Atlanta neighborhood classification question

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Atlanta neighborhood classification question

Anna Watkins
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes

I'm looking for some benchmarks for figuring out how different areas in intown and near OP Atlanta are classified (A, B, C, D areas).  I bought my personal residence 'across the tracks' in the City of Decatur 20 years ago (in the crack-house era), stay away from Buckhead as much as possible, and invest in Belvedere/East Lake, so my comfort-zone might be a bit skewed off average.  I can't figure out what's B, C, & D, or how to imagine those areas in other cities I might want to invest in.

So, how would you classify Oakhurst/Winnona Park? B? C+?  @Rick Baggenstoss -- what's Midway Woods now?  What was it 7 years ago? @Todd Whiddon -- how about the Northlake neighborhoods?

How is an area like Garden Hills or Peachtree Hills in Buckhead classified?  Are they A areas?  Is there even a classification concept for the MacChateaux on Riverside Drive, or Mt. Paran Rd?

What about Belvedere Park?  I'd live there in a minute, but I'm not everybody.  My plumber said he was nervous about the area, which made me really start to wonder!  Are we in C or D territory here?

And West End/Adair Park?  How about the areas west of GA Tech but south of the newly trendy Westside. It's so spotty now, but I still don't have a feel for how they compare to "war zones."

Any rules of thumb for figuring this out on my own?   Does it translate from city to city?  Thanks!!

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Michaela G.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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As to plumber, I loooove my plumber: Toby Jones 770-572-0307. Originally found him on craigslist, but he's fantastic and inexpensive and reliable and he does all my houses.

I think neighborhood categorization can so differ between perspectives.

I moved into Grant Park in '91 and everyone that heard about it, but hadn't been there in a long time was asking whether I wasn't scared and whether I had a gun. The first night I spent in my new old house I woke up with loud gunshots. I was terrified. It was right behind my house and sounded as if a gang war was going on. I got dressed, grabbed my cat and my purse in order to drive to a hotel somewhere. As I came out my front door, I noticed all these people on the street, watching the fireworks from the stadium a few blocks behind my house, because the Braves had just won a game.

Some people thought it was a D neighborhood, I never saw it that way. I proceeded to renovate about a 10 Victorians in the following 15 years in the area. Never had the need to carry a gun. I always loved the neighborhood.

From Grant Park I moved into Adair Park in 2003. I saw the same housing stock, so close to Downtown and saw a neighborhood that was so due to shine. Unfortunately, mortgage scammers took on everything in 30310 and destroyed so many properties. And I did some research and turned a few larger ones over to the FBI - hehe.

Adair Park houses are in the +100K range , very different from West End. But West End has pockets that are gorgeous Victorians and there are pockets with rundown crackhouses, so, I think it varies a lot.

Right across from Adair Park, on the other side of Metropolitan, there's Pittsburgh. Most investors think this is a total war zone. But I started buying there in 2008, because I knew the neighborhood well (had been flipping lots there a few years before, when I lived in Adair Park) and knew that it really wasn't so bad. I got great deals and don't regret buying. I can live of the income now. And I lived in 1 of my houses for 1.5 years in 2011/12 , white, blonde, blue eyed with a red convertible. Never had anything happen to me. I walked all through the neighborhood daily, between my houses. Yes, there was a certain amount of racism against me by some, but I was never attacked or had anything happen to me. Most people are just hardworking people, who try to make ends meet. 

So, I think the best thing to get to know a neighborhood is to farm it. Not to work on 10 areas at the same time and be a jack-of-all-trades, but become a specialist in whatever neighborhood you want to work in. Walk it. Talk to people. Get to know the neighborhood. Introduce yourself. Give out your card with promise of reward for turning you on to a house. And make up your own mind. Perceptions may still be from some years before and the areas may have changed since.

Just my opinion ;-)

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  • Mike Watkins
    Wholesaler · Powder Springs, GA · Member since 2013 · 516 posts · 143 votes
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    Great question. Following. 

