Has anyone ever used the Velocity Banking Strategy?

Has anyone ever used the Velocity Banking Strategy?

Don SpaffordPro Member
Investor · Idaho Falls, ID · Member since 2016 · 935 posts · 629 votes

I searched for Velocity Banking but did not get anything to return except for some lenders using that name. I just was introduced to this strategy this week and was curious if anyone has done it and what their experience with it was.

If yuo don't know, the basic concept is to use a line of credit from the bank and use it like a checking account so you put yout income into it but get a LOC for like $10k, add in your income for that month, and use the $10k to pay the principal, and then pay your other expenses from that account and as long as you are spending less than what is going in, you build that LOC back up again so you are able to pay back the $10k LOC and then use it again to pay toward the principal. So if you save $1k each month, then every 10 months you can use it again or get an increased LOC and use a larger amount. Doing this strategy gets a 30 yr loan paid off in about 7 years and saved tons of interest. The LOC calculates interest on an average daily balance, so as you have money going into it each month, you are creating less of an amount to charge interest for. So over the course of a year, for that $10k LOC, assuming $4k income and $3k expenses, for a $250k mortgage at 5.25%, you pay about $13k in interest on the mortgage payments (first year of mortgage) vs only a few hundred dollars on the LOC.

The only down-side I can see is opportunity cost. That money that you are saving each month could be deployed to purchase other properties rather than helping to pay off any specific loan. But if you have enough other sources of income and strictly use the rental income for any given property to put back into its own LOC, then theoretically, you can have full 100% cash flowing properties in 7-8 years, depending on how much you are saving each month. You could even use it for your primary residence.

I just bought my first 4 plex this week, literally closed the same day I was shown this strategy, and it blew my mind. I want to use it with this property since it will be cash flowing about $700/mo and if I can get it paid off much sooner and save a lot of money in interest, that would be awesome.

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Rental Property Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2016 · 164 posts · 149 votes
9y

What you have to remember with this Velocity banking stuff is that it really isn't this golden goose brilliant idea that some people make it out to be. If it was, everyone would be doing it. It's also the reason why smart people can't understand what is so "brilliant" about it, because it isn't brilliant or that helpful. People advertise it as a way to pay off a mortgage in 7 years etc blah blah blah it all sounds good to the ill informed or financial illiterate, but in all honesty, you could actually do that with any mortgage you want, you just have to be disciplined. The Velocity banking is more of a way to force you to diligently pay something off quickly. Another trick they like to talk about is how much interest it saves you, they typically show you how much interest you would pay over 30 years on a mortgage and take that entire interest amount as a % of the loan or house value, which is not a true % interest you are paying lol. And of course if you pay off a house in 7 years, you "save" a lot in interest, but you can do the same by paying off a mortgage in 7 years conventionally (albeit you would still pay a little more interest). This Velocity banking is more like one of those credit card hacking people where they have a slightly better rewards package on their credit card, sure they make a few bucks more, but the effort and time it takes to do it is not worth it to some people. Yes the method is probably slightly better than just using a conventional way of paying, but it's not absurdly better or genius. This is why it's so hard to try and understand why it's so much better, it's just not. Trust me, I'm a CPA and work in corporate finance and  I've sat through a demonstration on this.

You make a very good point about opportunity cost with the HELOC and it's a huge detractor from this method. Why would you seriously care to pay down a 4-5% mortgage quickly if you are an investor and can earn 8-20% on your money. I posed this same question to the person on stage in a 40 person presentation on Velocity method and the presenter gave some ridiculous response that didn't make any sense.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad idea or a scam, but rather not some crazy good thing. The benefit from a HELOC is that it allows you to front the payment for a month, which lowers the average amount you owe on your loan throughout the month, and thus the interest you pay is lower, whereas if you didn't have the HELOC, you would have to wait a month to see that decrease in interest. They then say to take that interest savings and put it against your mortgage again and keep doing that and you have it paid off in 7 years. Ok sure, why would I want to do that if my mortgage rate is 4.2% lol, why not take that savings and invest it. They target peoples emotions "pay off your mortgage in 7 years WOW!!!" when in reality it's probably not the smartest financial advice.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 20 votes
    7y

    I am using the strategy right now and it works great for me, I'm with Brian Cardwell, I hope no one else uses the strategy.

    David Strange says it better

    "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again so your paying down the loan but the cupboards are bare. Where as by using the HELOC, aka a debt instrument, you are making an immediate impact and yes that money is gone just like cash but when you place ALL of your Rents received at the HELOC and pay bills from the heloc, the savings shows back up, plus technically on the month you just made the huge payment, you wouldn't need to make a mortgage payment. Granted that slows the payoff but it quickens the cash building so it's roughly a horse a piece. In closing the idea is not a financial gain over cash it's a way to utilize All your income to pay something off faster then you normally would"

    David Strange 

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
    Originally posted by @Jim Tarwater:

    The schools need to teach financial education. The only way this strategy can save you money is if a HELOC is at the same or lower interest rate as the mortgage. Since interest on a HELOC is calculated at the daily rate, you can make payments anytime of the month to reduce the principal, which can save a small amount of interest if the rate is the same as the mortgage. If the HELOC rate is higher, you will lose money every time. I saw some comments from people that have it correct that this method will not save you money.

