house was stolen! assistance is mandatory!

house was stolen! assistance is mandatory!

Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 92 posts · 4 votes

this is a long read and i apologize.  but this story is complete with criminal elements and creative resolve.  please offer assistance.

i want to purchase a vacant property in philadelphia to expand my business.  right now, my business is located next to the vacant property.  the property has been vacant for 8 years.  the vacant property is in bad shape.  the vacant property has back taxes.  the vacant property owner is long gone, until 3 months ago.

i found him and asked if he wanted to sell.  he said sure.  we worked out numbers and we agreed on a deal.  i told him i would give him X amount of dollars and i would assume all the debt attached to the property etc.  he was fine with that.  i told the owner i will run title and get back to him when the title search comes back.  the title came back.  

apparently, the house was sold one month ago.  the title company sent me a digitized deed that shows the property owner (who i have been negotiating with) signing over the property to a woman for 7k.  i told the property owner and he said he has never sold the house, he has never met the woman and he sure as hell hasnt received 7k.  the deed was recorded in philadelphia at the recorder of deeds and notarized by a local notary.

in philadelphia, the recorder of deeds records a deed in recordable form. Poof you just got your house stolen! you can have a paper typed up and notarized on the top of a used washer and dryer and the city will record the deed and its up to the correct property owner to prove that he did not sell the house!  how the F*** is that??  

the property owner and i are both stunned.  we have been having several discussions on how to resolve this.  the property owner has contacted the philadelphia sheriff and the District Attorney.  in order to resolve this, it seems you need to file a motion to quiet title. the motion will go in front of a judge and probably go to trial, even if its not contestable.  the judge would want us to prove how the transaction is fraudulent.  for starters, one of the signatures dated 12-14 if from a man who passed away in 2012 (the property owners brother).  second, the notary who notarized this deed, who i confronted denied notarizing the deed and says its a fraud stamp.  point being, if we present our case to a judge im sure it will be easy for us to prove it was fraud, but it will take over a year and maybe close to 3-5k just to go through the courts. 

my point with this rant, is to try to come up with a plan to get this woman to sign the property back over to the correct property owner without going to court.  the lawyers said, this deed conveyance was done out of court and it can be reversed out of court, as long as you can get the woman to sign it back over.  

now it gets funny, i received a phone call from this woman three days ago.  rememeber my business is next door.  she called me and asked me if i wanted to buy the vacant property.  she claims she bought the house from the owner three months back and they went to a lawyers office in downtown phila to do the transaction.  she has no idea that i am like months and months into this property and i already ran title a while ago that shows a signature from a dead guy and signed by a notary who denies signing it and she has no idea that i have been speaking to the REAL property owner for months.  i  played dumb like "Yea sure im interested, can i come and see the house?"  she invited me over and the house def looked like it has been vacant for 8 years.  trash and demo and no electricity and no sinks and pipes everywhere etc. i recorded the conversation.  she wants 50k for the house she stole.

i recorded the conversation.  i have her name and number and she is expecting me to call her shortly.  she claims to have other people interested which i doubt.

if i tell her in my next visit that i know she has stolen the property and she better sign it back or risk going to jail, she will vanish back into the streets and never come to philly and the house will drift back into the worm hole that philadelphia is known for.  i need to get her to sign this house back to the real property owner voluntarily but i need it all done at the same time so she cant run away.  im thinking of getting cops and lawyers and confront her like ummmm sign this document and we will all walk away without incident or you will have the district attorney issuing a warrant for your arrest if you dont cooperate.  

the house is important to me.  its worth it.  its my business's future.  

thoughts?  i will exchange my number in a private message to somebody that can offer assistance.  thanks for the read!

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Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 902 votes
11y

Read this...not so uncommon. 

BTW, I'd be careful recording conversations, I believe it's illegal in PA. Not just phone calls but conversations!

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Edmond, OK · Member since 2012 · 456 posts · 270 votes
    11y
    I have no suggestions to add but will mention that stuff like this, i.e. selling property that doesn't belong to you is a practice I thought only occurred in 3rd world countries - like where I was born.
  • Investor · Feasterville Trevose, PA · Member since 2015 · 107 posts · 31 votes
    11y

    Wow.  I heard there was a guy going around doing the same thing with vacant properties.   I guess there's more than one.  What police district is it in?  You could try to throw her a bone to buy her out but I'd like to see these people start getting charged for their crimes.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Whose signature is on the deed? Does it look at all like the owners? 

    Was the deed legally notarized? If so, who is the notary? Is their stamp and license current? Notaries are licensed and bonded. They check ID. They don't usually help criminals.  However, there are scams out there with people using fake notary stamps.

    Who recorded the deed? Title/escrow company? New owner? Are there any identifying numbers for an escrow or title policy? Are the property taxes up to date?  If so, when was the last payment made and by whom.

