CA Handyman (not Contractor) has started asking for $500 in Labor per job

CA Handyman (not Contractor) has started asking for $500 in Labor per job

Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes

Am a NY licensed contractor who moved out here to LA county barely a year ago.. my CA contractor license is still pending. So in the mean time, I been keeping busy with working on my own properties and a few small landscape and PM accounts. 

My handyman's son (in his early 30s) who had so far been reasonable for helping me with projects on my own home for the past several months, recently shared that fact that his father isn't getting any new jobs and so I gave him  (son, not father) a bunch of projects he can help out with, mostly outdoors/landscaping and exterior.

I never pay per hour, as that would materialize an employee-employer relationship. He works on his own time and schedule, with little supervision except time and time again I happen to be there to make sure he doesn't fall or get hurt, as well as just to help the project get done faster and move onto the next.

Sadly though, it seems since business has been so slow with his father (he metioned his father hasn't paid him for the little jobs they do (for other clients, not me) together these days). Yesterday he stated that he does not believe my budget for little projects around the house is 'fair' (even though it approaches near $2,000/mo for labor alone!) and printed up a list of projects that I want to get started on, and listed a labor fee for each. I think the list added up to like $5,000 in labor for projects that would get done in less than a month working just a few hours each day of the week.

For example, he listed painting the house exterior (stucco), and put $500 in labor next to it. 

He and I have discussed on several occasions that fact that current CSLB wording  that limits handymen $500 per project is the maximum for both materials AND labor per project and that that would be the basis for fairness sake especially since I give him the project but still end up helping alot anyways.   We've also discussed the fact that these are all optional, cosmetic things that if don't fit in the budget, simply won't be done or will be done at a later date on my own when I get around to it.

(He's also known for some time why I longer give his father new projects: because his father -also handyman, not a contractor - kept quoting thousands of dollars per project despite knowing the CSLB rules that govern handymen and their work in the state.)

How would you deal with this if you were in my shoes? (My gut instinct is just to do all other work which is just cosmetic and non-structural anyway, and all exterior, as I am accustomed to: on my own from here on out till I get my CSLB license and can then get insured and pay helpers by the hour and so on).

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Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
11y

This guy has got to go.  You're the one who pays, so you're the one who decides how much to pay.

I've had similar issues in the past with the people who do work for me.  Because of things like this, I now tell them upfront what the job will pay.  

For example, if I need a tub surround replaced, they get paid $125 (I supply all materials, so it's strictly labor).  They get half when they start, and if they haven't finished the work in two days, I'll never ask them to do anything for me again.  Every single time you let a day laborer set their hourly rate, you can be damned sure it'll take them all day.  In this particular case, the guy was upset I wasn't going to pay him more ... I just told him it was a great opportunity for him to get paid $60 an hour.

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  • Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
    11y

    Find a new handyman. This guy is getting greedy. Move on. He'll get the picture when he has no work left and no money. 

    Is there a shortage of good help in that area?

    Good luck @Account Closed

  • Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
    11y

    This guy has got to go.  You're the one who pays, so you're the one who decides how much to pay.

    I've had similar issues in the past with the people who do work for me.  Because of things like this, I now tell them upfront what the job will pay.  

    For example, if I need a tub surround replaced, they get paid $125 (I supply all materials, so it's strictly labor).  They get half when they start, and if they haven't finished the work in two days, I'll never ask them to do anything for me again.  Every single time you let a day laborer set their hourly rate, you can be damned sure it'll take them all day.  In this particular case, the guy was upset I wasn't going to pay him more ... I just told him it was a great opportunity for him to get paid $60 an hour.

  • Contractor · Peabody , MA · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    Just find another one. Talking about insurance, even you pay them by job you still liable if something happen because you the one bring him to the job, so if you like to hire someone make sure he has liability insurance at least.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    11y

    Not sure about the other items he's charging you for.   But painting the exterior of a house for $500 is very reasonable, at least around here for any person of reasonable skill to paint a house.   Now that isn't with me helping him, if I'm helping it's less.   I'm sure you know there is a lot of work involved, taping everything, caulking, etc....    Especially for a person working by themselves that does a decent job.   It's several days work depending on the size of the house and if you want it too look good.   Any jackass can get out there with a spray gun and spray everything in sight, but I'm assuming you want it done neatly and your house to look good. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Urbandale, IA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    If you think you can have a rational discussion with him, maybe you should explain you're thinking to him. It may be uncomfortable, but I usually find its worth my effort. As long as you don't let the discussion escalate, you're likely to benefit from it, no matter the course it takes.

