Property line dispute
Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes
Property line dispute
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Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2012 · 543 posts · 311 votes
6y@Handel Carter, you are not required to do anything at all -unless a court orders you. The burden of proving any claim for any portion of your driveway is entirely upon the Attorney and his client. I'd respond in writing, that you are happy to look over any documentation they have regarding their claim. Take @Henry J. 's advice, "contact the lawyer and ask them to show you the survey, and paperwork showing that you’re using their land. Then from there do your homework to research" . However, I wouldn't feel a need to hire an attorney or surveyor, unless and until a lawsuit is filed. Having an attorney send out a demand letter is a common tactic to scare a party into compliance. Actually filing a lawsuit is more rare and much more expensive. If this is a small slice of property that hasn't been used by the claimant or his predecessors for 30 years, then a lawsuit against you is unlikely.
But if you are sued, then based on what you've posted, you have a valid (legally cognizable) defense. 30 years of continuous use of the property by you and your predecessors constitutes (Adverse Possession and/or Prescriptive Easement). Pennsylvania has recently changed its AP laws making it easier to claim.
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=42&div=0&chpt=55&sctn=27&subsctn=1
Here is a case of adverse possession with facts somewhat similar to yours. From what information is in this post, you likely have nothing at all to worry about.
https://zwick-law.com/2018/01/17/zwick-law-develops-new-adverse-possession-law/#:~:text=What%20is%20Adverse%20Possession%3F&text=Under%20Pennsylvania%20law%2C%20to%20sustain,%2Done%20(21)%20years.
Despite the fact that your new neighbor's attorney's "... letter says my options are return to prior state, (or) .... pay lump sum to purchase or lease it." You have many options. Including calmly doing nothing. The burden is on them. Call the attorney, ask him to send you all documentation supporting his claim, and ask him how he thinks his client could ever prevail against the valid and just claim of your and your predecessors to possession of the driveway for more than 30 years, or at the very least to a prescriptive easement (the disputed land is theirs, but by years of continuous use, you and your predecessors have established the right to use it).
26 Replies
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
I plan on getting in touch with the company that sold it to be to ask about that very thing. The only history I have is the year that I’ve owned the house. The neighbor has been here for 30yrs and said it’s always been as it is.
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
Agreed to all. Thanks for taking your time to respond.
- 6yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
@Handel Carter Who does the lawyer work for? If it is your neighbour and they have been there for 30 years, I can't see why they'd care now. Talk to the city and find out as there is likely either an easement (assuming what the lawyer said is true) or it is grandfathered in.
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
The lawyer works for the company that just purchased the complex behind my neighbor and I. The neighbor couldn’t grasp what I was telling him at first. He said I’ve been here 30yrs and watched it sell 3 times and that’s never changed.
- 6yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votesWhat does the title of the property say? When you purchased and got title insurance was it recorded as an easement or encroachment. If is already an easement you would not need to pay him anything. Look at your loan package and the property description. Easements should be noted in the property description. In any case if you find you need to do something you will likely need a lawyer to handle your part of the transaction.
Another possibility is the survey for his property was done and it could have been done incorrectly. My neighbor had this happen. The surveyor made an error (although this is definitely not as common). - 6yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
@Handel Carter I'm trying to imagine where the driveway is that the neighbour in the back would have a problem with it. I'd talk to the city and if that doesn't help, get a survey done. As I said earlier there is often a way to grandfather it in if it has been there for 30+ years and actively used.
- 6yGary SiverPro MemberFlipper/Rehabber · Orange Park, FL · Member since 2014 · 180 posts · 83 votes
@Handel Carter First thing I would do is order a survey. The $400-500.00 is a lot cheaper than what a lawyer/attorney would cost. Maybe you will find out they are on your property.
- Escrow Officer · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 17 votes6y
@Handel Carter
Contact the company that issued the title insurance policy if you purchased one. They should’ve insured the property lines as well and you might have a claim for any loss or damages. Also some states have right of way easements if you have been using a certain part of land for a certain period of time. If nobody has contested your use For five years or more they may not have a right to stop you from using it now.
- Monterey Park, CA · Member since 2014 · 157 posts · 80 votes6y
@Handel Carter
You can contact the lawyer and ask them to show you the survey, and paperwork showing that you’re using their land. Then from there do your homework to research - hire a surveyor to find out exact boundary if you didn’t receive a survey before closing, and check with city on the exact rule / regulation, and if you purchased title insurance, find out from your RE agent for more details. It may be a while for the lawyer to bring this to court but don’t sit on it. Good luck. Henry
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
Many thanks to you all for taking time out of your day to address my problem.
