Anderson Business Advisors
Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 56 votes
I'm interested in talking to anyone that has hired Anderson Business Advisors for help with asset protection strategies. This is the firm founded by author Clint Coons who wrote Asset Protection for Real Estate Investors.
I'd like to hear about your experiences, good or bad. I am considering having them help with the creation of LLCs and land trusts for my buy-and-hold investment properties. They were not able to provide references due to client confidentiality.
Ken - I haven't hired those guys but I'd argue a couple things:
1) Too many attorneys in the REI space $ell fear that you need this or that structure in order to protect your assets.
2) Too many investors get scared off by what appears to be something complex -- forming a holding company (whether LLC, LLP, C or S-corp). It's not that complex.
3) Too many investors are under-insured and fail to frequently review their insurance policies.
Bottom line is this:
1) Find a competent attorney that will give you the holding company structure of your choice (talk to your CPA, not your attorney about what is best for you) documents in a word format. It's all broiler plate anyway. You should be able to reuse your docs for each deal you do without having to go back to the attorney for a new op agreement etc.
2) Forming a LLC etc is easy. Don't get scared by the legalese or the crazy attorneys trying to sell something. A LLC is just a bucket for carrying something around. In our case, it's a piece of property. At the same time, USE your holding companies. Make sure you shift an asset into it. I'm frequently shocked by the number of people who maintain rentals in their personal name. Don't forget to run separate books and bank accounts for your holding companies and have an annual meeting.
3) Review your insurance policies frequently. Make sure you have enough insurance personally (umbrella plus good underlying liability in relationship to your net worth) and corporately (same thing - umbrella plus underlying coverage). This is your first line of defense. Your Wyoming/Nevada/Delaware LLC won't do crap for you if a tenant slips and falls. It just hides the fact that you are the owner.
Anyway, final disclaimer: I'm not an attorney or a CPA. I don't pretend to be one even on the internet. This is my advice based on what's worked for me. Don't get scared off by some attorney. Get out there, write offers and do deals.
Patricia, like you, I chose to educate myself. I learned a lot watching several of Coon's teachings on YouTube and I've also read the comments and appreciate each perspective. As for me personally, my investments are in single-family rental properties. Based on good legal counsel I did the following for each property; I set up a two-member LLC ($100 filing fee), Quitclaimed each property into the name of the LLC and recorded it with the county, applied for an IRS EIN for each LLC, set up a separate bank account in the name of the LLC, secured $1M liability insurance coverage and had the insurance company identify the LLC as the "primary" insured, hired a property management company identifying the LLC as the client, made sure rental contracts are in the name of the LLC and I file Form 1065 tax returns for each LLC. NOTHING is in my name of the name of the other LLC member. My assets strictly follow the legal structure for which LLC's were created (to limit the liability of its members). I'm 55 and throughout my life I've learned to consider risk assessment, and I've determined the structure I've carefully followed minimizes my liability and protects my assets. "Minimizes" being the key word, which is the same word Anderson uses on their website. It doesn't say "remove." Ultimately, the question I asked myself is this; if LLCs were set up to limit liability then why do I need to go with an additional Turn Key service facilitated by a third-party to accomplish the same thing, or what my attorney will do to protect my assets if challenged – as long as I set up the LLC correctly and made sure nothing is in my name by which the "veil can be pierced." I recommend this link for your review;
@Matthew McNeil Awesome post by the way - Can you share if you used any services from others or just did everything yourself? How did you verify everything was setup correctly?
@Patricia Smith - I spent numerous hours researching from multiple sources the whole LLC question and asset protection matter and all the rabbit holes it opens. I gathered all my notes in a 50+ pages document touching on formation and maintenance of LLC and business structures, transferring assets, protection strategies, trusts, anonymity, insurance, levels of protection, etc. including when you should do it, how many properties per LLC, due on sale clause, selecting an attorney, fees, checklists and resource materials.
There is no absolute answer and unique tool/strategy in anything real estate. You need to learn how to use all the tools available to you (financing, insurance, management, etc.) and to understand how they fit together in your toolbox, as none will give you everything (e.g, insurance is required and it will cover you for many situations, but not always; asset protection (LLC) is litigation insurance and complements regular insurance, by minimizing the target and making it unappealing).
