Snow removal expectations

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Snow removal expectations

Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes

How do you manage snow removal and expectations?

By far, this is my biggest headache as a landlord. We’re on our second snow removal company and neither have been great, but it is so hard finding someone who is insured and is willing to shovel.

What does your contract look like with removal companies? We’re getting a big storm and tenants are getting impatient that our guy hasn’t shown up yet. Personally, I think it is unrealistic to expect immediate removal during a storm. Our lease states we remove anything over two inches, as does our contract work the snow removal company, but we can’t possibly expect he will be there exactly when two inches hits.

My biggest concern is always liability. We are adequately insured, but that doesn’t ease my mind much. We just got a text saying, “My husband almost slipped.” Any tips on managing this?

We do leave shovels and salt on the property, but I specifically try to avoid asking them to shovel. Some tenants just do pitch in, but I like to avoid that if possible.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
7y

Our country is slowly developing into a nation of litigious wimps.

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  • Mike McCarthy
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Our snow guy pre-salts sidewalks before the snow. It doesn’t solve the issue for large snowfalls, but helps with slips.

    But thats the problem with any company, they have 100 places to shovel and plow, and can’t do all of them at once.

    Here, there’s a city ordinance that all sidewalks need to be cleared within 6 hours. Maybe your city/town has a similar requirement you can reference as what your area considers ‘standard’.

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  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Mike McCarthy

    Pre-salting is a great tip. I’ve never considered doing that, but we will start.

    We are required to remove the snow within 24 hours of snow fall, so technically we aren’t in the wrong and neither is our snow removal company. We do have an agreement that during major storms he will come mid-snow, but we did not nail down a specific time. We thought that would be unreasonable, and I’m confident he will get there when he can. Although I’m also confident we are at the bottom of the priority list, especially because it requires lots of shoveling. The bigger issue seems to be managing tenant expectations.

    I think I’ve done a fine job documenting the steps we will take and responding to their concerns, but I’m always worried someone will go out mid-storm, fall, and blame us. I don’t know what more we could possibly do to be proactive (other than pre-salt).

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  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Seems more slips and falls happen after the snow has been shoveled. That's when the surface can become thin, icy, and slick.  I always feel more secure walking through deep or compacted snow. Freezing rain is the worst!

    Last year we put down a product for melting ice and it ruined our sidewalk. If you have older sidewalks take great care with chemical products. I don't know the pros and cons of using salt. How effective is it and how does it affect the environment?

    Tenant expectations can be tricky to handle. An open and honest conversation with the tenants about what is reasonable would be a good place to start. You can never guarantee the safety of others. Tenants need to use caution when venturing out in inclement weather. You'll do your part, but they need to do their part as well, remind them of that.

    Kudos on getting a plan together in advance of the storm!

    1Reply
  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    7y

    @Jamie Brayton I feel your pain. It’s seems like a lot of us are in the same snow removal conundrum. We are at the mercy of others to do a job that’s leaves us exposed in the event it’s not done promptly or properly.

    Wanted to dig this thread up in hopes of a good debate between BP’ers on the never ending snow removal dilemma. Iv been sorting through old threads but no one has seemed to hit the nail on the head. It’s seems as though many others hire companies to come, when a certain amount of snow falls. But what if it’s snows less, and what about refreezes?

    My situation is with my 3 unit property with separate entrances, a fairly large public sidewalk, and 4 car parking lot. The lease stats the landlord is responsible for snow removal, and we gladly hire this out to a local contractor. Their policy is they show up when there is at least 3 inches of snow. My issue, or question then is what to do when there is less than 3 inches of snow. Doing it myself is not an option. There are shovels on all of their porches, as well as a 5 gallon bucket of salt. My leases recently turned over and now with our first snowfall, one of my tenants is referring to the lease and saying we are responsible for it. It’s actually our 3rd snowfall, but first above 1 inch, and below 3. Quite frankly I’m not shoveling my own property, because it will all melt in the next few hours.

    My question is what are y’all doing in this situation. As soon as I post this I will be heading to google to track down my state/City’s ordinances are, but I’d like to hear what everyone thinks from a business standpoint, as well as a liability standpoint. One solution I have is that one tenant is happy to shovel and ice in these storms, and I could ask him to do the entire profit. I’m even willing to compensate him. Which some will argue will open a new employment can of worms.

    It’s really a shame reading through all of these snow removal threads and seeing countless landlords, most of us with the best intentions, worried sick about someone carelessly slipping on ice on their property and single handedly wiping out years worth of rental income. I even saw that in one state MO I think, your liability goes UP if you remove the snow and someone gets hurt. Imagine that. Any and all opinions and advice is appreciated.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    7y

    Our country is slowly developing into a nation of litigious wimps.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    9Reply
  • Jacob L.
    Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    Hi,

    What i am do is going to a local store such as grocery etc. looking for the delivery boy they usually have some extra time before and after their working hours and they are ALWAYS hungry for some extra dollars, they are doing it for a cheap price with no limits to inches or anything else

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  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Marcia Maynard Great points! We’re using a safer for sidewalk product this year (I should know he name, but can’t recall).

