Contractor Only Replace Half of Roof - Options?

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Contractor Only Replace Half of Roof - Options?

Tim Porsche
Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes

Hi All,

I have a bit of a situation here and would greatly appreciate any advice on how to proceed. I purchased a rental property back in Spring of this year and decided to replace the roof on it because it's quite obvious it has reached the end of its useful life. The roof can be divided into four main sections.

1. The main section of the roof. This is about a 600 Sq. ft area and is a flat roof.

2. The front porch roof. Relatively small section that is rubber.

3. Back area of house roof. This is about a 150 sq. ft area that covers the back of the house where the kitchen is. Also a rubber roof.

4. Back porch roof. Very small section that covers the back porch. Maybe 50 sq. ft.

The contractor replaced the main section, but nothing else, and is claiming that is all he bid on. He also charged me extra to remove two extra layers of roofing underneath. Now, when I originally contacted the roofing contractor to get a quote to replace the roof back in June, I never differentiated between any of these sections. When I told him I wanted "the roof" to be replaced I assumed he realized I meant the WHOLE roof, not just the main section. I had never thought a contractor would replace only certain sections of the roof when you tell them you want "the roof" replaced. Looking back this was a mistake on my part, and in the future I'll make sure to have as much detail as possible listed in the contract about EXACTLY what is included in the price and what is not. 

The only written proof I have that I wanted all sections replaced is an email where I stated the following to the contractor's assistant, and also the contractor himself who was copied on the email:

"Hi Name,

Thanks for the quote, I appreciate it! A couple of quick questions for you on the roofing product used though. Will .060 TPO be used on both the flat portion of the roof and the slanted portion and porch roofs, or just the flat section of the roof? Also what is the average life expectancy of .060 TPO roofing for flat roofs? I'm not familiar with the product so I have no idea.

Thanks!"

The contract itself states the following:

"Specifications: Proposed Cost

Roof

Remove & dispose of the existing roof, if additional layers are found they will be removed at $50.00/sq.

Inspect current roof deck, if replacement is needed it will be completed at $1.65/s.f.

Install 1⁄2” fiber board to the entire roof deck using screws and plates

Install .060 TPO to the roof with all needed flashings and trims

Install perimeter metal with all needed flashings

Proposed Cost: $3,300"

I guess my question is, what options do I have at this point? Do I just suck it up, pay, and then get someone else to finish the other sections of the roof? I know I made a mistaken not specifying exactly what needed done in more detail...but honestly, when you say you want the roof of a house replaced, wouldn't most people assume you mean the whole roof and not half of it? 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
9y

It doesnt matter what other contractors quote , it has no bearing on the job .  The ONLY thing that matters is whats written in the contract .  Does your state have a home improvement commission? If so contact them . Dont waste another contractors time having them come out to look at a new roof . 

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    I would have assumed you meant the entire roof. It's unusual for someone doing a roof replacement to want parts of old roofing left in place.

    Some options:

    1. Get another roofing contractor to give you a written estimate on replacing the entire roof. Maybe 2 of them if possible. Then you have actual figures to compare what you paid to what another contractor says the job should cost.

    2. If the quotes for the whole thing are comparable to what you've already paid, let the contractor know you expect him to either finish the job or be prepared to show up in court when you bring your cost estimates from other roofing companies, his written work (nowhere does he specifically exclude the other roof parts) and what you paid him. 

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  • Clayton Barnes
    Bloomington, IN · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    How much did he charge you for the additional removal? Was it $300 for the 6 squares of roof on the flat area?

    0Reply
  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    PS: Question: is the "fiber board" the roof decking? In Pennsylvania, does "fiber board" mean the same as it does down here, which is a 4x8 sheet product similar to plywood but made out of material like pegboard? If so all I can say is "wow". No way would I be using anything like that for decking on my roofs.

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  • Tim Porsche
    OP
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    9y

    @JD Martin thanks for the feedback, that is great advice! I'll see if I can get two other roofers out who have a good reputation for quotes on the entire roof and compare what I paid with those estimates. My realtor told me the whole roof replacement shouldn't be more than $3,500 so when I got the $3,300 quote I thought it seemed about right. That price would be consistent with the going rate for a similar roof replacement around here I believe.

