Seasoned real estate agents, where would you have dropped this?

Seasoned real estate agents, where would you have dropped this?

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

As a new Realtor, I had a nice and challenging first offer fall through.  I feel I learned a lot, and know some things to look out for, but I'm curious if you pros would have pursued as far as I did or would have clued into the shady nature sooner.

I'm working with an investor buyer who found me through BP.  We are looking for the elusive flip house in my area, the classic 3/2 block house with high enough comps surrounding to support the 25-30% target profit.  We are also exploring cheap 2/1s with added master suites and other similar options.  We've analyzed a few that look to have thin margins, walked one overpriced one that needed far too much work.  I verbally offered on that but the listing agent was honest about the sellers ability to hold long term before discount.  

I finally found my client a hidden gem: A 1150sqft 3/2 block home listed for $79k in an area with nearly identical $155-165k comps. Horrible single picture, hardly any description, classic! It was tenant occupied, drive by requested, showing after offer and proof of funds. No problem. Wrote up an offer and proof of funds, and tried contacting the listing agent. After a week of calling his cell, office phone, speaking with the office assistant, and emailing him, I finally reached the listing agent. I let him know we had an offer coming and confirmed his email. Submitted the offer Friday with an expiration of Tuesday. By midday Tuesday I figured I'd check in on this offer. Reached out by phone, text, email, office multiple times and couldn't reach the dude. Offer expired and no MLS listed contact info lead to the agent. Offer was over 90% of list, so even a full price counter would have been reasonable. The next morning, Wednesday, I contacted the broker (Lesson learned, I'll do this sooner next time). He replied right back to me and got the listing agent in the loop. L.A. replied with a canned response, thanking me for my interest and instructing offers to be emailed to a DIFFERENT EMAIL?!?!?! Broker responded that I had offered the previous week, I did the same, heard nothing. Later that day, listing withdrawn unconditionally along with 4 other properties by the same seller...... who withdraws a listing when somebody is blowing up your phone trying to offer to buy?

I then looked up phone numbers and addresses for the seller.  Found some non working numbers and eventually left an offer and proof of funds in the locked gate of the seller's local rural property via tax records Friday of the same week.  Seller called me Monday morning and kept me on the phone nearly an hour (should have hung up sooner!), talking up all five properties and offering $2500/property commission that I asked for on the one, accepting my offer, and offering $20k total if I sell all 5 for him as a buyers agent, he had a RE attorney and title company already.  I said I'd see what I could do, and further inquired about the subject property I offered on.  He then stated that he had a pending out of state offer on all five properties, but it was supposed to close that friday and didn't look promising.  If I had a buyer, he wouldn't extend that offer past expiration and they hadn't even inspected or schedule closing.

Great, I get with my client and we prepare a new offer with all cash, quick close, new dates, etc. Line up his contractor and inspector for Monday pending word of the other offer falling through. With this prepared, I reach out to the seller to let him know we had a new offer coming over and as soon as he could sign our offer, we'd pull the trigger on inspections and under 11 day closing from that Monday. He already knew that my client wanted to see the property and his funds were in an IRA with a 48 hour wire transfer delay. Mentioning the GC and inspector coming monday, seller flipped his game at that point. He claimed the 'pending offer' was now looking like it would go through and he'd let me know if not. He needed something to close that week, so Monday was too late (His 'pending offer' had til the friday before, how could he expect to close with another buyer during that period?). He then strangely texted later saying that he couldn't wait on inspections and needed a 24 hour closing all cash, as 10 days cash with an inspection wasn't good enough. Yet this place has been listed off and on since last November... he said if I had any "other" buyers who could close quicker to let him know. I politely let him know that a buyer with funds available in a self directed IRA is about as close to cash as he can demand since it has been listed so long.