  • Edmond, OK · Member since 2012 · 456 posts · 270 votes
    11y
    can you take the emotions out of the relationship?
  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y

    Well said, guys!

    Taking the emotions out of the working relationship -  that is, my 'sympathy'for  his dad being greedy and thus losing jobs left and right because his dad insists on masquerading as a contractor despite being just a handyman limited to CA CSLB statutes that strictly limit all handymen in the state from being compensated more than what's left of $500 after materials - I realize I have reiterated with son on several occasions that CSLB limits handymen to $500 per project as the maximum for both materials AND labor per project IS the basis for fairness.

    I realize being told that the above (current CSLB limits )isn't 'fair' is a huge slap n the face after having given formerly father, and now currently and ongoingly the son for the past 11 months and change, steady work.

    Perhaps it's a sign of the times where even handymen and jobbers would rather sit around making no money than taking what they feel is 'less' pay than they could be making 'if they were' a contractor? LOL

    Heck, I hear from investor and flipper colleagues that even these day laborers at Signal Home Depot expect $150/day or will just refuse the job and sit around at home depot all day then go home empty handed. Day laborers arent even an option for me cuz no way would I put someone to work on my property that I just met hours ago and hope they don't fall or later claim they got hurt and surprise me with a lawsuit. But yea it really goes to show the current expectations of laborers and apparently some handymen despite the economy where less pay is better than no pay and despite CA CSLB being very firm about its $500/project being a maximum for materials + labor.

    So yea I've resolved to conclude 'you're just not getting it, son!' and alot him the rest of this month to finish up the projects he already started. Suffice it to say, I won't be giving him any new projects as will make time to do them on my own. I've crossed out all the new projects on the list as well as written 'CSLB $500 labor/materials limit' next to each project he wanted to start that's over that amount- despite our multiple conversations regarding just that.

    An interesting rather recent article:

    http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Media_Room/Press_Releases/2...

    "Posing as homeowners, investigators called potential suspects to solicit bids on interior painting, flooring, concrete, and fencing. Bids ranged from $912 (labor only) to $2,800 – well in excess of the $500 legal limit. A CSLB-issued license is required for all construction-related work that costs $500 or more in combined labor and materials.

    Thirteen of the 18 suspects were cited for contracting without a license (Business and Professions Code section 7028). Two of the 18 did not give bids, but indicated to investigators that they would; if those bids are submitted, the individuals will face misdemeanor charges of contracting without a license. Three of the 12 did not provide a bid and will be charged criminally at a later date. "

    ^WOW, CA HANDYMEN CHARGED CRIMINALLY 'just' for quoting anything over the $500/labor+materials project legal limit! Once he's done with his projects, I'll text him the link to this article and send him on his way to apparently 'greener' pastures.

  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brian Mathews:

    Not sure about the other items he's charging you for.   But painting the exterior of a house for $500 is very reasonable, at least around here for any person of reasonable skill to paint a house.   Now that isn't with me helping him, if I'm helping it's less.   I'm sure you know there is a lot of work involved, taping everything, caulking, etc....    Especially for a person working by themselves that does a decent job.   It's several days work depending on the size of the house and if you want it too look good.   Any jackass can get out there with a spray gun and spray everything in sight, but I'm assuming you want it done neatly and your house to look good. 

     I totally agree and had he listed 'prepping caulking and taping house exterior' as a separate 'project' and 'painting house exterior' each with its own separate respective labor quote, I would then consider.

    However since he and I have discussed the CSLB limit time and time again, yet he still had the nerve to just simply list (on a spreadsheet) $500 labor for painting the house alone, and handed me the sheet with a statement that my compensation is not 'fair', the long and short of it is this person who I consider a friend, isn't any longer a viable handyman for law is law, business is business, and fair is fair.

    Note: had he quoted something like $400 or something for painting house, I would be glad to negotiate with him (ie, maybe he was under the misunderstanding that $100 would be enough for paint) but he didnt. Instead, smacking the CSLB limit for both labor+materials as the charge for just labor is just like I said, a slap in the face cause we've discussed CSLB limits time and time again. (And no, he isn't supplying his own paint, I already ran that by him just to make sure that wasn't his methodology).

    By the way, he mentioned the "new" CSLB  limit is $600/materials+labor but when asked for a reference to that, did not furnish anything and I can't find any info online as to that.

  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    11y

    I can't imagine painting a house for $500... even in Ga, where the cost of living is considerably lower than in Ca. (Unless we're talking about maybe a dog house)

    It sounds to me like you and your handyman have way different goals. Why make a big deal out of it? Go find a licensed, insured, responsible contractor to do this for you instead. 