- Rental Property Investor · Anderson, SC · Member since 2017 · 42 posts · 24 votes6y
@Handel Carter
This can be very costly in legal fees. Make sure you want to get into it legally. Decide how much you want to spend.
Try to approach the situation as a good, helpful neighbor, wanting to collaborate. Bring over some muffins and offer to talk it out with the owner. Find out what the real underlying problem is - why now? Why after 30 years is there a problem? Is it "just the principle of the matter?" (But still - why after 30 years?). Do they need money? Do they need to put an RV there for their down-on-their luck uncle? Do they want or need to sell the home & this prohibits sale? Is there a child that will inherit the property & they want it clarified? Are you as a neighbor doing something new or different and they don't want to see/ hear it so they want a fence? See if you can identify and possibly help them solve the underlying problem. When you speak with this or other neighbors, try keeping your phone in your pocket but using your phone's "voice recording" app feature and record all conversations. This is only for your personal records, not to be "used in court" but it helps you actually remember and refer to every exact thing they said. Then transcribe it into the exact notes. Get them to talk. Be open, listen. Remember to truly think "how can I understand this person's needs so I can try to work out a solution?"
In the end, your personal reputation (and in concert - your business reputation) will be one of helpfulness and fairness. If you must proceed legally, you can still do it in the spirit of fairness and collaboration, to make both parties "win."
Check your state's laws on "squatter's rights" - usually 20 or 30 years. Be aware talking to neighbors that they are leery about taking sides. Be fair. In the spirit of collaboration.
- Real Estate Investor · FL · Member since 2011 · 586 posts · 360 votes6y
Did you order a survey when you purchased the property? If not, you should check your closing packet and make sure you didn't sign a survey waiver. If you did, you aren't going to have much recourse against the title company. If you decided not to order a survey, the responsibility is yours for the situation.
Like others have said, the first thing you should do is order a survey. It could literally be a matter of inches of your driveway on their property (if at all) and a $200 rental of a cement saw and a few hours will solve your problem.
- Real Estate Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2012 · 874 posts · 648 votes6y
“I got a letter from a lawyer that part of my driveway is on his clients property.”
“The neighbor has been here for 30yrs and said it’s always been as it is.”
“The lawyer works for the company that just purchased the complex behind my neighbor and I. The neighbor couldn’t grasp what I was telling him at first.”
@Handel Carter So is your neighbor selling his or her property to the company that just purchased the complex behind the two of you?
- Rental Property Investor · Reinholds, PA · Member since 2019 · 34 posts · 16 votes6y
@Dan Schwartz
I’m with Dan. What’s the relevance of your driveway to the new owners that are behind you? Sounds like your neighbor doesn’t have a problem with anything, so I’m curious as to how this impacts things behind you.
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
It doesn’t impact them at all. Which is why my neighbor and I are confused. Someone or company just purchased the apartment complex behind us. There is nothing but land separating our properties. My neighbor is telling me that nothing has changed in the 30yrs he’s been there. The amount of property that the new owners of the complex are disputing is such a negligible, angled piece of land.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
For starters the only person you need to worry about is the property owner of the land in question.
If I was your neighbor, I would be raising a stink too.
The reason is because of a thing called adverse possession, which basically allows someone to claim title to another persons land if they use it long enough without objection.
Easement agreements are written for this reason, as it allows a neighbor to encroach while preserving property rights.
Maybe the solution in this case will be an easement agreement. Or, maybe you will try to claim title to their land.
- 6yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
@Handel Carter, I think we need a bit of clarification.
I *think* what is happening is that:
1. you own your land, your neighbor owns theirs and your driveway is on neighbor's land.
2. The apartment complex is telling you that your driveway is your neighbor's land - land that the apartment complex does not own?
3. Your neighbor (upon who's land your driveway sits) doesn't care that your driveway is on his land?
4. Why does the apartment complex feel this is their business in any way?
- Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2015 · 20 posts · 2 votes6y
The apartment complex is behind my neighbor and I. We have no issues. The apartment complex is saying that a corner of my driveway is on their land per a survey they did. The complex was just sold to this person. My neighbor is the one that’s been there 30yrs and is saying everything has been the same way it is now. He’s seen my house get sold 3 times and again, nothing like this has ever come up. It’s this new owner of the complex behind us that’s raising this issue.
- Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 708 votes6y
If YOUR driveway is encroaching on the property of the apartment complex then the new owner has every right to demand you remove it or agree to some sort of settlement.