If you are a new investor, probably you will not have a lot of assets and/or equity to worry about (but even that is relative and subjective to each person tolerance to risk) so I would not worry about that till you pass that risk threshold (in my opinion 100K+ in equity, maybe 50K if you are really risk adverse) and you should be primarily concerned with finding good deals and growing your business first. Regardless, you need to implement insurance and proper management procedures, regardless of how many assets and equity you have. So, learn about that first - and a good point to start is a Nolo book (https://www.amazon.com/Every-Landlords-Property-Protection-Guide/dp/1413307000/) mentioned in the doc, it will explain about insurance, how to evaluate insurance, and then about property management, property code, proper leasing and all the way to LLC and hiring.
My notes file are primarily on asset protection, and primarily for buy&hold, but they touch on many other rabbit holes that opens from that (insurance, property management, DOS, transfers, etc.). It should save you many hours of research and hopefully clarify a lot of concepts (or at least I hope it does :>) as to why you want it and when and how. Let me know if you are interested, and I can send them to you - just send a colleague request (to exchange files need to be colleagues) or your email.
@Matthew McNeil - you made one possible mistake - you quitclaimed the deed to the property - operation that usually doesn't carry the title insurance. It is the cheapest of the options for transferring the property, but there is a reason for that.
@Costin I. Just DM'med you for the notes! Can you share?
@Jonathan James Look Did you ever end up moving forward with Anderson?
@Wilco Ravestijn How has been your experience so far with Anderson (since your replied 3 months ago)? I have a question on Anderson's tax services. Do they have a CPA service in house that will do your taxes with the Platinum package or is it mainly an advisory service with consultations as needed. If no CPA service, what if their advice conflicts with your current CPA? Would they be able to recommend a firm more aligned with their services?
@Jonathan Vu Same question - did you ever move forward with them for tax service and preparation?
Greetings. Apologies in advance for the long post/rant but looking for some feedback regarding my experience with Anderson.
I had a call with ABA a few months ago. The phone call was very "sell-me-now"-ish, which is fine I was already expecting that. On the call I told the advisor what I wanted (WY LLC and 2nd LLC in the state I intended to buy RE). Although he kept pitching the Platinum Pkg for $11k I said no, just want the 2 LLC's which he gave me an estimate of about $5k. The call ended with him agreeing to email me a breakdown of my package and what exactly I was getting for my money. He also advised me to feel free to email any questions I had forgotten to ask on the call. All seemed well.
Well, I never got that email from him. I did get several emails and phone calls from 2 different assistants asking how was the call and if I wanted to schedule a follow-up consultation. Nope, just waiting on that email I was promised so that I can give you my business... but hey. When I sent a follow up email for the price breakdown, and with a tax question I had, he responded with "recap, we spoke about price and I said about $5k". Several weeks later I received a call from him directly, asking "hey just following up to see if you're still interested in setting up those LLC's"... My response, "Yup, still waiting on the reply email from you with price breakdown and the answer to my tax question". He stated he'll pull up the email and get right back to me. That was 1 month ago. Still nothing.
So here's my question(s), would it be wrong of me to call ABA and request a different advisor, or is this advisor's etiquette indicative of the entire company? Is this to be expected since I'm not buying their $11k Platinum Pkg? Are these guys the only game in town and can compile the same structure?
Any feedback would be appreciative. Thanks.
@George L. Can you fill us in on how this ended up today?
I just signed with them. Here's why:
Reason 1: anonymity. After moving my office home my name is attached to too many properties and easily findable. I manage 8 companies now all with significant public exposure. Better safe than sorry. This move will likely prevent a lawsuit, however unlikely, from happening due to unobtainable info.
Reason 2: I am reducing my administrative responsibilities as much as possible. Having them keep filings up to date is small but one less thing for my "to do" list. I'm trying to keep the "passive part" of investing alive and well. Rather than hire an assistant, I'm outsourcing and they are part of that picture.
Reason3: I'm vigilant about tax maneuvers, prom notes, and how S Corps, C corps and LLC's can interact for significant tax savings. Everyone may not be at that level, but things get complicated and to get on the phone and ask simple legal questions will be helpful, and what the tax ramification is. I had an incident last month in which I think I would already have saved money.
