I don't litigate, so no I am not an ambulance chaser. Also not one of the alarmist attorneys who are recommending expensive entity structures. In fact one of the themes of my posts is dissuading investors from over spending on entities and asset protection. Another is the perils of investing passively or through turn key providers in entry level SFH's. My posts aren't specifically about Rent to Retirement, rather the concept more generally.
I am also not concerned with the new construction turn key model, its very different than the lower tier/entry level SFH's and not relevant. You know just as well as I do that the entry level SFH turn key model is nothing but a money grab for the turn key providers and PM's who ultimately manage the properties for them. Most of the investors buying the homes don't have a clue what they are doing or what a good investment looks like.
It's a problem when safe walkways are a cost burden and can't be absorbed. That points to how razor thin the margins are when dealing with these properties and how the smallest of issues can turn these properties upside down for the investor buyer but very few know this as they are posting ringing endorsements. As I said earlier, moving in a tenant is the standard that's applied in making these properties "turn key" and that doesn't bode well for most of the investors buying them.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes1y
Quote from @Stuart Udis:
@James Wise I don't litigate, so no I am not an ambulance chaser. Also not one of the alarmist attorneys who are recommending expensive entity structures. In fact one of the themes of my posts is dissuading investors from over spending on entities and asset protection. Another is the perils of investing passively or through turn key providers in entry level SFH's. My posts aren't specifically about Rent to Retirement, rather the concept more generally.
I am also not concerned with the new construction turn key model, its very different than the lower tier/entry level SFH's and not relevant. You know just as well as I do that the entry level SFH turn key model is nothing but a money grab for the turn key providers and PM's who ultimately manage the properties for them. Most of the investors buying the homes don't have a clue what they are doing or what a good investment looks like.
It's a problem when safe walkways are a cost burden and can't be absorbed. That points to how razor thin the margins are when dealing with these properties and how the smallest of issues can turn these properties upside down for the investor buyer but very few know this as they are posting ringing endorsements. As I said earlier, moving in a tenant is the standard that's applied in making these properties "turn key" and that doesn't bode well for most of the investors buying them.
For a dude who isn't an alarmist attorney, you're making a pretty big deal out of the OP's sidewalk. When someone buys an entry level property like this, there are definitely a lot of risks involved, so sure, you and I can agree on that. To be completely 100 with you, I don't know if you are aware or not, but Rent To Retirement advertises some of their new construction homes on my Investment Properties For Sale Show. The reason I approached them about putting their offerings on my show is because I wanted to diversify my product offerings beyond the low income stuff that I specialize in so I could present investors with options that come with varying levels of risk.
I do not agree with you that investors won't make money in the low income space at all tho. That's simply not true. What is true is that the low income space is definitely not for everyone, hence my desire to be able to provide options for multiple types of investors with varying risk appetites'. It looks like this particular investor preferred the low level price point and the risks that come along with it even though he was buying from a company who could offer him both types of investments on the complete opposite side of the risk spectrum. So the only foul I see here is you throwing pot shots at this company when your issue isn't even really related to them at all. That's bush league.
Lastly, for what it's worth, I dunno why you're trying to die on the sidewalk hill. There could be some real interesting back and fourth discussions to be had on the pro's and con's and risk's of these sub $200k houses in the Midwest, but I've been through thousands of tenants at thousands of these 100 year old properties in my career, and I've never been sued for a sidewalk slip and fall. Making that sidewalk seem like some big friggin thing when it's not is giving me a heavy Ambulance Chaser vibe.
- 1yStuart UdisPro MemberAttorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
No pot shots as you say are being thrown at anyone. My comments aren't about rent to retirement, I made that clear. It's with the entry level SFH turn key business model as a whole. It's not RTR's fault the property can't absorb proper cap ex, that's a product of the market. However, I disagree with your comments that the investor buyers who buy these homes have a greater appetite for risk and know the risks that exist. That's simply not true. Most are also not considering between the new construction product and the entry level SFH with risk being the deciding factor. In fact very few fall within that category. Most buy the entry level SFH because its what they are qualified to purchase.