    If I had to bet money, I'd bet that the owner sold it and doesn't remember.  (Ask me how I know about that one.) Or it was falsely sold to the woman trying to sell it to you by a completely different party. (Ask me how I know about that one.)

    There are all kinds of scams on vacant property. Even so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions until I had proof that the person trying to sell to you committed a crime.  Which you don't have at this point. 

  • Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 902 votes
    11y

    Read this...not so uncommon. 

    BTW, I'd be careful recording conversations, I believe it's illegal in PA. Not just phone calls but conversations!

  • Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Ask her who the Attorney is that handled the closing. I bet she will have to "get back to you".

    I would get a statement from the notary that he/she never notarized the document.

    Then I would get a copy of the brother's death certificate and a statement from the owner that he never signed the documents.

    Take those documents to the DA and see if they will help.  

    If the DA will not help then I would set a meeting with her and the seller and the notary and present the documents and have her sign it over.  

    If that fails, a Louisville Slugger might just close the deal.

    Good luck

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
  • Investor · Feasterville Trevose, PA · Member since 2015 · 107 posts · 31 votes
    11y

    Troy, that's the guy I was talking about.  I believe he's done several.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    I missed the part that there is a deceased co-owner that supposedly signed the deed.  The false deed may be the least of your problems.  How did the brothers hold title?  Unless it was as joint tenants, you're going need to probate the deceased brother's share. Were there other siblings or co-owners on title?

    I once had a couple approach me trying to sell a property that had been on my radar for years.  There were 9 very senior sibling co-owners, 4 of them deceased. One of the living siblings orchestrated a false deed to a nephew.  She signed all the signatures and found a notary to notarize it.  That properly was worth a lot of money and that couple tried to sell it for years.  No one would go near it.  It finally went to tax sale.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    I'm with @Account Closed on this.

    I'd say this is a he said/she said case for the moment.

    My vote is to tie up the deal you want with the principal with provisions for clear, marketable title. 

    Then, go back and play with this other seller without disclosing your direct deal. 

    It may very well be that A forgot about buyer B, or did not receive the money or was under the influence, etc. He may even have dementia on some days and not others. 

    Or buyer B may be legit and acted in good faith. 

    What's bad is good. If B skips, you can further discount your acquisition and file suit to quiet title and expunge effect of her recorded deed. (Requires patience and good knowledge of her whereabouts for noticing purposes). 

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 92 posts · 4 votes
    11y

    @k.marie poe - you really would bet the owner, being of sound mind and body, would forget actually selling a property?  i first reached out to the owner in november, then we spoke again in december, and the deal was actually agreed upon in late january...thats when i pulled title and found out the property was sold in december to a woman.   it was an extreme coincidence the property was "sold" at the same time i was interested in the property.  the property was probably on the radar of some criminals only because it was certified for a tax sale, which could take 18 months to sell in phila (ask me how i know this:)...

    the deed that i have been emailed by the title company i used to pull the title, is digitized, not the original.  its a legit deed recorded by the city.  there are time stamps and dates it was recorded.  but the city of philadelphia recorder of deeds office has no gate keeper to check deeds.  they are a dumping ground.  the record deeds presented to them in recordable form.  this deed was in recordable form.  

    for names sake im making up names here.  the property belongs to David and John. David and john have owned the property for 30 years.  John passed away and the property is in Davids name.  David is the sole owner because when the deed when transfered to the brothers 30 years ago it had a right of survivorship.  if something happened to one brother, the property would belong to the other brother.  the deceased brother who passed away in 2013 is off the deed and off the cities record but apparently he came back from the grave and signed the bill of sale and deed over to a woman.  it boggles my mind the city doesnt event check to see who is the proper deed holder or not.

    a title company was not used.  no money was placed in escrow. the notary whose name is on the deed states he did not notarize the deed.   

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Troy Sheets:

    Read this...not so uncommon. 

    BTW, I'd be careful recording conversations, I believe it's illegal in PA. Not just phone calls but conversations!

     As long as the conversation is in a public place, ie where others can hear it, then its not illegal. Pa is one of, i think, only 7 or so states that this is illegal. (Dont ask me how I know about that one, haha) you have to get both parties consent to record in those 7 or so states. In the other ones, as long as one party consents, its a go. 