    Alternatively, go find a handyman who is gagging for work and willing to take $500 to paint a house. Be aware, you're going to burn through handymen pretty fast. Even the dullest witted person is going to eventually figure out that they are probably paying to go to work on that kind of wage rate... or at least, making less than they would by flipping burgers.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

    Hi Neil. 

    I assisted Signal Hill PD on a massive shootout in that Home Depot Parking Lot during the late 1990's. LOL.

    Learn to speak Spanish. Now. You are in the epicenter of the Hispanic Hub of the United States. 

    A highly skilled Guatemalan (my preference) or Mexican laborer will cost you $150 per day.  This guy is also capable of managing a lower skilled helper who will cost you $125 per day. These two guys can get a LOT of work done in one day. 

    Neither of these guys will come from that Home Depot parking lot. You will find them by becoming friends with Spanish Speaking people as you assimilate into the Hispanic culture. 

    I would go introduce myself to the pastor at several Hispanic Evangelical Churches. They are all over the place in North Long Beach, Central Long Beach, Paramount and Compton. Tell him about yourself and what you are looking for. These are good people. Very good people. 

    good luck.

    DL

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    The CILB $500 max per "job" has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what a fair labor rate for a job is.  You use that rule as an illogical reason for why a quote is not a fair price?  Sounds like you think handymen should do Every job, no matter what, for $500.?

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed, I understand the law is the law, but the law is made to force folks doing much more than raking a yard or replacing a loose step to become a contractor who has insurance etc.  As to painting a house for $500, I have done that, it was about 30 years ago.  I would love to get a guy reasonably competent to do labor on a paint job for a house for $500.  I currently pay $15 per hour for contract labor for simple things like stripping a roof, cleaning up junk, mowing, etc.  I am down to one worker.  It is hard to get even semi skilled workers at reasonable rates, and any type of contractor starts at $35 per hour and many are at $50 per hour or more.  Maybe the oil field slowdown will change prices or available labor, but not until the unemployment benefits run out in a year or 2.  So far I have not been able to entice any laid off oil field hands to work for $15 per hour.

  • Specialist · Novato, CA · Member since 2012 · 190 posts · 57 votes
    11y

    What are trying to accomplish here? We're investors who work deals. 

    Were marketing people who talk on the phone and move paper. 

    What your talking about is entirely different.  

    You aren't saving or making money. 

    If you want to give that up. Work on your negociating skills. Way more profitable without the brush. 

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed You do realize that material and labor is for $500 right? painting a house with labor only and you supply material exceeds this. Second point is, in CA, there is no such thing as handyman, it is either you are licensed or you are not. I will be blunt, what you are doing is illegal, what the son and the father is doing is illegal also, they are unlicensed contractors. Even if you pay $300 labor and 150 materials each time, but the work is continuous, it can still be considered as series contracts (one contract after another within a period apart, even if you do 1-3 day a week/month, as long as it has a pattern, it could be considered as such), remember that CSLB and CA are pro workers (particularly with workers compensation), you don't want to mess with them just like you don't want to mess with IRS. One avenue while you are waiting for that license is, getting a workman's comp (you could revise the principal's name later if you wish), and hiring him as piecework job, this would fall under Owner-Builder, this is only legal if 1. You have active work comp insurance under your name or LLC, 2. You establish a employee-employer piece work job or per hour, 3. 1099 does not work, Yup! it doesn't work, you can 1099 him if he has a license and WC to start working above $500, 4. You pay employers tax, wc rates, and deduct employee tax, etc. Hope that helps.

    If you do not hire that much, and for you to avoid WC, add him as a shareholder with 1% share of the company, have him sign something that he could not do anything with the share (legal paper needed on this), give him a position something like "General Foreman". Do not overdo it with like 5 workers, SOS, CSLB and DIR will go after you.

    I am totally in your shoes when somebody says something about my rates, if someone tells me that my price is too low, I move and FORGET. I mean, it is my money, what gives them the right to get more. If they go away, 5 will replace them, one call to two guys saying I need a plumber with 5 years experience, 5 will call me within an hour.

    Change your guy, just like everybody said, show him who is boss. You are an investor, not a philanthropist.

  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y

    This afternoon while cooking out back, Mexican neighbor agreed to help out with the house painting and other yard projects - for virtually free on weekends starting tomorrow - in exchange for a few beers and my awesome lunch/dinners off the grilly! 

    My handman and his son aren't latino and regretfully I've never employed a person of hispanic descent.. yet.  I'm not hispanic but neither am I 'black' nor 'white'. I don't believe in profiling people via race/ethnicity, but rather, their CREDENTIALS and their individual performance. In business, references and jobs done also help too.