    On a side note, I've only paid 1/3 (around $1,000) of the cost for the job so far for the down payment. If two other roofing companies come back with quotes and say, "We would only charge you  $2,000 for the main roof and $1,300 for the other sections", would you advise just paying the originaly contractor $2000 then and waiting for them to come after me (if they would decide to) for the extra $1,300 or would it be better to initiate the court case? Obviously I'd much rather stay out of court altogether...just wondering what would be most advantageous. 

    @Clayton Barnes they charged me an extra $540 for removing the two extra layers of roofing. I thought it seemed a little high but not totally unreasonable. 

    0Reply
  • Hunter Ross
    Professional · Waltham, MA · Member since 2017 · 6 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    First, for flat roofs you can do .45 mil and .60 mil TPO roofs. (.60 mil is the best so that's good in that respect). You can also do EPDM if code allows it as there are pros and cons to both roofing system types.  The layers he's referring to is the insulation below the membrane.  If it is shot it's usually because it's saturated.  My recommendation for future work is to bid out different types of roof systems based on use and code compliance.  You should also test TPO/EPDM roofs for abspestus as well when considering roof projects that are older and have older insulation systems.  For a small roofs it shouldn't be much to test as you may not need to perform what's called a total tear off and can get away with an overlay and save some money.  I always get 3-5 bids when doing roofs.  If you don't know what something is roofers know it and will sell you a bill of goods that isn't needed.  If you're not sure have the roofer send you the scope of work in writing and then write up your own RFP (request for proposal) using their scope of work and roof system.  That way roofers are bidding projects apples to apples and you don't get hosed on pricing.  For TPO and EPDM you should get a 1 year installation warranty and at least 10 year manufacturers warranty (20-30) is best but will cost more.

    I'd chalk it up to it is what it is and move on and quote out the rest of what you need done.  

    1Reply
  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    If you get the quotes back as you mentioned, I would give the original contractor the option of completing the entire job for $3300, or get nothing for now while I have another contractor complete the remainder of the roof, and I will pay you the difference between what they charge for the rest and $3300. Then let the contractor bring action against you if they so decide. 

    The contractor is in as tenuous of a situation as you are because they didn't make it clear in their quote. If you obtain documentation that appears to demonstrate the guy is trying to do a bait and switch on you, it will be more likely they'll finish the job at that price or not have as good of a case if/when you go to court. 

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  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I think the problem is the main roof is TPO and the porches are rubber. It may be hard to distinguish the two in court with that proposal. On the other hand, like had been said, they are not excluded either. That puts some of the monkey on his back. He probably knows this. 

    I would get those other bids and see where you stand but it's kind of a two way street. It could go either way. Hopefully you will get good info from those bids. And yes, that was very high for the extra tear off. I've never heard of anyone that charged that unless it was commercial. 

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  • Tim Porsche
    OP
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    9y

    @Mike Reynolds thanks for the feedback! I'll be calling some roofers for quotes shortly and we'll see what they come back at. 

    If it would go to court, do you think the email I sent to the contractor and his assistant would have any weight in showing they had knowledge I wanted the entire roof replaced? Here's the email.

    ""Hi Name,

    Thanks for the quote, I appreciate it! A couple of quick questions for you on the roofing product used though. Will .060 TPO be used on both the flat portion of the roof and the slanted portion and porch roofs, or just the flat section of the roof? Also what is the average life expectancy of .060 TPO roofing for flat roofs? I'm not familiar with the product so I have no idea.

    Thanks!"

    I guess at least in a worse case scenario, if we couldn't come to an agreement and it would go to court, it would only be small claims so the legal fees would be pretty minimal. 

    0Reply
  • Manolo D.
    Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Tim Porsche Pretty simple issue, have the contractor finish his job, when someone says roof, it means ALL, your small claims court will not come, but liens will be filed. There is no indication of how many layers is included in the initial demo, could be 3 layers, 2 or 1, nevertheless, no contractor can charge a client without written consent aka an approved CO. In my world, if it's not black and white, it doesn't exist. You did nothing wrong, the contractor is just not up to industry standard. If I were the contractor, I would do the other 3 sections, call it a day and collect the other 2/3 but will never work with you again. There is no use of paying him more in the hopes he will work with you again, very slim chance in doing so.
    1Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    It doesnt matter what other contractors quote , it has no bearing on the job .  The ONLY thing that matters is whats written in the contract .  Does your state have a home improvement commission? If so contact them . Dont waste another contractors time having them come out to look at a new roof . 