    Thats a strange situation for sure. I'll definitely follow this to find out the outcome

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Boggin:

    @k.marie poe - you really would bet the owner, being of sound mind and body, would forget actually selling a property?  i first reached out to the owner in november, then we spoke again in december, and the deal was actually agreed upon in late january...thats when i pulled title and found out the property was sold in december to a woman.   it was an extreme coincidence the property was "sold" at the same time i was interested in the property.  the property was probably on the radar of some criminals only because it was certified for a tax sale, which could take 18 months to sell in phila (ask me how i know this:)...

    the deed that i have been emailed by the title company i used to pull the title, is digitized, not the original.  its a legit deed recorded by the city.  there are time stamps and dates it was recorded.  but the city of philadelphia recorder of deeds office has no gate keeper to check deeds.  they are a dumping ground.  the record deeds presented to them in recordable form.  this deed was in recordable form.  

    for names sake im making up names here.  the property belongs to David and John. David and john have owned the property for 30 years.  John passed away and the property is in Davids name.  David is the sole owner because when the deed when transfered to the brothers 30 years ago it had a right of survivorship.  if something happened to one brother, the property would belong to the other brother.  the deceased brother who passed away in 2013 is off the deed and off the cities record but apparently he came back from the grave and signed the bill of sale and deed over to a woman.  it boggles my mind the city doesnt event check to see who is the proper deed holder or not.

    a title company was not used.  no money was placed in escrow. the notary whose name is on the deed states he did not notarize the deed.   

    Get a copy of the original deed that transfers title out of the brothers and into the new owner.  If you're working with indexed/digitized info and not the original document, then it's all speculation.

    Right of survivorship would still require an affidavit and copy of the original death cert. in order for the seller you are working with to be the sole owner. 

    Have you seen the original deed into the brothers, with right of survivorship?  Have you seen a death cert. for the brother?

    Your comments about the recorder are misplaced. As long as a I follow recorder protocols for documents in your county and can get it notarized, I can record anything I want.  Title insurance is where and how the chain of title is checked and guaranteed.  That being said, title companies are guided by state and local rules.

    @Steve Babiak Can you confirm how right of survivorship works in PA.  Does it require an original death cert?  Can anybody sign the affidavit?

  • Accountant · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 210 votes
    11y

    http://www.philadelinquency.com/2015/01/13/taking-...

    This all sounds shockingly similar to the Philadeliquency story. Maybe reach out to them.

  • Accountant · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 210 votes
    11y

    Someone else beat me to it.

  • Homeowner · HI · Member since 2015 · 26 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    I would need to review the actual title report and deed in question to get a better assessment. Many people from Hawaii record frivolous docs all the time. Many of them claiming to be descendants of King Kamehameha I record deeds to their names on properties they dont own. It's funny but a lot of headache.

    Since the deed was not insured by a title company, it won't be recognized as a valid deed. Contact the title company who issued you your report and let them know the deed in question is fradulent. You can provide a copy of the owner's brother's death certificate and have them revise your title report.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Reach out to Christopher sawyer. I believe he will be able to help you. He authors philadelinquency.com and is currently running for sheriff. He has dealt with stuff like this before. Keep us posted please.
  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    ...

    Since the deed was not insured by a title company, it won't be recognized as a valid deed. ...

    This is BS. I have received a number of Sheriff's deeds, all of then valid, and none of then were insured by a title company. Title insurance has nothing to do with the validity of a deed. 

    And any deed transfer from decedent to an heir or multiple heirs will normally happen without getting title insurance. Does not make that deed any less valid. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    To the thread participants not from PA, namely @Bob B. show this. This phenomenon caused the Philadelphia City Council to enact legislation that forced the Philadelphia Register of Deeds to enact a new policy that they send notification of transfers to the grantors, just in case there was a fraudulent transfer. 

    See page 3 of this link:

    http://www.phila.gov/records/pdfs/bill080424-A.pdf

    A few years ago, those who had property stolen this way thought "there oughtta be a law", and now those who have had property stolen this way realize that the existence of the law hasn't stopped the crime from happening. After all, the law doesn't stop criminals from committing crime, it only stops non-criminals from committing crime. 

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:

    To the thread participants not from PA, namely @Bob B. show this. This phenomenon caused the Philadelphia City Council to enact legislation that forced the Philadelphia Register of Deeds to enact a new policy that they send notification of transfers to the grantors, just in case there was a fraudulent transfer. 

    See page 3 of this link:

    http://www.phila.gov/records/pdfs/bill080424-A.pdf

    A few years ago, those who had property stolen this way thought "there oughtta be a law", and now those who have had property stolen this way realize that the existence of the law hasn't stopped the crime from happening. After all, the law doesn't stop criminals from committing crime, it only stops non-criminals from committing crime. 

     Well I think it is a misnomer to say the house was "stolen".  Someone has clouded the title but the original owner still OWNS the property.  He/she may have to go thru some hoops if they need to prove it.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Boggin:

    ...

    the deed that i have been emailed by the title company i used to pull the title, is digitized, not the original.  its a legit deed recorded by the city.  there are time stamps and dates it was recorded.  ...

    for names sake im making up names here.  the property belongs to David and John. David and john have owned the property for 30 years.  John passed away and the property is in Davids name.  David is the sole owner because when the deed when transfered to the brothers 30 years ago it had a right of survivorship.  if something happened to one brother, the property would belong to the other brother.  the deceased brother who passed away in 2013 is off the deed and off the cities record ...