So obviously, long story short, this seller is a bit of a nut job.  I don't know if he was trying to hustle a wholesale type deal on his own place, whether he's hiding some major flaw, or just a flaky guy, but obviously this deal wasn't going to go through.  Would the pros who have been hunting investment deals for clients gone this far, or were there red flags that I should have seen as deal breakers?  I know a 1 in 10 on offers accepting is normal, but it was weird for my quest to even submit the offer to have been such an adventure.  I'm on the hunt for the next one, but want to be sure I learn as much as possible from this crazy situation, haha.  I didn't close a deal, but it was fun hunting!   If it were my money on the line, I would have pursued this property just as hard with how good the numbers looked, but if there was a definite "not going to happen" moment I missed, I'd love to catch it next time.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
8y
I, being me, when working as a buyer agent, would do a quick title/lien search of the properties I’d be offering on. You may find some issues there. A seller wanting to close in 48 hours is usually hiding something fatal.
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  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y
    I, being me, when working as a buyer agent, would do a quick title/lien search of the properties I’d be offering on. You may find some issues there. A seller wanting to close in 48 hours is usually hiding something fatal.
  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Wayne Brooks is that something you'd ask a title company to do or do you just mean through public records? Public records and publicly recorded leans looked clean on this one and his claims of title being clear and prepared seemed to align with some quit claims filed last year moving ownership to just his name from a multi-partner situation. I'm thinking anything hidden was more likely to do with the systems of the house as opposed to title, but something was off. I asked around on the other four properties when this seemed legit and one of my broker/flipper friends shared that he had been offered one of the properties wholesale while it was listed at less than both list and the "discounted" prices seller gave me. The red flags were stacking up, but his total shift at the end to Seinfeld soup Nazi style "no house for you" threw me off. haha. thanks for the input Wayne!
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    8y

    You did 2 things that could be completely detrimental to your business.

    You contacted the listing agents broker. And you went around the listing agent to the seller.  Doing the latter here could get you an ethics violation.

    Dont do these things if you want to stay in business.  Your relationships and reputation with other agents is incredibly important to your business.

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Russell Brazil I think you may have misunderstood. I tried for quite some time to reach the listing agent by all means listed on the MLS. When reaching out to his broker it was only to try to reach him. I asked my mentor first and she said that would be acceptable since I had a buyer and couldn't get an offer to the seller. The broker established contact for me but then the listing agent dropped away again and was unreachable. He then withdrew the listing "unconditional" severing the seller's obligations to listing agent. It is only then that I reached out to the seller and only after confirming with my mentor broker that the type of withdrawn listing meant the brokerage had severed ties. I would have much preferred to go through a listing agent, this wasn't a way to try and grab both sides of the deal or anything. what would you have done if you want to offer and cannot reach the listing agent in any way and then the listing is withdrawn unconditional? Definitely striving for ethical business practices!!
  • Investor · Marietta, GA · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Completely agree with Wayne.  There's something wrong here - we're not able to access the facts. (and neither are you) :-)  There's a problem with the seller, agent or both. 

    AND that's a separate issue from the buyer looking for a unicorn. If I find a property that's almost $100k under market, it won't be for a buyer, it will be for me. (and borrow the $$ from the person with cash in their IRA)

    Russell, congrats on choosing real estate as a profession.  You are in one of the few industries that can change your future in ways that a "job" will never be able to do.  I wish you much success. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Russell Brazil I never was successful in getting an offer to the listing agent in 7+ days of trying. he never presented it to the seller either. seller stated the listing agent regularly sent him offers after they had expired or not at all
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    8y

    @Russell Holmes Ah...did not realize the listing is withdrawn.

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Jay Davis thank you! I am working toward being able to jump on deals myself and should be able to later this year, but this one would have been for a client. I'm currently self employed in a service business I started in 07 and am transitioning to RE as soon as possible. my "part time" RE effort is still likely over 30hrs/week. looking forward to freeing up another 50hrs when I can step away from my other business. RE is better than the business I run,but I couldn't fathom having a 'job'. haven't had one of those since early 2007 :)
  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Russell Brazil no problem, please call me out any time I mention anything remotely unethical! It felt weird failing to reach the agent and then having to research to find the seller. Working on a duplex deal for another investor and I'm thrilled there's a responsive agent! Tenant occupied and no showings until offer? no problem, I can actually reach her to ask questions and make an offer! woohoo! haha.
  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    I guess my question really is, have any of you successfully pursued a listing after being withdrawn unconditionally? I almost dropped it at that point but pursued it on the chance of it working out. I doubt it was withdrawn due to my offer, likely something in the works before my first attempt to reach out. At this point I wonder if the listing agent was a reasonable guy trying to drop a difficult to work with seller trying to undercut him, he of course wouldn't disclose that to me. L.A. closed 3 of 8 properties the week before and the withdraw could have been a "good riddance" to nightmare seller, who knows. Hoping the next offer I submit is a more traditional offer-counteroffer situation!
  • Real Estate Agent · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 135 posts · 67 votes
    8y

    @Russell Holmes, every deal is different and with each one you learn more and more so don't bet yourself up.  

    Heres what I would suggest for the future.

    I normally only give a seller 24 hours to respond to an offer and in some instances have given less.  Hold firm on timeframes as this helps your client. Of course, sometimes there are valid reasons for a longer timeframe, such as seller or listing agent out of town, sick, etc. But shorter is normally better.

    If a listing agent withdraws and a seller tells you the five properties are under contract thats a huge red flag.  