I've just begun with Anderson so I can't attest to value, but happy to report down the road as I'm deeper into this relationship.
@Genna Golden Can you give us an update on ABA? How is everything going?
I have been with Anderson Business since starting my business in 2019. when you join you are assigned a team. Tax coordinator , Account manager and a Advisor. The service is not cheap. I have the platinum package. As far as structure implementation they are very good. Turn around time on creating LLC'S are good. I use there tax team for my personal and business taxes. They can also do your bookkeeping. Anything you need for asset protection they are top notch. They have lawyers to review document if needed.
The negative I have is that they are now too big. The business has grown in volume and the respond time is poor. Sometimes it can be a few days before you get an reply back whether its email or phone call. If you need a lawyer's advice it usually takes 7-10 days unless you pay for expedited service which is $250-up depending. Mainly because your assign team also has other clients and overwhelmed. I'm looking to leave for these reasons. I have missed out on opportunities because it has taken them to long to respond.
@Robert Walker Can you give us an update? Did you switch?
@Ken Weiner I, personally have not hired Anderson Advisors, but I have attended their Asset Protection seminar which was very educational. However, I've spoken with them 3 times since the seminar in December to see if it's a "fit", and unfortunately, if you don't sign up for their Platinum PKG at the seminar, the information via phone call, is hard-sell, with alot of info. without info until you sign up. I almost went for the Platinum package, but when I inquired more on complete details about what it covers, and if it would all encompass tax assistance, CPA, legal advice, transfer my IRA's into a QRP, etc. for the price of $2995/year and $35/month, they said NO. I'd have to get another program for QRP at $5,000/year. I was left with the impression that if I sign up for the Platinum, then that was just to get me in the door with access to attorney questions anytime, but tax assistance was an additional cost. Agreed @Laura Richards, it seems a bit excessive in cost and unnecessarily complicated, and I personally would not recommend for a beginner. Unless someone is well established in their business, I would start small until you've got the money and assets to digest those kinds of fees. I'm sure Anderson is great - but for those more established.
$35/mth
This gives you access to the unlimited questions and answers on rei topics.
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(Package) 1x LLC - $1800
LLC Add-ons: $135/ register agent (annual)
LLC Add-ons: $250/ business address (annual)
(Package) 1x Land Trust - $1300
HOPE THIS HELPS ANYONE INTERESTED :)
I am very interested in business and Real Estate and I love sourcing info and data. This was the call i had with Jeremy at Anderson Business Advisors just now.
I'm interested in talking to anyone that has hired Anderson Business Advisors for help with asset protection strategies. This is the firm founded by author Clint Coons who wrote Asset Protection for Real Estate Investors.
I'd like to hear about your experiences, good or bad. I am considering having them help with the creation of LLCs and land trusts for my buy-and-hold investment properties. They were not able to provide references due to client confidentiality.
@Bob Smith Glad to help. This is how the tax/book keeping side works. You buy a package of 160 "credits" (I think there is also a version where you can get 320 credits but I didn't do this at first and I am unsure of the cost at the moment) which you can use whenever you want for however you want. Depending on who you are talking with, they pull from those credits at an hourly rate:
Book keepers pull 7 credits per hour
Tax Preparers pull 10 credits per hour
CPA/Attorneys pull 20 credits per hour
They will set up everything up for you without using any of those credits. (a side note you have to ask them for build a spreadsheet that shows you how much you have used and what's left because they have a glitch in their system where they don't automatically do this) Quick books online which comes with a discount from QBO due to their relationship with Anderson. They will even allow you to use your credits for them to train or teach their system to an accountant that you choose to bring in which is what I initially planned on doing. (That accountant advised me to use the plus version online "$35 per month per entity" because of it's capabilities for class and location codes. I recommend using class codes, and setting up a class code for every property you buy and/or sell. When class codes are enabled, every transaction can be assigned to a class code and from that information, you can run a Profit and Loss Statement not just as a total aggregate number but broken down by each property. That way you can see the individual profitability for each of your projects and compare which ones did better and which did worse. Based on what you said about multiple entities this may be of a benefit to you)
In terms of level of detail. They seem to have an incredible amount of detail and specificity that they will provide. In my walkthrough set up meeting with the book keeping supervisor and my personal assigned book keeper, they walked me through QBO that they had already set up (they are very systematic in their set up and process and it's very easy to follow), they showed me how to use it (or another accountant if I wanted), they had everything from my property, bank accounts etc in and walked me through. They were under the impression that I was bringing my own accountant so they left some things off, but when I told them that I was going to use them they quickly said that they were going add more detail, and complete everything for my review. I also asked as I mentioned above about the ability to build out custom reports based on the financial information that they are getting and the supervisor said that she would work on some custom reports for me. (She hasn't delivered that yet so I'm not sure how helpful that they will be just yet). But all and all they seem very detail and flexible to my needs and are willing to custom tailor what you want within the guidelines of their package.