    Are you 100% certain that the deed EXPLICITLY states "joint tenants with rights of survivorship" or alternatively "tenants in the entirety" or "tenancy by the entireties"?  Because siblings usually want their descendants to inherit their assets before their siblings. So I would expect that "tenants in common" is how these brothers held the property - but there certainly could be exceptions to that, hence why I ask. 

  • Homeowner · HI · Member since 2015 · 26 posts · 12 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    ...

    Since the deed was not insured by a title company, it won't be recognized as a valid deed. ...

    This is BS. I have received a number of Sheriff's deeds, all of then valid, and none of then were insured by a title company. Title insurance has nothing to do with the validity of a deed. 

    And any deed transfer from decedent to an heir or multiple heirs will normally happen without getting title insurance. Does not make that deed any less valid. 

     I should rephrase. Since the deed was not insured by a title company, the title researchers would have to review chain of title more thoroughly before they can insure the property as having clean title. 

    I'm from Hawaii so I can't speak for the state you live in but if the deed has been insured by a title company, we can trust title is clean. I've worked in the title industry and I've seen deeds that were not insured get recorded only to find out that property was not transferred appropriately.  For example, I remember working on one where a husband and wife acquired title but at some point got a divorce and the ex wife passed away. After some time the husband decided to convey the property to another party. Since the husband and wife divorced prior to the ex wife passing away, he did not have rights of survivorship and so the new owner who obtained the property thinking she acquired it free and clear realized she only owned 50% interest. I don't know what came out of that situation but the property had to go through probate.

    Title can be transferred without title insurance, that is true. But when it comes time to take out a mortgage, the lender will require one.  

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    ...

    ... if the deed has been insured by a title company, we can trust title is clean. ...

    More BS. Stuff gets missed quite frequently. All that title insurance provides is some comfort in that certain claims can be covered by the title insurer. But there are things listed as exceptions / exclusions in the policy, and those will not be covered. Maybe one can "trust" when there are no exceptions or exclusions ...

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:

    To the thread participants not from PA, namely @Bob B. show this. This phenomenon caused the Philadelphia City Council to enact legislation that forced the Philadelphia Register of Deeds to enact a new policy that they send notification of transfers to the grantors, just in case there was a fraudulent transfer. 

    See page 3 of this link:

    http://www.phila.gov/records/pdfs/bill080424-A.pdf

    A few years ago, those who had property stolen this way thought "there oughtta be a law", and now those who have had property stolen this way realize that the existence of the law hasn't stopped the crime from happening. After all, the law doesn't stop criminals from committing crime, it only stops non-criminals from committing crime. 

    Philly isn't the only place. Some county recorders in CA now have the same policy, for the same reason.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    ...

    Since the deed was not insured by a title company, it won't be recognized as a valid deed. ...

    This is BS. I have received a number of Sheriff's deeds, all of then valid, and none of then were insured by a title company. Title insurance has nothing to do with the validity of a deed. 

    And any deed transfer from decedent to an heir or multiple heirs will normally happen without getting title insurance. Does not make that deed any less valid. 

    No kidding. Title companies do not ignore deeds from uninsured transactions. Nor do they invalidate any deed. They may choose to except it or they may choose to allow to bond around it, but it's their call. I do my own deeds without the benefit of title and escrow all the time.  Then on my re-sale, title may require signatures and/or affidavits in order to insure it.  Title insurers are insurance companies.  They take very little risk. Wild deeds and other title flaws become the burden of the owner/seller.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Joe Boggin:

    ...

    the deed that i have been emailed by the title company i used to pull the title, is digitized, not the original.  its a legit deed recorded by the city.  there are time stamps and dates it was recorded.  ...

    for names sake im making up names here.  the property belongs to David and John. David and john have owned the property for 30 years.  John passed away and the property is in Davids name.  David is the sole owner because when the deed when transfered to the brothers 30 years ago it had a right of survivorship.  if something happened to one brother, the property would belong to the other brother.  the deceased brother who passed away in 2013 is off the deed and off the cities record ...

    Are you 100% certain that the deed EXPLICITLY states "joint tenants with rights of survivorship" or alternatively "tenants in the entirety" or "tenancy by the entireties"?  Because siblings usually want their descendants to inherit their assets before their siblings. So I would expect that "tenants in common" is how these brothers held the property - but there certainly could be exceptions to that, hence why I ask. 

    This is my experience as well.  Siblings often are not vested as joint tenants.  I'd be very curious to see the original deed into the brothers.  I'd want to see the death cert for the supposedly deceased brother too.  Tons of scams out there with vacant property.  But there is nothing yet that proves that it wasn't one of the owners scamming on this one.

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