Most investors who buy these homes believe they are investing in a safer investment because it came from a turn key provider. They equate the period leading up to the time its ready to rent as the risky part of the real estate process and pay a premium to bypass that part but this leaves them with unreasonable expectations because the real estate they purchase is inherently risky. Active operators are far more likely to succeed in the entry level SFH space and that's not who buys entry level homes from turn key operators.
I'm with you that sidewalk slip and fall litigation may be less likely in the Midwest than say Mid Atlantic which tends to have more litigious cities but dismissing premises liability issues can come back to bite an investor and when these properties have such razor thin margins that an investor must consider the cost benefit analysis of safety against ROI, there is a real estate issue and is usually a losing proposition.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes1y
Quote from @Stuart Udis:
No pot shots as you say are being thrown at anyone. My comments aren't about rent to retirement, I made that clear. It's with the entry level SFH turn key business model as a whole. It's not RTR's fault the property can't absorb proper cap ex, that's a product of the market. However, I disagree with your comments that the investor buyers who buy these homes have a greater appetite for risk and know the risks that exist. That's simply not true. Most are also not considering between the new construction product and the entry level SFH with risk being the deciding factor. In fact very few fall within that category. Most buy the entry level SFH because its what they are qualified to purchase.
Most investors who buy these homes believe they are investing in a safer investment because it came from a turn key provider. They equate the period leading up to the time its ready to rent as the risky part of the real estate process and pay a premium to bypass that part but this leaves them with unreasonable expectations because the real estate they purchase is inherently risky. Active operators are far more likely to succeed in the entry level SFH space and that's not who buys entry level homes from turn key operators.
I'm with you that sidewalk slip and fall litigation may be less likely in the Midwest than say Mid Atlantic which tends to have more litigious cities but dismissing premises liability issues can come back to bite an investor and when these properties have such razor thin margins that an investor must consider the cost benefit analysis of safety against ROI, there is a real estate issue and is usually a losing proposition.
Lots of generalizations in there. How do you know who does and doesn't know what risks are involved when they make an investment? I talk about the risks involved in investing in rental properties on HoltonWiseTV everyday, and my content has been viewed in the neighborhood of 50 million times. How many views has BiggerPockets had on their content on this stuff? 100's and 100's of Millions of views? Clearly there is a sizeable amount of people consuming content about this stuff.
Furthermore, there are literally millions of entry level rental properties in the Midwest. Are you really going to argue that none of the millions of investors who own them have made any money? That's ridiculous.
I get it man, you're an attorney. You're gonna argue anything I say until the end of time. Hell, i've seen attorneys volley contracts back and fourth with each other for months on end arguing things like the meaning of the word "the" in "the contract".....All while racking up those $500/hour billable hours of course.
Case and point, I won't change your outlook on the industry. You hate Midwest cash flow properties. There are millions of investors who love them. If you think buying entry level homes in the Midwest is a loser, I'd advise you to buy something else, like a New Construction Rental in the Sunbelt. This is why I like RTR. I see value in working with people who want Midwest entry level homes and as well as the higher end New Construction stuff in growth markets. So rather than go around in circles trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I wanted to be able to work with investors who had either outlook. It's why Red Lobster carries chicken on the menu. You want the chicken bro? Order the chicken, but don't dump on the OP, RTR, or an entire segment of the industry for getting the lobster.
- 1yStuart UdisPro MemberAttorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
The lack of awareness of the risks is easily observed in posts written every day in these forums. I never said you can't make money buying entry level single family homes in the Midwest or any market for that matter....but the investors who are most inclined to succeed are the hands on operators, not the passive investors or those paying retail price for a turn key in a lower tier neighborhood with no barriers of entry. The narrative that these are cash flowing properties is aggressively pushed by everyone who benefits from these transactions...turn key operators....brokers....pm's but its incredibly difficult for the non hands on buyers to operate these homes for a sustainable period of time.
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