    Handymen per CSLB are prohibited from taking on projects that are more than $500, unless they can either break the project down into smaller job or risk going to jail -especially if they furnished something recordable (ie, a phone conversation or in writing) in violation of this fundamental CA rule governing construction.

    So yes I do agree CA handymen should never quote a client anything more than $500/materials+labor per particular job unless they don't care about building a career towards being a licensed contractor honestly and dont care if they end up being criminally charged for it.

    As for a family member and/or close friend I would expect handymen in CA to obviously work out 'less than armlength' ways to help them with big jobs that do exceeed $500/project but not leave an obviously incriminating papertrail afterall its family you're dealing with anyway and nevertheless as a handyman (and likely brother, cousin, in-law etc) until one day you are a licensed contractor then can quote as much as you want per project.

    I'm tired and done with CA handymen masquerading as contractors, quoting contractor prices, yet not having even liability insurance that licensed contractors are required to have. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2010 · 804 posts · 230 votes
    11y

    @Account ClosedTruly you are new to the greater LA market.  There is no way that you can get a house painted for $500.  This is an appreciating market and what you are trying to do is unbelievable.  You should talk to some of your neighbors or go to some of the rei groups here and ask them about getting a house painted even just for labor for $500 and they will tell you have found a fool, a super desperate worker, or someone totally new to the area and has no idea of the going rate.  This reminds of a History Channel series,  "The Men Who Built America".  I do wish you the best of luck in all your endeavors.  Once you know this area  better, I am sure you will see that what you proposing will not work here.  Speeding is against law, but many  do it anyway.  Just because it is the law don't mean workers will fall in place.    

  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by :

    Second point is, in CA, there is no such thing as handyman, it is either you are licensed or you are not. I will be blunt, what you are doing is illegal, what the son and the father is doing is illegal also, they are unlicensed contractors. Even if you pay $300 labor and 150 materials each time, but the work is continuous, it can still be considered as series contracts (one contract after another within a period apart, even if you do 1-3 day a week/month, as long as it has a pattern, it could be considered as such).

    Thanks Manolo for all the advice, esp regarding WC. =D

    I get what you're saying except you've avoided the fact that in the OP I pretty much explained I tell my 'unlicensed contractor' what nexyt small project needs to be done and he comes back to me with a quote and if I can afford it, it sounds reasonable, and if and only if it is below $500 in labor+materials, I say yea get it done.

    My question is, why does CSLB allow unlicensed contractors to charge up to $500 material/labor, if even charging $1 is like you say, 'illegal'? Are you saying I can only use 1 handyman/independent contractor ONLY once? That I should never use the same handyman/independent contractor more than once lest I establish a 'continuous' 'pattern'?!

    I also specified  this is is all cosmetic, exterior work.  Paint the stucco. Fill the cracks in my driveway. Your reply is what I'm doing is illegal. Seriously? Today I paid my neighbor's 19 year old son $20 to reseed my lawn. Is this also illegal? Are you going to tell me that painting a house is continuous? That reseeding a lawn is continuous? I mean seriously how often does one get their house painted, continuously? Get their lawn reseeded.. continuously? Sure sounds like that is what you are saying.

    Hey so my neighbor's son offered to weed the lawn for another $20.. will that establish a 'pattern' and will it make it illegal, or was it already illegal when I gave my neighbor's son $20 to reseed my lawn? 

     What's worse than a beauracratic government? A litigious people! =/

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 345 posts · 281 votes
    11y

    if you are the guy hiring labor under the table or off books, why are you concerned about  cslb rules?  Negotiate a fair price and be done.  you may find it difficult to find a better value alternative.  He has no incentive to turn you in to the CSLB  and you have no incentive to do it to him.  But getting worked up over the $500 limit is ridiculous.  People pay cash for jobs all the time.  if you know enough to check his work, then rela  x  .Or hire a real contractor.

  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y

    Actually I am questioning just that: Why does CSLB 'allow' unlicensed contractors to do a construction job (in my case, painting the exterior, repairing cracks in driveway, etc) priced less than $500 in labor and materials?

    It implies I - the homeowner - am allowed to pay that much, per project. Does it not? Who said under the table or off the books? In the case of unlicensed contractor, the word 'handyman' is common in the scope of home improvement independent contractors, licensed or not.

    I'm not even in a trade or business yet still do issue a 1099-MISC to handymen, and even my tax-preparer just in case the IRS or some other beauracracy should deem me as being in a 'trade or business' already. 