    Also you mind sharing your plumber?

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins  I'm very interested to see how those Atlanta investors with more experience than me respond to this question.  I think those classifications are purely subjective and cannot  easily translate from city-to-city except in very broad terms.  For example, I would consider Oakhurst to be an A neighborhood for investing, and Peachtree Hills/Garden Hills in Buckhead will always be an A.  I'm not sure those neighborhoods in Buckhead around Mt Paran, Riverside, Northside, West Paces Ferry can even be classified - what is a neighborhood where the cheapest house exceeds $1.0 million?  Not an area I can invest!  

    West End/Adair Park is improving, but my guess is still D+ to C pockets with more D and F properties than A or B and will be slow growth; conversely East Atlanta, Belvedere Park, Ormewood Park, Edgewood, Kirkwood neighborhoods have been solidly C- (or lower) and now are trending up to where many areas are B/C and improving. Grant Park and Inman Park neighborhoods have already seen the improvement.

    I also wonder if the grading and/or mindset differs whether or not you are flipping v. holding for rental income.  There are neighborhoods in Atlanta that I think of in different terms depending on whether to purchase as a rental or as a flip. 

    Interesting question! 

    3Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    @Mike Watkins  - Reg Locus (aka Reggie the Plumber, will send phone# in PM).  Licensed master plumber, former Marine, good guy, lives in Pine Lake.  He's also a beginning investor (saints preserve him, he says I inspired him to buy houses!).

    @David Begley  - good points about differentiating by intent (investing or living, flip or hold).  Funny to think of my neighborhood as an A, but it's true, there are 2 $800K listings within 4 houses of me, and 2 $700k new builds at the end of the street.    I've been pondering some out-of-state turnkeys, and am looking for some way to understand unknown neighborhoods from a distance.    Do you suppose the number of construction dumpsters per street is a classification key :-) ?

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins  I've actually been going through the same exercise.  I've been looking at turnkeys in Jacksonville, Indianapolis, and as a distant third choice, Kansas City and have been trying to understand what I'd be getting into - more specifically, what type of CLIENT/RENTER I would be getting into.  My brother is a public school principal in Jacksonville, a rental market I believe will be very hot the next 5 years, and I had him take me around the city to tour neighborhoods I had collected property information about from several Turnkey Operators.  I asked him to take me to several streets/properties I'd collected and also described for him neighborhoods I'd consider D neighborhoods in Atlanta.  I thought his knowledge of the Duval County schools would help in this exercise.  What I found is that a D neighborhood in Jacksonville would easily pass for a C to C+ neighborhood in Atlanta.  JAX, comparatively speaking, doesn't really have a D neighborhood if you use Atlanta as your yardstick.  So, if you are talking to someone from JAX marketing properties and they speak of a property being in a C/D area, that may mean something entirely different to you.  

    What I will do when it becomes time is talk to Property Managers in the respective City, those not affiliated with the Turnkey Operator, and ask them how difficult it would be to rent the properties offered by the Turnkey, the type of tenant, average rent rates, etc. to get a feel for the areas that are hot and those that are to be avoided.

    1Reply
  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @David Begley You make a good point about classifications varying by market. A C class property in one market can easily be a D class in another, especially markets that have a lot of new construction. I'm curious what you see in 5 years that will make Jacksonville a very hot rental market. It's good to see Indianapolis on your list. Indy is one of the best cash flow markets in the country. I'm not sure I would put Kansas City a distant 3rd though. KC is also a great cash flow market very similar to Indianapolis and with the Cerner Corp development taken place on the east side, it's going to boom. I know both of these markets well. If you want to get some more insight on them, I'll be happy to share my thoughts. You can also get info on them on my website.

    0Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    As to plumber, I loooove my plumber: Toby Jones 770-572-0307. Originally found him on craigslist, but he's fantastic and inexpensive and reliable and he does all my houses.

    I think neighborhood categorization can so differ between perspectives.