To answer your last question they do not have different charges for multiple entities. But they bill according to those credit rates above so if it takes them a super long time to do your book, my sense is that they will use more credits to do them. Just to give you a sense of how fast they use that time, I gave them 3 entities and everything that I have mentioned here over the last month cost me 3.22 billable hours or 22.54 credits. (137.46 credits left).
Now I forgot to mention this but I haven't even touched the taxes side of things. They first will do a thorough audit of your last 2 years of taxes for ALL entities and then walk you through where things are good and where you may be at risk and then create a tax strategy moving forward. Their tax manager literally spent 2.5 hours in a deep dive and answered all of my questions (and I had a TON) and I learned an enormous amount from that conversation. That doesn't count against your credits. If you do platinum like I did they will put all notes in a "box" file on their platform, upload all of your entity information and you have lots of legal forms to use. You can have unlimited conversations with their legal team, unlimited email responses from their tax team and a Sr. Advisor or higher to bring it all together in a cohesive strategy. Since they have everything in-house, they will ask you how you want to handle your taxes and if you choose to do them with them the book keepers will transfer all of your financials over to them and they fill out (or you) a form that goes with it and then everything is done at that point. You use your credits for them to do your taxes at the rate I gave you above.
I hope that answers everything!
@Jerry W., as far as I know, the firm discussed here would simply recommend an LLC for holding a rental property. When there are multiple rental properties in question, more than one property can reside in the same LLC, or properties can be divided across multiple LLCs as many other sources on biggerpockets have advocated. Anderson Business Advisors seems to prefer more separation of property across business entities than I think is warranted for many investors given the availability of affordable insurance policies, but that topic has been covered in other threads already.
With respect to trusts, I have seen this advocated to facilitate transfer of rental business into the LLC. For example, if the property has a conventional mortgage, and title is transferred to the LLC, it could prompt the bank to consider executing the mortgage's due-on-sale clause, but transferring title to a trust would not raise the same red flag. I have not seen any claim that the trust provides liability protection on its own.
Any additional "secret sauce" structure being referenced by this thread is openly disclosed on YouTube by the founders of the firm and can be adopted without the need to pay for their services. For example, the notion of a "holding" LLC (in a state with charging order protection) that owns other LLCs (in the states where the rental properties are located) is not unique to this firm, but it is certainly promoted more dominantly by this firm than other sources I've come across. The main pieces missing for the DIY-er would be (a) the lack of insight into whether these templates are suitable for a specific business case, e.g. state-specific legal ramifications, and (b) the lack of legal forms such as appropriate articles of organization or trust documents. If you're interested in the overall "holding LLC" structure but have another source of business and legal advice to help fill in the gaps, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to move forward. One notable exception might be with respect to starting a C corp for the sole purpose of flipping homes, as most CPAs I know would push back on that route.
I would hope that people considering using their services would be doing so with the understanding that their advisor would custom-tailor a solution for their specific circumstances, but I have the impression that the founders feel the sample structures described online are flexible enough to serve as starting points for the majority of their clients.