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  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @William C. I think I take such great care of my properties that I really don’t worry about a lawsuit.. except when it comes to SNOW. And I really do stay on top of it. Our leases state we take care of anything over 3 inches, and we are required to remove it within 24 hours per city ordinance. It isn’t realistic that we (or our snow guy) hop in the car mid storm once we’ve hit 3 inches. He does come mid-storm and then again after it is doing snowing, but even then I have tenants asking when he will be there. I never really know and can’t really expect he will always be there at a set time. I worry about these moments the most.

    I honestly think the only solution is to start my own snow removal company. Or grow fast enough to hire 1-2 handymen that can manage all of our properties. I think about this with every snow fall.

    I can find 200 guys that will do it for $25 a snowfall (vs. the insane amount I pay), but none are insured. I worry about this just as much.

    1Reply
  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Jacob Lieberman I think this is a great idea. I always worry about using the uninsured guys because my insurance carrier has made it clear they won’t cover them if an accident occurred. I do think it is probably low risk and I overthink this. There also might be more comprehensive landlord policies than the one we have.

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  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    @Jamie Brayton

    In my opinion you are doing fine as far as managing your contractors is concerned. Your problem is in managing your tenants. Their expectations regarding snow removal are unrealistic. You would think they all just moved here from a tropical country, first time dealing with walking in snow and ice. The problem with tennats is they expect everything to be perfect, home owners know better. Liability wise you appear to be well protected.

    What I do when tenants call with issues of this type is I let them know I will inform my contractor of the issue and they will get their when they can. You do not need to do anything more than that. 

    In some cases that is the end of it, I do not call the contractor as I know he will take care of it in time, and in other cases I will call and pass on the message. He knows that all I expect is that he get there when he can, no pressure.

    You need to better manage your tenants and not be so concerned about your contractor if you are happy with his performance.

    2Reply
  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Thomas S.

    Great advice. Our snow removal service is also terrible, but tenants don’t know that. Although we are switching contractors next year, it has gotten better with some direct communication. If he isn’t there in a timely manner we are, so the tenant issue really is about managing expectations. I think I need to be clearer about what they should expect.

    As for snow removal services, I think we need to shop early to get the best and most reputable guys. At least that will be my strategy this year.

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  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    7y

    @Jamie Brayton so what are you doing when it snows less than 3 inches, but there is still an accumulation? These seem like the most dangerous storms in terms of a slip and fall. People don’t typically slip and fall when they are walking through a foot of snow, it’s the thin sheet of ice over the sidewalk that refroze after you have shoveled away all the snow. Salt works. But who is laying the salt.

    Are we over thinking this as landlords? Are we much less likely to have accident than we think? Does anyone have any anecdotes that would suggest anything else? I’m going to look for some case law to see exactly how negligent a landlord needs to be in order to be liable. I would like the think as he snow is still falling, and someone slips and falls on a property that the landlord can’t seriously be expected to keep everyone cleared at all times.

    Any insurance guys out there have advice for a special policy, or rider for this situation? Or do we just load up on an umbrella policy?

    Great stuff so far from everyone!

    1Reply
  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @William C.

    I’m so glad you asked this. I should have said that my lease states it is their responsibility, but I actually make my husband go salt and shovel it if it won’t melt quickly and temps aren’t high enough to avoid freezing. I want tenants to think of it as their task, but I don’t trust the system.

    One tenant tends to be really on top of this kind of thing, so if there is doubt I shoot him a quick text about conditions. I find that so annoying for both of us.

    We do have a pretty nice front stair setup created by the former owners. The front stairs have a really nice outdoor carpet covering them, which reduces my anxiety some. The sidewalk and landing directly in front of the stairs do get slippery.

    I’d like think that if we’re taking appropriate measures we couldn’t really be at fault, but I’m not sure if that is the case. I’d love to hear from insurance folks, as well.

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  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    I will leave a bag of salt and a shovel for my tenants although I make it clear they are not responsible for using them.  If they wish to go out between my contractors visits and choose not to shovel or salt that is on them and I have done all I can as far as my responsibilities go. 

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  • Travis C.
    Investor · Jamestown, ND · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    Snow removal just like lawn mowing is the responsibility of the tenant in all my rentals.  Why do you guys make it your problem?

    I'm in ND btw, we have alot of snow and ice.

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  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    7y

    @Thomas S. I’m in the same boat. You say you’ve done all you can in terms of responsibility, and I would totally agree....myself and others just wonder if a judge would agree if someone slipped, fell and sued.

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  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    7y

    @Travis Carr do you have any multi unit properties? Impossible for me to make one tenant responsible for shoveling the public sidewalk. And I don’t know if it was mentioned in this thread but I recall seeing in some states the liability falls on the landlord even though the tenant is “responsible” for removing snow. I wish it were as simple as making the tenant take care of it.