    Unfortunately that is incorrect.  Let me ask you this, how much interest does a credit card charge?  If you answered roughly 20% or whatever your rate is you are both correct, and incorrect at the same time.  This is because interest only accrues on any remaining balance after the due date has past.  Therefore if you pay your account in full each billing cycle you will never pay a dime in interest but if you let the balance carry forward each month you pay the full 20%.

    Likewise a heloc can be both more expensive, and cheaper depending how you use it.  This method (if set up properly) can theoretically save you some money because the overwhelming majority of the time your heloc is at 0 balance, and therefore is not accumulating any interest.  A mortgage might only be at a 4% rate, but if done properly a heloc at 6% can be cheaper because of the way the interest is calculated.  Helocs only accrue interest during the timeframe that you have drawn against the heloc, and with the velocity strategy you would move ALL of your bills to the 28th of the month so that you only have a draw on your account for a maximum of 3 days out of every month and then you would fully pay off your heloc each month.  If done in this manner, your heloc is only accruing interest on 3 out of 30ish days, so your effective interest rate would be closer to 0.6% and not the full 6%.  If done in this manner it's not difficult to see that a 0.6% interest loan is better than a 4% interest loan.

    To illustrate how it works lets say you earn 5k / month.  Typically this means on the first of the month your bank balance spikes to 5k, and over the course of the next 30 days you spend and pay bills as they come due and your bank balance slowly drops with each bill that you pay until the end of the month where your balance is close to 0.  Then the next month begins and you get paid again and your bank balance spikes back up to 5k and the process repeats itself.  

    Under the heloc method, you would first contact everyone that you owe money to and change the bill due date to the 28th of the month.  This way your cell phone bill, credit card bill, cable bill, etc are all due on the 28th (changing the due date is different than simply deciding to pay the bill on the 28)   Then you would instead put that initial 5k directly towards paying your mortgage so that you have $0 in the bank.  Throughout the month you are now spending no money since you have no bills to pay, any random expenses such as gas or groceries are put on a credit card which you don't have to pay until the 28th of the following month.  When the 28th of the month does come around, you take a draw of 5k against your heloc to pay off all of your bills, and that money will then stay on your heloc for the next 3 days until the first of the month when you get paid and you use that money to pay off your entire heloc and you rinse and repeat the process.  Doing it this way you turned 5k worth of mortgage debt at 4% interest into 5k worth of heloc debt at essentially 0.6% since you only paid interest for 3 days, therefore saving a few dollars in the process.

    While the strategy does theoretically work, it is not without it's many flaws and overall it probably isn't going to be worth it.  It takes a fair amount of work to get the routine set up and change each and every one of your bills such that it's due date is the 28th.  Do you really want to call up your cell phone company and every other company you have a bill with and have them move your bill due date to the latest allowable day of the month which is the 28th?  Even with all of this work it only shaves off roughly 2-3 years from a typical mortgage if I remember my math correct assuming you earn 10k / month (you can find the math earlier in this thread).  This is because since you have to fully pay off the heloc each month (if a balance carries over then you are correct, a 4% mortgage would beat paying the full 6% on a heloc) the amount that you draw on your heloc is limited by your monthly salary.  Most people don't earn anywhere near enough money each month to make the technique worthwhile.  After all, if you could switch a million dollar loan from 4% to 0.6% that would be amazing, but changing 5 or 10k worth of your mortgage into a heloc isn't going to revolutionize your world, especially after accounting for the annual heloc fees, and the hassle of setting it up.  

    Instead of spending countless hours reading and learning about the intricacies of this strategy and implementing it, I would suggest putting in one extra hour of month of overtime at your job and pay down your mortgage by that amount and achieve the same overall result of shaving 2-3 years off your term.

    In short, the method CAN work, but not well enough to make it worthwhile.

     Very well explained. Casual readers should learn to differentiate between the "it CAN work" crowd who provide #'s and the "it Does work" crowd who always say, "trust me I've done it. Have you?"   Numbers people! Do the math. If you can't do the math, have someone who isn't selling something double check the math for you.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mark Andrews:

    I am using the strategy right now and it works great for me, I'm with Brian Cardwell, I hope no one else uses the strategy.

    David Strange says it better

    "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again so your paying down the loan but the cupboards are bare. Where as by using the HELOC, aka a debt instrument, you are making an immediate impact and yes that money is gone just like cash but when you place ALL of your Rents received at the HELOC and pay bills from the heloc, the savings shows back up, plus technically on the month you just made the huge payment, you wouldn't need to make a mortgage payment. Granted that slows the payoff but it quickens the cash building so it's roughly a horse a piece. In closing the idea is not a financial gain over cash it's a way to utilize All your income to pay something off faster then you normally would"

    David Strange 

     "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again"

    That's not true though. The equity can typically be borrowed against at a later date. There might be a benefit to taking out a HELOC from the get go, but let's not oversell it with false information.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:

    Jim you are incorrect. It is ok though. If everyone understood how this works and used it, the banks wouldn't allow it.