Jonathan Lee, great observation on the services provided by Anderson Tax advisors. They seem to advocate that their basic template applies to all investors, minus small caveats for respective states. The business structure ideas Anderson provides can be replicated by individuals doing it on their own. Obviously, they might fall short on creating a robust operating agreement and maximizing tax savings. Clint and Toby of Anderson Tax advisors seems to be knowledgeable on t asset protection realm. However, their costs to form an LLC at $1800 per LLC seems overly expensive; when it costs roughly $200 for one to form an LLC in your own or using the services of other LLC formation companies. I must admit, having tax, cpa and LLC formation under one roof is attractive to me for ease of transactions.
I made an appointment on the phone, arrived on time and the lady Kelly who was supposed to meet us did not show up. We were offered water and coffee while waiting and never got any. After 15 minutes of waiting for Kelly (LV Rainbow location) the lady at the front desk told us Kelly is at a 2-day seminar and will not be showing up. The receptionist said she sent emails and called to tell me she cannot be there. I told here I did not get any messages nor email. Then the receptionist looked at me as if I am at fault. She NEVER apologized. I walked out. Thinking my cell phone is not working and maybe I missed some emails, I went back home to check my emails on my laptop and did not see a single email from them. Very bad customer service and the sales rep lied to protect themselves. Their beginning package is $2450 set up fee plus $35 per month. Pay it if you are interested in this kind of service.
Beaty, Thanks for providing the first hand negative experience with Anderson Tax Advisors. That’s awful customer service from Kelly and the receptionist.
@Laura Richards - follow up your post
1. If Land Trust is used - What is the recommended entity for trustee for anonymity? natural person or WY LLC?
2. If Land Trust is used - can i be owned by WST or DSW directly (as a holding trust) or it needs to go inside the LLC first?
3. Can we have a separate operating LLC to handle contract agreement with local management company and to receive/disburse the rent income on the property owned by Land Trust or LLC in item 2?
@Matthew McNeil - I love your dyi approach - not only cost effective way and also get things done quickly. I am more concerned of drafting/using the correct verbiage in the Trust or LLC agreements there. Any suggestion?
The FL statute was change a few years ago; now the same entity acting as bene can also serve as T/ee. I have only used an LLC as Trustee, but since the trustee does nothing but hold title on behalf of the trust (bc a piece of paper can't hold title to real property) it really is just a personal preference. Plenty of people on here will tell you LLC is the only way to go (and only their LLC) because they want to charge you a yearly trustee fee - not necessary.
Too many acronyms - WST DSW
Yes, that LLC can act as a "property manager" if you dont want your Trustee doing these things for you. Seems like overkill though, IMHO.
I personally do not recommend Anderson Advisors. I believe their strategy and reasoning behind asset protection is good, but their team's execution of the plan has been long and complicated. They give you lots of resources with links to you tube videos, open office hours and online Q and A's, which are good, but I can't get the answers to the questions without attending these events. I just wanted to hire someone and have them take care of it. Still in process of converting entities and getting paperwork straight 10 months down the road.
I personally do not recommend Anderson Advisors. I believe their strategy and reasoning behind asset protection is good, but their team's execution of the plan has been long and complicated. They give you lots of resources with links to you tube videos, open office hours and online Q and A's, which are good, but I can't get the answers to the questions without attending these events. I just wanted to hire someone and have them take care of it. Still in process of converting entities and getting paperwork straight 10 months down the road.
Maybe he said the management company, not the holding company, was unnecessary, my noobie brain is a mite confused. He said it was probably a bad idea to turn passive income (real estate) into active earnings via salary from a management corp. Also, his consultation rate is $525/hour, not $500. Anyhoo, if his goal was to business-build for his employer, it's a fail, since he offered no alternate plan, just negating Anderson's along with most everything else, and inviting me to pay him for consultation, even though there is seemingly no point to anything. So not motivating.
I just signed up for the Titanium VIP Service. I will update you on how well its going in about 30 days
@Quenton Mullins any update on your experience?
You could just to to www.wyomingcompany.com and they do a much better job and have lawyers available to help you.
@Kelly Custer My small town lawyer has the same attitude about setting up trusts, just fluff. He didn't even ask why I'd want to set up a trust. I mean, there's a reason they exist. By the way, who is WCG?
@Kelly Custer My small town lawyer has the same attitude about setting up trusts, just fluff. He didn't even ask why I'd want to set up a trust. I mean, there's a reason they exist. By the way, who is WCG?