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 9 votes
    11y

    Having rentals in both CA and NV, I feel $500 for painting the entire exterior is reasonable. Even in Las Vegas where labor is much cheaper than Cali  I pay more in labor for painting a whole house.  After 22 years of investing in Cali I recently moved out and started 1031 exchanges in Georgia almost doubling my net cash flow.  California laws are so tenant friendly and heavily regulated I decided to pull out.  Of course, properties don't appreciate as rapidly in GA as they do in the West, but my goal was more for monthly income while tenants pay the properties off.  I've been lucky my props have not been vacant for more than two weeks.

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    $500 dollars is a crazy low price for painting a house, and I suspect you know it. It honestly seems like you are really fixated on the regulatory limit for some reason. Maybe to make a bigger deal out of being a contractor as opposed to a handyman than reality justifies? The difference amounts to little more than insurance and a bond.

  • SFR Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2009 · 184 posts · 55 votes
    11y

    I'm sure you were aware of temporary labor services, but you should seriously consider them to keep everything legal and lawsuit free:

    http://www.laborready.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/labor-ready-fact-sheet-2014.pdf?sfvrsn=0

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

    : )  

    Handymen are probably "not overly concerned" about being locked up for operating as unlicensed contractors.

    As of November, 2014, possession of meth, cocaine and or heroin is a misdemeanor in California. LOL!  They simply issue you a ticket and if you don't show up for court, the ticket becomes a warrant. If you have a warrant and the police stop you, they will give you another ticket for the warrant. rinse. repeat. In Riverside County, the Sheriff will reject a prisoner even if he has fourteen (14) misdemeanor warrants. Not until the 15th active misdemeanor warrant will he be booked. 

    There is no jail or prison space in California. 

    If by some miracle a handyman gets cited for this, he is not going to get arrested. He will get a ticket and a court date. 

    And if he does by some stroke of unbelievably bad luck he does get cited for contracting with no license, if he is smart he will simply tell the district attorney to stick it up his butt. Seeking a criminal conviction against a man who is "just trying to feed his family" has ZERO jury appeal and you will NEVER get a conviction for that in Los Angeles County. Particularly if the handyman is a person of color. No jury will convict on that and no assistant DA will bother to go forward with it. That is reality in SoCal. 

    The ONLY exception would be if, due to substandard work done by a handyman, a child was injured or an adult was severely injured. Then and only then, MAYBE will the DA file. And if ANY victim or witness hesitates whatsoever, forget it. That case will instantly become a DA Reject. 

    Heck, in just skimming through the CA B&P code, even removing ASBESTOS without a certification is only a misdemeanor!!!!   LOL !!!!!

    DL

  • Homeowner · Signal Hill, CA · Member since 2015 · 521 posts · 70 votes
    11y

    An interesting rather recent article:

    http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Media_Room/Press_Releases/2...

    "Posing as homeowners, investigators called potential suspects to solicit bids on interior painting, flooring, concrete, and fencing. Bids ranged from $912 (labor only) to $2,800 – well in excess of the $500 legal limit. A CSLB-issued license is required for all construction-related work that costs $500 or more in combined labor and materials.

    Thirteen of the 18 suspects were cited for contracting without a license (Business and Professions Code section 7028). Two of the 18 did not give bids, but indicated to investigators that they would; if those bids are submitted, the individuals will face misdemeanor charges of contracting without a license. Three of the 12 did not provide a bid and will be charged criminally at a later date. "

    I would be  deeply saddened if my handyman were to join the ranks of the above guys.. and handymen being 'caught' and prosecuted from time to time in Cali thanks to the CSLB 'below $500 rule' is likely anything BUT a miracle; if anything, an everyday occurance. While prison space may be extremely limited, doesn't a day go by that my housemate who is a poster (posts bail after bonds are secured) isn't totally swamped by the plethora of clients waiting in line to bailed outta jail 24/7 just in Signal Hill & Long Beach cities alone.

    I do doubt that most of those in jail are there because they violated CSLB

    As for $500 to paint a house of course it's reasonable but CSLB would have you hire a LICENSED  CONTRACTOR and pay EXPONENTIALLY more. Not only that, but in my case, where I am a builder-owner until my license is approved, its ridiculous dealing with 'hiring' anyone to 'help' in this state so I've resolved with my trustworthy neighbor to paint it together and all i owe him is some beer and food.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    11y

    The only thing I've learned in this ongoing thread is that California is a screwed up state that has nothing better to do than crap regulations out their butt.    I can see having to be licensed to do electrical, plumbing, hvac, structure related work.   But to bust somebody's rear for painting  a house or planting trees in a lawn is just plain ridiculous because it's over $500.   Thank goodness I'm in Texas where we don't have all that nonsense.   We have licenses and regulation, but only for the items mentioned above, but nothing for handyman type work with a dollar amount.  

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