    If listing agent and broker are not trying to get the deal done for a seller there's a huge issue.  In many cases, if you ask the agents they are going to tell you whats going on.

    Sounds like the seller believed he knew more than the other agent.  Believe me when I say that 99% of sellers who do this to one agent will do it to you and they will tell everyone they know that your horrible.  If they change agents within a few months, then there is an issue.  Listing contracts are the brokers so if it's an agent issue then the broker can assign a new agent in their firm. The broker can chose to terminate the contract or the seller can but even in this case many will still require payment if the home is sold during the timeframe the listing agreement outlines. 

    Did you have a contract with the seller or did you put something in the contract stating seller would pay your commission? Just wanted to point out because if not make sure to put in the contract for the future.

    It is also not uncommon for investors to waive inspections.  I have closed deals in as little as three days.  Many investors are willing to close fast if it includes this kind of return, as long as they have clear title.  Waiving inspections can be a huge negotiation factor so I wouldn't suggest dismissing that idea for future contracts.  

    Overall it sounds like you and your client dodge a bullet here.  Best of luck with future contracts. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y

    @Maria McCreless wow, thank you for that phenomenal reply!  I think each paragraph has some actionable advice for me, I really appreciate that!  

    I like the 24 hours on offers.  My first thought was to give it a week to which my mentor said "That's WAY too long, maybe until Monday".  I switched to Tuesday when my Friday offer didn't go in until later, but I think that extra time just delayed the inevitable, next time I'll go with a much shorter period!  Do you add an extra day or two if the period involves the weekend or do you just do a straight 24 hours regardless?  

    You're right that I should have seen the red flag when all five were 'under contract' as soon as I could reach the withdrawn seller.  I think the excitement over the numbers blinded me to the fact that it was a seller-made game.  Instead I was thinking I was competing with a BP style investor who was also trying to reach him and did so quicker, tying them up before I could.  I'm pretty sure your assessment of the situation is more likely the truth! Haha.

    I do believe at this point that the seller was the issue here, not the listing brokerage.  I don't know anything about the listing agent, but the listing broker is a long time local broker, second generation at the ReMax office his Dad started, and was very professional and rapid in his handling of it.  I wasn't impressed with the listing agent's lack of response, but it is water under the bridge.  If I had 8 sub-100k listings and was having to fight with my seller on every one to get them closed without him messing them up, I may start ignoring people too...haha.  If I come accross a listing of this agent again, I'm going to go at it like I've never met him before....with a 'normal' seller he is probably a perfectly decent agent.

    I didn't have an executed contract with the seller.  I had submitted a purchase offer to him that included all of the inspection and appraisal clauses my client requested as well as stipulation that seller would pay me $2500 buyers agent commission (I wasn't after listing these!).  So had the seller signed the offer, I'd have some recourse if he tried not to pay my commission, but all verbal at this point, easier to walk away when it got shady.

    I also like to hear that some investors do waive inspections.  This client I was offering for was not comfortable with that, but he was going to try and have his inspector, contractor, and himself all see the property on the first showing to speed things up and be ready to have funds in the sellers account in less than two weeks. I know some properties close quicker than that, but this one had been on the market with one agent from 8/17 through early 18 and then this last agent from then until withdrawing.  If the quick to close cash guys thought it was worth it and seller was honest, it would have been bought before I even got my license in February! Haha.

      I have read on BP about buying without inspections and can see where it would have its place, but I'm at the mercy of my client's risk tolerance until it is my money on the line.  However, if they are on the fence deciding, I will be able to clue them in that some investors do decide to skip inspections at their own risk if the deal looks good enough.

    I definitely think there was a bullet dodged here somehow somewhere.  Not sure exactly what was being hidden, but it was obviously something.

    I'm not beating myself up over it too bad and really felt like if it closed as planned it would have been beginners luck taking down a killer deal in under 90 days since licensed. So no biggie, I'm hunting for other deals with a few clients and will be better prepared for the next.  I really appreciate the pro set of eyes on my situation.  I wanted to learn as much from it as possible!

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    8y

    Find a way to work on larger deals, more readily available properties, and clients willing to take less yield.

    At the bottom of the food chain for price needed to purchase you tend to have wholesalers, then flippers to rehab and resale, then investors holding to rent and cash flow.

    Regular home buyers and sellers tend to trade at higher price points and more inventory on the market.

    After awhile then you work up into larger deals. Example my friends in residential are selling 500k,750k and up type properties.

    I did the same thing in commercial real estate. I work on larger deals now. The smaller deals that would take up all of my time I pass on. That is basically anything under 1 million now in price and most of the time under 2 million.