    4Reply
  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    It doesn't sound like he has a choice but to have anyone else come out to look since the original contractor doesn't appear willing to complete the job, so it seems like he can get the quote by default when they come to price out what's left. Unless he keeps working with this contractor. 

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  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tim Porsche:

    @Mike Reynolds thanks for the feedback! I'll be calling some roofers for quotes shortly and we'll see what they come back at. 

    If it would go to court, do you think the email I sent to the contractor and his assistant would have any weight in showing they had knowledge I wanted the entire roof replaced? Here's the email.

    ""Hi Name,

    Thanks for the quote, I appreciate it! A couple of quick questions for you on the roofing product used though. Will .060 TPO be used on both the flat portion of the roof and the slanted portion and porch roofs, or just the flat section of the roof? Also what is the average life expectancy of .060 TPO roofing for flat roofs? I'm not familiar with the product so I have no idea.

    Thanks!"

    I guess at least in a worse case scenario, if we couldn't come to an agreement and it would go to court, it would only be small claims so the legal fees would be pretty minimal. 

     Your right Tim I missed that part. Was reading on my phone. It looks like (to me anyway) you have the right of it then. Did they respond to that email? Did the proposal come after the email?

    I say he has to finish the job. I come across this all the time doing commercial construction. Everything has to just right and whoever crosses the most T's wins. From what you have said here that seems to be you. 

    1Reply
  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Manola brings up a good point too. Did he contact you first about the extras? If not legally he is not entitled to them unless you agree. I know it's spelled out but he still has to tell you first. 

    0Reply
  • Tim Porsche
    OP
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Manolo D.:

    Tim Porsche Pretty simple issue, have the contractor finish his job, when someone says roof, it means ALL, your small claims court will not come, but liens will be filed. There is no indication of how many layers is included in the initial demo, could be 3 layers, 2 or 1, nevertheless, no contractor can charge a client without written consent aka an approved CO. In my world, if it's not black and white, it doesn't exist. You did nothing wrong, the contractor is just not up to industry standard. If I were the contractor, I would do the other 3 sections, call it a day and collect the other 2/3 but will never work with you again. There is no use of paying him more in the hopes he will work with you again, very slim chance in doing so.

     Thanks for the input Manolo. So at the end of the day if the contractor would end up filing a lien, do you know what the process is like to get it removed? My knowledge of liens and the rules governing them is very limited...something I need to read up on I guess. 

    I did give them signed permission to take off the other three layers, so I'm fine paying that. It was in the contract that extra layers would be removed at $x.xx per square so that's alright. What I'm not fine with is paying full price when only have the job was done.

    1Reply
  • Tim Porsche
    OP
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    9y

    @Mike Reynolds yes I did give them permission to remove the extra layers of roofing at the extra cost since that was in the original contract. 

    0Reply
  • Tim Porsche
    OP
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:

    It doesn't sound like he has a choice but to have anyone else come out to look since the original contractor doesn't appear willing to complete the job, so it seems like he can get the quote by default when they come to price out what's left. Unless he keeps working with this contractor. 

     Yeah I don't plan on continuing to work with this contractor unless they would agree to finish the job at the original price, which I think is doubtful at this point but we'll see. I have two other roofers that were recommended by other landlords in the area scheduled to come out and give two separate quotes each. One for what the main section of the roof would cost to replace, and one for what all the other sections would cost. 

    0Reply
  • Manolo D.
    Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Tim Porsche Signed permission, yes you are to pay for it, the question is, how do you define "extra layer", is it the layer after first or is it after which is visible? Anyway, that is up to you. Yes, in your case, he needs to do his job and finish the job. Bring him up to it, tell him you will pay full price but he needs to finish all 3 to satisfaction and industry standard, if not, then you will have to hire someone to do it for him and deduct it from his contract. Pure and simple. However, legal wise, you will need to send him couple traceable communications (text, email, fax, registered mail) at least 3 times to demonstrate that you have indeed make efforts to get things resolved but have failed at it, just to cover your behind. Liens usually fall out, missing deadlines, etc. In CA, if you do not give a 3 day notice to the owner/client, or some words, font sizes, and clauses are not in the contract, or/and other legal notices will invalidate your lien, but if in case he is doing it correctly, you can resolve it if it ever comes up, usually by an arbitrator, losing party will usually pay for arbitrator fees.  On CA specific, once contractor is unlicensed and has done more than $500 of work, he has no chance in filing a lien.

    http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Consumers/Legal_Issues_For_...