    I moved into Grant Park in '91 and everyone that heard about it, but hadn't been there in a long time was asking whether I wasn't scared and whether I had a gun. The first night I spent in my new old house I woke up with loud gunshots. I was terrified. It was right behind my house and sounded as if a gang war was going on. I got dressed, grabbed my cat and my purse in order to drive to a hotel somewhere. As I came out my front door, I noticed all these people on the street, watching the fireworks from the stadium a few blocks behind my house, because the Braves had just won a game.

    Some people thought it was a D neighborhood, I never saw it that way. I proceeded to renovate about a 10 Victorians in the following 15 years in the area. Never had the need to carry a gun. I always loved the neighborhood.

    From Grant Park I moved into Adair Park in 2003. I saw the same housing stock, so close to Downtown and saw a neighborhood that was so due to shine. Unfortunately, mortgage scammers took on everything in 30310 and destroyed so many properties. And I did some research and turned a few larger ones over to the FBI - hehe.

    Adair Park houses are in the +100K range , very different from West End. But West End has pockets that are gorgeous Victorians and there are pockets with rundown crackhouses, so, I think it varies a lot.

    Right across from Adair Park, on the other side of Metropolitan, there's Pittsburgh. Most investors think this is a total war zone. But I started buying there in 2008, because I knew the neighborhood well (had been flipping lots there a few years before, when I lived in Adair Park) and knew that it really wasn't so bad. I got great deals and don't regret buying. I can live of the income now. And I lived in 1 of my houses for 1.5 years in 2011/12 , white, blonde, blue eyed with a red convertible. Never had anything happen to me. I walked all through the neighborhood daily, between my houses. Yes, there was a certain amount of racism against me by some, but I was never attacked or had anything happen to me. Most people are just hardworking people, who try to make ends meet. 

    So, I think the best thing to get to know a neighborhood is to farm it. Not to work on 10 areas at the same time and be a jack-of-all-trades, but become a specialist in whatever neighborhood you want to work in. Walk it. Talk to people. Get to know the neighborhood. Introduce yourself. Give out your card with promise of reward for turning you on to a house. And make up your own mind. Perceptions may still be from some years before and the areas may have changed since.

    Just my opinion ;-)

    12Reply
  • Peterson Dierivot
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    @David BegleyPretty good synopsis! Have you done any investing in Jacksonville yet? 

    @Anna Watkins I agree with David's response. Most property managers have a great understanding, within their respective cities, in regard to rentals (e.g. type of tenant, average rent rates, etc.). I spoke with a friend of mine who is a property manager here in Jax. They know the city just as well as some Realtors/ Agents. 

    -Pete

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    Jacksonville is projecting an increasing population, more white collar employment opportunities, especially in the tech sector, with comparatively low cost housing and all around low unemployment.  I only say KC as a distant 3rd because I am more familiar with Indy and JAX.  

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Peterson Dierivot , Thank you. No, I haven't invested in JAX yet, just doing my research.  It will probably be 9-12 months before I actually pull the trigger on anything. 

    0Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    Great responses -- thanks everyone.  @Michaela G. - I love your stories about Grant Park and Adair Park. I passed on Grant and Ormewood when I bought in '96, but the cops did stop and take a pistol off a guy in front of my Oakhurst house soon after I moved in! If I didn't have teenagers, I'd be really tempted to buy and move into one of the cool older houses in that West End-ish area.

    It might be a topic for another thread, but I'd love to hear others' research into turnkey cities.  I'm leaning toward areas within striking distance where I have some connection (Chattanooga, Birmingham, Huntsville -- Jax is an interesting thought too, and a lot closer to surfing). Until the Turnkey reviews site is beefed up, how does one start gathering intel? Just start making calls to property managers?

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Michaela G. Great anecdotes all!  That's how I have started to feel about Edgewood/Kirkwood neighborhoods in East Atlanta, but I sure didn't begin feeling so positive!  In reading your post, I bet you were one of the lucky ones to have bought in Inman Park when it was affordable.  