Being a lawyer doesn't mean you know everything, that's for sure. I am still wrapping my own little head around it all, that's why I was willing to pay a premium for the right help.
I just watched an Anderson/Toby Mathis YouTube on land trusts for real estate. Anderson recommends them for your residence for one, which will be in an LLC under a--I don't remember the word so I'm going to call it a proxy trustee, with you as the beneficiary who has full control and anonymity. What is really interesting to me, is his instructions to use land trusts to purchase real estate, so properties never go in your name, even briefly. I am really over my head, just trying to keep getting familiarity until I use it and then truly understand the concepts.
WCG Inc was recommended earlier in this thread as an alternative to Anderson. They are an accounting and business consulting firm in Colorado. They appeared to offer the same services for much less money than Anderson (minus all the free educational classes and office hours for legal and other questions). But after the free consult, I feel like I'm going to be hit with $525 hourly consult rates for even more questionable results, so might as well pay the premium with Anderson.
I am now leaning towards upgrading my Anderson Platinum to Titanium, since by the time I build out my Anderson structure, their costs will get me close to the price of their unlimited LLC Titanium membership. If I am going to keep building my empire, it will be a good investment. And I do like being able to call and ask questions, even if I can't fully put the answers in context yet. Though I'm about to check out wyomingcompany.com recommended by Nate Marshall above!
@Kelly Custer My small town lawyer has the same attitude about setting up trusts, just fluff. He didn't even ask why I'd want to set up a trust. I mean, there's a reason they exist. By the way, who is WCG?
Being a lawyer doesn't mean you know everything, that's for sure. I am still wrapping my own little head around it all, that's why I was willing to pay a premium for the right help.
I just watched an Anderson/Toby Mathis YouTube on land trusts for real estate. Anderson recommends them for your residence for one, which will be in an LLC under a--I don't remember the word so I'm going to call it a proxy trustee, with you as the beneficiary who has full control and anonymity. What is really interesting to me, is his instructions to use land trusts to purchase real estate, so properties never go in your name, even briefly. I am really over my head, just trying to keep getting familiarity until I use it and then truly understand the concepts.
WCG Inc was recommended earlier in this thread as an alternative to Anderson. They are an accounting and business consulting firm in Colorado. They appeared to offer the same services for much less money than Anderson (minus all the free educational classes and office hours for legal and other questions). But after the free consult, I feel like I'm going to be hit with $525 hourly consult rates for even more questionable results, so might as well pay the premium with Anderson.
I am now leaning towards upgrading my Anderson Platinum to Titanium, since by the time I build out my Anderson structure, their costs will get me close to the price of their unlimited LLC Titanium membership. If I am going to keep building my empire, it will be a good investment. And I do like being able to call and ask questions, even if I can't fully put the answers in context yet. Though I'm about to check out wyomingcompany.com recommended by Nate Marshall above!
What strategies is he proposing?
Transparency is everything these days.
What strategies is he proposing?
Transparency is everything these days.
Do you mean my Anderson advisor? He offered (several) entity structure proposals for my seven properties in two states. I approved when he offered one that preserves the business history of the one LLC I already have, so that I can create greater fundability to buy more. I could explain in detail, or post the diagram if anyone is interested.
So NOW, after deciding to go Titanium, I decided instead to spend that money to sign up with Wealth Factory/Gunderson which is a more close mentorship than the classes, library and question lines at Anderson. Definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison to Anderson, but I'm told they will guide me through my entities and I will only be paying the state formation fees, the rest will be included in THEIR exorbitant fees. I will probably go with their tax department, the fees sound more straightforward than Anderson. Anderson's tax service requires $5k upfront retainer, which should last 2-3 years.
I am also interested in the 360 investing. I would love to hear your experience if you start.
I like the courses, too, I just don't have the time to take advantage, I'm overextended. I went with Wealth Factory to be more efficiently guided. But Infinity Investing and a real estate club or whatever you'd call it, sound really good at Anderson. So much to do.
How are you finding your Titanium membership? What are you using it for so far?
What package did you buy with Wealth factory and what are the advantages?