The fact that your property has changed owners 3 times isn't really relevant - just means that none of them (apparently including YOU) bothered to get a survey as part of their purchase. This is NEVER a good idea, for exactly this reason. As the current owner, you are now holding the bag for this situation. Starting with a survey of your property is a good idea (yup, $500 bucks, but frankly, you should have spent that when you purchased the property). Also, you can ask the owner or attorney of the property that is making the claim for a copy of THEIR survey. Chances are they'll be happy to provide that. Then, if both surveys agree that your driveway is indeed located on your neighbor's property, you can negotiate some sort of a deal (or re-route your driveway, if that is possible). Of course, I also agree with the suggestion to search records/deeds to make sure there isn't a recorded easement in place already. - Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2012 · 543 posts · 311 votes6y
@Handel Carter, you are not required to do anything at all -unless a court orders you. The burden of proving any claim for any portion of your driveway is entirely upon the Attorney and his client. I'd respond in writing, that you are happy to look over any documentation they have regarding their claim. Take @Henry J. 's advice, "contact the lawyer and ask them to show you the survey, and paperwork showing that you’re using their land. Then from there do your homework to research" . However, I wouldn't feel a need to hire an attorney or surveyor, unless and until a lawsuit is filed. Having an attorney send out a demand letter is a common tactic to scare a party into compliance. Actually filing a lawsuit is more rare and much more expensive. If this is a small slice of property that hasn't been used by the claimant or his predecessors for 30 years, then a lawsuit against you is unlikely.
But if you are sued, then based on what you've posted, you have a valid (legally cognizable) defense. 30 years of continuous use of the property by you and your predecessors constitutes (Adverse Possession and/or Prescriptive Easement). Pennsylvania has recently changed its AP laws making it easier to claim.
https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=42&div=0&chpt=55&sctn=27&subsctn=1
Here is a case of adverse possession with facts somewhat similar to yours. From what information is in this post, you likely have nothing at all to worry about.
https://zwick-law.com/2018/01/17/zwick-law-develops-new-adverse-possession-law/#:~:text=What%20is%20Adverse%20Possession%3F&text=Under%20Pennsylvania%20law%2C%20to%20sustain,%2Done%20(21)%20years.
Despite the fact that your new neighbor's attorney's "... letter says my options are return to prior state, (or) .... pay lump sum to purchase or lease it." You have many options. Including calmly doing nothing. The burden is on them. Call the attorney, ask him to send you all documentation supporting his claim, and ask him how he thinks his client could ever prevail against the valid and just claim of your and your predecessors to possession of the driveway for more than 30 years, or at the very least to a prescriptive easement (the disputed land is theirs, but by years of continuous use, you and your predecessors have established the right to use it). - Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
@Handel Carter
A few possibilities come to mind, none of them great for you:
1) complex owner wants to expand and having that piece of property will keep them within some sort of zoning rule
2) complex owner wants to buy your properties and cheaply, and will begin a campaign of targeted actions to wear you down.
3) slightly better: their survey (which u have every right to demand) revealed this issue and they are documenting it for any future contingencies. In this case you may be able to negotiate this away by an easement as others have stated or go the adverse possession route as @daviddavido mentioned
I would get a lawyer immediately and have them very politely request documentation. Do not address anything they bring up. If either #1 or #2 are in play then you want to send an immediate signal that you aren’t defenseless. The more local and connected the better.
And take their advice about examining your documentation. Good luck and keep us posted.
- Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 98 posts · 48 votes6y
This might be helpful... in most states you don't need to know you were occupying someone else's land.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/adverse-possession-trespassers-become-owners-46934.html
- Surveyor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 33 posts · 15 votes6y
@Davido Davido has the most thorough & complete response to your issue. It is easy to react quickly & fearfully when you get a letter from a lawyer threatening litigation, especially when it comes to land rights. It is not an area of law that many people have to deal with, nor come across often. There is nothing life threatening, you aren't being arrested or going to jail, so "lawyering up" right away or ordering a survey tomorrow isn't absolutely necessary.
I would start with fact-finding. Calmly gather more information from the lawyer who sent you the letter. Have them send you what they found. Talk to the title company that you used when you bought the house. Do some research of your property with the clerk & recorder of your county. See what the subdivision plat shows. I find they are very helpful when you go into their office & start asking questions about your property. It's all public record. It may take you half a day during work hours, but you wouldn't have to pay a lawyer to do it. There is going to be much more information uncovered as you dig in. These types of things typically move slow.
You very well may find that you need a survey & a lawyer. You may find out that your new apartment complex neighbor has an ulterior motive & was hoping to get some land for very little work. Who knows? Just take some time with gathering facts & see what you uncover. I know it's easier from this side of the computer, but there's no need to panic. Read @Davido Davido 's post. It's very good & he has even done a little bit of initial leg work.
Keep us posted on your situation though. I'd like to hear how this plays out.
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