    0Reply
  • Matt R.
    Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Esri Tapestry going by zips identifies 67 unique segments within the A-D classes of hoods. There will be multiple segments within each zip and it breaks it down in percentages. I found this free service helpful. Good luck with your search!

    1Reply
  • Peterson Dierivot
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins Property managers are just one resource. You have your local REIA clubs, wholesalers, flippers, local realtors, etc. As a new realtor, I'm currently gathering information with the mentioned resources as well. I'm sure other BP members have some insight on this.

    -Pete

    0Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins , as to Adair Park, I think it's one of the most underrated neighborhoods in Atlanta. It's like this little secret and people actually move there for the community and they bring their friends in. You don't see it from the outside, but being there, it's very different from many other neighborhoods. People know each other.

    They set up a social community page https://www.facebook.com/groups/adairpark/ with 450 members. People set up events with that, parties, play dates for children, where can I buy this? Can someone recommend a plumber? Anybody want to check out this restaurant on Friday? What do you know about that? You are not on your own in Adair Park, if you don't want to.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 785 posts · 190 votes
    11y

    Very few people seem to ever consider owner finance instead of renting. When I finally got this figured out, real estate investing get 10 times easier. If you want to learn more about how we do it, let me know. I used to rent property. Not anymore. 

    And I do hear KC is a good market, my turnkey contact there is extremely busy,!!

    0Reply
  • Rachel Leonard
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 112 posts · 15 votes
    11y

    Thanks everyone for all the input on Atlanta neighborhood's. I live here but I'm from overseas and have struggled to make sense of ITP and it seems to be such a mixed bag.  Honestly the only white, middle class people I know of who live ITP are my Australian friends.

    @Anna Watkins & @David Begley - why are you looking at turnkeys in other areas? I thought that Atlanta was one of the better rental markets. Are you aiming to spread your risk or are you looking for better returns?

    0Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Rachel Leonard:

    Thanks everyone for all the input on Atlanta neighborhood's. I live here but I'm from overseas and have struggled to make sense of ITP and it seems to be such a mixed bag.  Honestly the only white, middle class people I know of who live ITP are my Australian friends.

    @Anna Watkins & @David Begley - why are you looking at turnkeys in other areas? I thought that Atlanta was one of the better rental markets. Are you aiming to spread your risk or are you looking for better returns?

     Rachel, you need to get out and meet more people then! lol  The bulk of the discussion here is about East Atlanta and the West End and those areas are very diverse ethnically and economically and those are also the areas with the most residential inventory whether for investors or owner occupants.  However, if you look in Inman Park, Morningside, Virginia Highlands, Buckhead, Peachtree Hills, Brookhaven, Emory, Poncey-Highlands you'll find those areas less ethnically diverse but not an area very active with most investor types on BPs.  The home prices are much too high for rentals or flips, unless you have the wherewithal to do $1.0 million flips.  

    0Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard Hah!  Ditto what David said!  You must spend most of your time OP, as they say.  Spend some time around the Decatur town square. 

    Atlanta's not like Sydney at all, where the further west you go from the center, the less cool. Here I suspect growth and racism ebb and flow with each other.  Many of the neighborhoods that David mentioned were white, then black as the white folk fled to the 'burbs in the 50s nd 60s, and now white again as trends change and the lawyers and executives got tired of driving down 400 every day to work.

    Intown has many predominantly white middle-class (or even scraping the top of middle) folks, mostly clustered in specific areas (Buckhead, Virginia Highland, the north side of Decatur).  Then there are the more diverse neighborhoods (we call them 'transitional') where the working (and sometimes not-working) class and middle-class educated hipsters co-exisit (I would say East Atlanta, Kirkwood, Reynoldstown are like this).  And then there are non-white neighborhoods, some hard in poverty, and some educated and middle-to-upper-middle-class.  

    One really cool thing about Atlanta is that there is a large affluent educated African-American population, with 2 top-notch historically black colleges (Spelman and Moorehouse), which is different than most Southern cities.   