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  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Nathan G.

    That’s exactly why I can’t/don’t plow any commercial lots. The added insurance for me to plow commercial is $2000. Residential $50.

    0Reply
  • Mike LeFever
    Rental Property Investor · Utica, NY · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 7 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jamie Brayton:

    @William C. I think I take such great care of my properties that I really don’t worry about a lawsuit.. except when it comes to SNOW. And I really do stay on top of it. Our leases state we take care of anything over 3 inches, and we are required to remove it within 24 hours per city ordinance. It isn’t realistic that we (or our snow guy) hop in the car mid storm once we’ve hit 3 inches. He does come mid-storm and then again after it is doing snowing, but even then I have tenants asking when he will be there. I never really know and can’t really expect he will always be there at a set time. I worry about these moments the most.

    I honestly think the only solution is to start my own snow removal company. Or grow fast enough to hire 1-2 handymen that can manage all of our properties. I think about this with every snow fall.

    I can find 200 guys that will do it for $25 a snowfall (vs. the insane amount I pay), but none are insured. I worry about this just as much.

    I am in the exact same boat with my partner and our plow contractor now. 

    We have already decided to get a truck/plow for our property next year and handle it ourselves. Eventually we would also like to hire a handyman and just let him use the company truck to plow the lot.  

    I have also plowed commercially for the last 6 or so years and the whole time its the same story from the contractor side as well.

    The plow guy can usually please every one of his customers during a 3 inch storm because its quick and easy to move the snow, which is why most contractors pick up 30+ properties with the larger companies having 3-4x that amount. However when a big storm hits and you are relying on a "plow company" that's actually 1 or 2 guys with trucks and 2 snowblowers, lets just say your not going to get the same service you've come to expect during the small storms. At least in terms of speed. 

    In terms of insurance, always worth the few extra dollars up front for a guy who's covered vs. the one who's not.

    2Reply
  • Travis C.
    Investor · Jamestown, ND · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 32 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @William C.:

    @Travis Carr do you have any multi unit properties? Impossible for me to make one tenant responsible for shoveling the public sidewalk. And I don’t know if it was mentioned in this thread but I recall seeing in some states the liability falls on the landlord even though the tenant is “responsible” for removing snow. I wish it were as simple as making the tenant take care of it.

    No, I don't have any multi units, I didn't see anything in the OP about it being multiple family.  My comment was based on sfh. That would be different I understand than say an apartment building.  

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  • Travis C.
    Investor · Jamestown, ND · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    As far as likeliness of getting sued over an icy slip and fall I've only heard about legal action in like 2 situations up here in my town.  Both times at businesses and not rental homes. 

    I have 5 rental homes and my mother has 14.  Tenants are responsible for their own snow removal and neither of us has had any issue at all on the issue.   Its snowy and icy 6 months out of the year here as well. 

    So I don't think it's very common.

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  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Travis Carr

    My apologies— I should have clarified. Our SFH tenants are responsible for removal and our commercial tenants are easy to cover because everyone wants to plow. It is our multi-family that is super tricky. It requires shoveling (possibly snow blowing of some sections), which makes it a challenge for tenants and contractors.

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  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    There are so many variables in plowing snow . When it starts , when it stops , how much is predicted . Then there is traffic , the rest of traffic doesnt pull over to let plow trucks by . Empty parking lots go faster than full lots , same go with driveways .  

    I plow , and we plow with the storm . 2 inches of snow and we are out there working . So if you are first on the list , we plow while its snowing . Then 5 hours later we are back to plow again . And charge for both times . 

    Large snows , everybody waits longer . 

    0Reply
  • Peter B.
    Investor · Ogdensburg, WI · Member since 2016 · 273 posts · 351 votes
    7y

    @Jamie Brayton

    You will never please them all. We have the expectations spelled out in their lease. Still get chronic complainers and threats. Contractors can't control when it comes,how much comes,when the tenant comes home from work or wants to leave. 

    Been doing this nearly 20 yrs. Probably have had 10 different snow removal companies. We have a pretty good one now. He still can't please them all.

    We do something similar to what @Thomas S. does.  I have large bins of sand and salt (free from the county shop) at the garages and front doors. They have to walk by it.. We state in the lease it is free to use by all tenants. Not required..

    In the larger buildings you will always have a helpful tenant more than willing to apply. Come spring our lots look like a sand box.

    @William C.  we have had a couple of claims over the years.. The insurance company seemed please with our system.

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  • Jamie BraytonBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Troy, NY · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 81 votes
    7y

    @Peter B.

    This is great. I’m going to make this revision when we renew leases. We keep supplies our for tenants, as well, so it’s a quick change that could probably alleviate a bit of the headache.

    Do you tackle anything less than 3 inches yourself? Does you snow removal company take care of that?

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