    1Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    You have a contract dispute , he reads it one way , you see it another . Sounds its up to a judge  to decide . 

    0Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:

    PS: Question: is the "fiber board" the roof decking? In Pennsylvania, does "fiber board" mean the same as it does down here, which is a 4x8 sheet product similar to plywood but made out of material like pegboard? If so all I can say is "wow". No way would I be using anything like that for decking on my roofs.

    Fiberboard is not what you described - what you described sounds like OSB. Fiberboard link:

    https://www.gaf.com/roofing/commercial/products/ro...

    0Reply
  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @JD Martin:

    PS: Question: is the "fiber board" the roof decking? In Pennsylvania, does "fiber board" mean the same as it does down here, which is a 4x8 sheet product similar to plywood but made out of material like pegboard? If so all I can say is "wow". No way would I be using anything like that for decking on my roofs.

    Fiberboard is not what you described - what you described sounds like OSB. Fiberboard link:

    https://www.gaf.com/roofing/commercial/products/ro...

     Thanks Steve. I wasn't thinking of OSB, though - I am plenty familiar with that. I was thinking of a 4x8 sheet product similar to MDF but with a fibery almost cardboard appearance when torn open.

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    jerk. I had a contractor do this to me to. We had a roof with a back dormer which was a low pitch while the remaining roof was shingle. He quote the roof and we agreed and sign a contract. Based on the square quoted I thought he was going to do the whole roof shingle. First he told me he did it and then he said that needs a different kind of roofing, promised to come back but never did. My experience with roofers is there aren't any decent ones at a reasonable price. He did quote all 3 layer removal though. Review him that is the only way to get thier attention and even then sometimes it doesn't work.
    1Reply
  • Jay G.
    CA · Member since 2014 · 152 posts · 65 votes
    9y

    Half a roof, half a contractor? 

    Seriously though, how about:

    - Get quote for the other sections from another local roofer. Up to you to share your experience or not with the roofer giving new bid, but I wouldn't share the price that you paid to your scammer roofer for the first half of the job.


    - Send that new quote to the scamming contractor. Offer him a short period of time to perform the work as you originally agreed.  Inform him if he fails to complete within that period of time, you will file a licensing board complaint and sue him for the additional charges you had to pay to complete the work + damages + attorney fees. Do this in writing - send email w/attachment and the same via registered mail to his mailing address on file with the licensing board.

    - If he is unresponsive or refuses, wait for that period of time you allowed to pass, then get your work done & sue.

    Save your emails, make a timeline, take photos of everything. 

    One additional thought - PA is a two-party recording state -- so you can't record private phone calls to him without his consent. However, there may be some flexibility there. See this link.   It would seem that essentially says if you can get him to meet you somewhere "public" .. e.g. starbucks in the morning for coffee, mcdonalds for lunch, etc. where you can offer to treat him and to talk in person "to figure out what it will take to remedy this situation" then you may be able to record him? (Of course consult w/your attorney first).

    2Reply
  • Jay G.
    CA · Member since 2014 · 152 posts · 65 votes
    9y

    For everyone else... when getting a roofing job estimate, make a single page overhead printout of your house (google images or whatever) and make sure the contractor clearly indicates on this document all sections to be included (even if it's a giant circle around everything). I'd especially do this if you have a detached garage, shingled porch, or similar that you specifically want in scope.

    1Reply
  • Alex S.
    Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 66 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Listen Tim normally I don't comment, I just usually read everyone else comments. But I had to put my two cents in. I am a licensed contractor in Georgia, I make my contracts/job descriptions very detailed. I leave no room for mistakes like this. I would not pay this guy one dime. He said "Remove & dispose of the existing roof" For him being the professional he should have been a little more clear, I would have said something like replace front slope and put in parenthesis "this does not include entire roof, just front slope/elevation, or main section of home". I would have made sure that somewhere I stated it did not include entire roof and what we were doing. He said existing roof, a roof is not one section, it is one roof that covers the entire area of the property.

    2Reply
  • Michael Plante
    Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    what is the average cost per sq foot in the area for the work done?

    Most likely a judge will require you to pay that. 

    Personally if it would be approx $3,000 I would pay it and be done with it

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