    4Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard  - to actually answer your question, I'm just always curious and like to learn about new places and opportunities.  I'm exploring other cities party just because, and partly to try something new (so far I've managed my own rentals), and partly because the price for a decent turnkey in another city might be better than here (and I won't feel guilty paying somebody else to manage it for me!)

    Most of my "ideas of the week" fade away, but every now and then one runs away with me and I end up with another house (or taking cello lessons, or taking my kids hostelling in Mexico for a week) :-)

    1Reply
  • David Begley
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard @Anna Watkins  As an aside, I'm always interested in following these demographic related conversations as they relate to Atlanta.  External investors and those new to Atlanta tend to view Atlanta through lenses based on their past experiences and aren't used to analyzing as a minority.  Most don't realize that Whites are about 35% of the population, African Americans approximately 60% with a strong Hispanic population.  

    0Reply
  • Todd Whiddon
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2010 · 325 posts · 335 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins I've never really thought of the Intown Hoods as A-B-C-D, I always just think, "Do I need my hatchet, my pistol, or my AR-15?"

    Most of our new construction these days is in what MOST would consider A-B parts of town, "Dunwoody, Roswell, North Fulton, Briarcliff"

    But 2-3 years ago before new construction was feasible we were mostly flipping in what most would consider C-D hoods, Gresham Park, East Atlanta, South Edgewood.

    I'm currently looking to build up my rental portfolio in the D parts of town that have potential to transition to B-C in the next 15-20 years.

    Each part of town has it's own price point and game you can play. There is money to be made in all of them. If I'm looking at a deal in a part of town I'm not familiar with, I check out the MLS comps to see if the buy/sell numbers make sense, and then just ask around until I find someone familiar with the area who can tell me how many times my AC unit will be stolen before I sell it, and adjust my rehab budget accordingly. :)

    5Reply
  • Kerry BairdPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Melbourne, FL · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Now, that's an interesting way to "secure" an HVAC unit!

    1Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    In my area they will take their tools and dismantle the condenser from the outside and they will then pull out the parts and you will be left with the 'cage' intact. Therefore I do not provide A/c

    0Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    I have yet to have one stolen, but have looked at a couple of houses that have been stripped.  One even had the water heater taken out from the crawlspace!

    @Todd Whiddon  - Ingenious, but nothing will stop a punk with a big lock-cutter.  Curious, what D areas are you considering for rentals, and do you manage or have a manager (in-house or other?)?  I'm not as familiar with the west side of I75/85 as I am in my SE corner of IP, but I keep inching out.

    0Reply
  • Rick Baggenstoss
    Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins You obviously have a good eye for what's happening since you (and I) bought in Decatur while it was still considered a bad area.  A neighbor next to my house in Oakhurst paid a dollar in the 70's.  She's cashing out for ~$350k.  

    In Atlanta, I'd look for an area close to an "A" area with good housing stock and some traction.  Find a great house that cash flows and wait.  

    I'm a fan of doing this in a couple of areas.  I'd hate to be too dependent on a single school system.  Too much value can be destroyed with an accreditation or cheating scandal.  Diversify.

    Ok, here's my ranking.  I'm not afraid to get beat up.  Please modify these as you see fit.

    Tier A examples:

    - Buckhead, Chastain, Mt Paran, Peachtree Hills

    - North City of Decatur, Brookhaven, Dunwoody, Sandy Springs

    Tier B

    - Inman Park, Rest of City of Decatur, Candler Park

    Tier C

    - Kirkwood, Avondale, East Atlanta, Grant Park, Westview

    - Edgewood, Reynoldstown, East Lake, Midway Woods

    Tier D

    - West End, Adair Park, Ormewood, Belvedere

    - East Point, Hapeville

    - Pittsburgh, Capitol View, Peoplestown, South Atlanta

    - Vine City

    If I had a good W2, I'd buy Tier C cash flowing houses.  If I had was trying to generate more income, had a longer timeframe, I'd go for the first row of Tier Ds.

    Who wouldn't want this for $45k?

    4Reply
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