    For commercial anything sub 2 million is very hard to find good loan terms as the properties are generally in weak suburban to rural markets and local lenders give crappy loan terms. They tend to be the only game in town.

    Conversely properties 3,4,5 million and up are in stronger suburban to to urban core markets where many different types of lenders compete against each other to loan on higher quality assets and better located properties. 

    Learn to say NO to business that is not optimal for you and it will set you free. Stress will tend to reduce, income goes up, more efficient with time,etc.

    There are apps that log time on desktop and your phone.  Start using to get a return on your time per deal.

    Remember the saying "If you stand for nothing then you can fall for anything."   You need to brainstorm your IDEAL CLIENT in your mind and what attributes they should have. Then you should list all the ways you are going to track down and find these types of clients to work with. Stay laser focused and only focus on your ideal client. The other clients will take 80% of your time but lead to maybe only 10 to 20% of revenue.     

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y
    @Joel Owens thank you, your reply also was packed with actionable advice, I appreciate that! I really have a good feel for the residential market around me that ranges from about $200-400k homes. Local median priced home is $238k and the population is growing rapidly, far more people moving into my area than out. Those traditional homeowner purchases are where I'm putting in my marketing efforts currently with SEO, reaching out to my sphere of influence, door hangers, talking with neighbors and anyone I'm in front of, etc. I also have a personal interest in beginning investing myself (aiming for later this year) in either small sf or mf around my area. Down the road the asset class may change as I build up some equity/capital, but I'll likely get my start in the lower priced B-/C type properties. The sales commissions are smaller, but rents on the smaller deals seem to more often exceed 1% in C+ and B areas so I understand why investors are looking to buy there. This deal specifically would have only been a $72k purchase but then it would have ended up being a $160-165k listing for me in a few months, so that came into play as well. Houses over $200k very rarely come close to 1% (and I haven't yet gotten into depth analyzing anything larger than 4unit). The efforts put in are half for the commission and half for the self-education so that I've analyzed and followed through on some deals for others before I'm able to dive into some myself. I'm personally more interested in buy and hold as opposed to flips, but so far my investor clients are about 50/50 buy and hold vs flippers. So while I'm not specifically marketing for investor buyers of smaller properties and would love to work with those looking for larger properties, working with the ones who find me that also have reasonable expectations are ok with me for now... especially until my marketing has filled more of my time with larger purchase transactions. I've been pretty good about doing most analysis and communication by email up until a property seems viable enough to walk, but hadn't thought of tracking my computer time to hyper analyze hours spent....probably have burned quite a few figuring out the methods of data collection and analysis. My clients have goals that may not be 100% attainable, but they know that and will look at things I send them that are close to their goals. I definitely have no problem turning down clients who are either unreasonable or otherwise not worth the effort. I learned that skill in my previous/current service business. Everyone who wants to pay half and get double can move right along...haha That being said, it's going to be the larger deals that give me enough commission to build seed capital for my own investments and ultimately free me from running my exhausting (but profitable) service business. Commercial real estate intrigues me, but I feel like I've got to get good at residential before considering it. Did you sell residential before moving into commercial? I really appreciate everyone on BP helping a newbie out. I'm still working to define my niche, but I don't think it'll be 100% investors or 0%, rather somewhere in the middle with lots of owner occupied larger transactions in the mix. I'm also looking to build a hybrid commission/investment income over the years rather than a massive team of agents to close 9492818593 deals per month. I look forward to being full time Real Estate, but I want to be working on investment projects along the way, not just managing a massive sales force. I love that there are so many ways to carve out a niche,and working on defining mine!
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    8y

    15 years in the business. I did residential for about the first year and knew it wasn't for me.

    Commercial I just enjoy much better. There is a lot more to learn. On a  commercial transaction for a retail center you could review 1,000 pages of material. For lead time to closing could be 6 months to 1 year sometimes as buyers do careful planning when investing millions of dollars down on a purchase.

    The upside is when you do close some you can have years worth of income while working on the next deal.

    Example if I make 100k commission on 10 deals that is 1 million pre-tax. If you are selling 100k houses and were the broker keeping it all at 3,000 a pop you would need to sell about 334 houses in a year or close to 1 a day. To close 300 plus properties would take enormous staff and help and would severely eat into commission return before taxes.

    I am more about earning large pops of income thereby giving me more time to enjoy life. It only goes by once and nobody regrets not working enough. They tend to regret working too much and missing the magical experiences that life has to offer. Right now you are new so trying almost anything. As the years go by you should get a clearer vision of what business you want. 

  • Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 330 votes
    8y
    “I'm not beating myself up over it too bad and really felt like if it closed as planned it would have been beginners luck taking down a killer deal in under 90 days since licensed. So no biggie, I'm hunting for other deals with a few clients and will be better prepared for the next.  I really appreciate the pro set of eyes on my situation.  I wanted to learn as much from it as possible!” Hey Russell Holmes Love the fire you got going! I think everyone covered what could’ve been said but I wanted to correct you on your statement regarding beginners luck to emphasize that it was far from that. You eat what you kill in this industry and I’ve met many starving agents who never get off their butt and for that reason never experienced the “luck” you had so early. Don’t discredit yourself and identify the actions that make your clients happy, thus making you a more successful agent. Best of luck man!
  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y

    @Joel Owens that makes a lot of sense and I will keep that in the back of my mind as I navigate residential at first.

    I currently run a mobile auto detailing company with my wife that I started back in 07.  I hustled hard to get it launched, I was 21 and sick of job hunting after one promising job falling through after quitting the previous.  Every hour I could work for myself I made $40-75.  In the beginning there was a bunch of hustling and 10-15 hours a week of paid work. Still more than I made before as a full time bank teller and loved the flexibility and control. 

    I built an SEO optimized website, hounded my sphere of influence, knocked on doors, left flyers in car and house doors, even parked my branded trailer in nearby shopping centers and walked home for an hour or so to work on my website.  That early growth was fun and I learned a lot.  Now my wife and I each run a truck and each have 35-45 hours per week of paid work, 10+ hours of unpaid driving, and turn away new customers constantly. The numbers don't work on growing larger than we are. There's no hustle needed anymore, no marketing needed, and just a bunch of physical work and way too many customer inquiries (a weird thing for an entrepreneur to say, I had a mini third-life crisis coming to terms with admitting that at first) .  It pays well, but I built myself a nice job instead of the scalable business I thought it was. (Did I mention I was 21 when I made this genius plan? haha)

    Moving from what I currently do into being a full time residential real estate agent is almost analogous with moving from residential to commercial down the road.  Right now I nurture customer relationships to do constant $50-300 "deals". Some customers I make a few thousand dollars per year from, but I'm at their house every week for that money. It all adds up to a decent income each year, but its a lot of 'busywork'.  I can't wait until I'm working full time on real estate deals that take a few months to lead up to earning each commission of a couple thousand instead of a few hours for a few hundred.  I can definitely see where down the road, once I've fully transitioned to residential real estate and have again filled my schedule, looking to commercial real estate brokerage as the next logical transition would be favorable.  Since its within the same larger industry, I could likely start to learn the field and educate myself without having to wait until I had too much residential business to handle...

      I see that you are a broker, are there commercial sales agents, or do most get their broker's license along the way? I plan to get my Broker's license as soon as my two years as an agent is up, even if just to hang at my current brokerage....just something to have in my back pocket for more options.  I like eXp for what I'm currently doing, but if I go down the investment-only or commercial rabbit hole, I'd likely also need to consider a brokerage switch or becoming an independent broker.   I assume CCIM would be a must?  

    I can definitely see how a steady commercial real estate flow would be much more controllable and less time intensive than the same income in residential.  Sorry for a million questions, but I really appreciate the insight!  

    @Gabriel Amedee thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate you calling me out on the beginners luck misstatement as we all know those who work the hardest/smartest have the best 'luck'.   Since I'm starting my real estate career while still running a business, I fully expect it to take me some time before getting a good consistent deal flow. My first few commissions will earn me the ability to cut a full day out of my week to devote to RE which will compound into me earning more time for RE.  I know for a fact if I had full time availability I could get going more quickly, but I also know that I've got a life to pay for and it is a blessing to have a business I own that I can step away from gradually.  If it was a job I would have already been fired, my mind's not in it anymore, haha.

      I'm keeping the quality up and customers happy, but I'm ready to throw in the towel and not have to fit RE in around other work.  Interestingly, it wasn't until I decided I was ready to transition away from my current business that I popped up for air long enough to realize we had built one of the largest, most branded and visible, and highest grossing detailing businesses in the area. Until then I was just chasing growth and ignoring the competition.  I didn't realize I had passed them years ago.   I plan to stop and smell the roses a bit more along the way with RE, I don't want to build myself into another 50+ hr/week job.  

    Thank you all again for all of this input.  BP blows me away more an more every day.  No wonder they hit 1,000,000 members.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 135 posts · 67 votes
    8y

    @Russell Holmes, Mostly 24 hours straight across the board for me.   Feel free to reach out if you ever need anything.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    8y

    @Maria McCreless Thank you!

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