     BS sales line alert! "Banks HATE him! Find out how Brian Cardwell does it using this one simple trick."

    Anyone else ever notice how R. Marcella Poole pipes in around the same time with zero helpful information?

    Oh yeah, I'll say it again. This CAN work, if you have a lot of money you don't intend to invest elsewhere (probably $20K-50K+ to make it worth it). Or... you could most likely just take out a HELOC when you need it!

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:

    Jim you are incorrect. It is ok though. If everyone understood how this works and used it, the banks wouldn't allow it.

     BS sales line alert! "Banks HATE him! Find out how Brian Cardwell does it using this one simple trick."

    Anyone else ever notice how R. Marcella Poole pipes in around the same time with zero helpful information?

    Oh yeah, I'll say it again. This CAN work, if you have a lot of money you don't intend to invest elsewhere (probably $20K-50K+ to make it worth it). Or... you could most likely just take out a HELOC when you need it!

     Lets not sling false information Jeremy Z. I am not selling anything. The math works if done  correctly. Can it be done with out a heloc? Yes it can. Do most people do it ? No. If you have not used this method correctly you wouldn't know that it works. Just because YOU don't understand how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work. It is just a tool to help those who understand. Don't Bash things you don't understand. There are correct calculation in this two year old Post. Learn from it. If you choose not to learn from it, don't confuse the issue here with false accusations. Again I am not selling anything or using some kind of trick. The math works. Can it be done a different way? Yup it can. This is just another option that works well.

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Mark Andrews:

    I am using the strategy right now and it works great for me, I'm with Brian Cardwell, I hope no one else uses the strategy.

    David Strange says it better

    "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again so your paying down the loan but the cupboards are bare. Where as by using the HELOC, aka a debt instrument, you are making an immediate impact and yes that money is gone just like cash but when you place ALL of your Rents received at the HELOC and pay bills from the heloc, the savings shows back up, plus technically on the month you just made the huge payment, you wouldn't need to make a mortgage payment. Granted that slows the payoff but it quickens the cash building so it's roughly a horse a piece. In closing the idea is not a financial gain over cash it's a way to utilize All your income to pay something off faster then you normally would"

    David Strange 

     "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again"

    That's not true though. The equity can typically be borrowed against at a later date. There might be a benefit to taking out a HELOC from the get go, but let's not oversell it with false information.

     Just wondering what happens to the cash once you apply it to the loan? Some would say it's gone until you save up more or until you access with another loan. 

    If you use the heloc you still have immediate access. Pretty simple.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oak Hills, CA · Member since 2018 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:

    Jim you are incorrect. It is ok though. If everyone understood how this works and used it, the banks wouldn't allow it.

     BS sales line alert! "Banks HATE him! Find out how Brian Cardwell does it using this one simple trick."

    Anyone else ever notice how R. Marcella Poole pipes in around the same time with zero helpful information?

    Oh yeah, I'll say it again. This CAN work, if you have a lot of money you don't intend to invest elsewhere (probably $20K-50K+ to make it worth it). Or... you could most likely just take out a HELOC when you need it!

  • Rental Property Investor · Oak Hills, CA · Member since 2018 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Jeremy- In the interest of time I'm simply stating that it works-as it is working for me. I do not need to add 'additional helpful information' to this post because, as it's been stated previously, this is a two-year-old post filled with examples,  information and facts.  No need for me to restate...selling nothing here.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:

    Jim you are incorrect. It is ok though. If everyone understood how this works and used it, the banks wouldn't allow it.

     BS sales line alert! "Banks HATE him! Find out how Brian Cardwell does it using this one simple trick."

    Anyone else ever notice how R. Marcella Poole pipes in around the same time with zero helpful information?

    Oh yeah, I'll say it again. This CAN work, if you have a lot of money you don't intend to invest elsewhere (probably $20K-50K+ to make it worth it). Or... you could most likely just take out a HELOC when you need it!

     Lets not sling false information Jeremy Z. I am not selling anything. The math works if done  correctly. Can it be done with out a heloc? Yes it can. Do most people do it ? No. If you have not used this method correctly you wouldn't know that it works. Just because YOU don't understand how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work. It is just a tool to help those who understand. Don't Bash things you don't understand. There are correct calculation in this two year old Post. Learn from it. If you choose not to learn from it, don't confuse the issue here with false accusations. Again I am not selling anything or using some kind of trick. The math works. Can it be done a different way? Yup it can. This is just another option that works well.

     I stand by my statement that you used a BS sales line.

    And you keep saying I don't understand... That's the beauty of this financial stuff - it's just math and you can model it out and compare scenarios without actually "doing it" and understand what the outcomes will be. Don't sell the approach as something you have to do to understand. That's bogus too.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Mark Andrews:

    I am using the strategy right now and it works great for me, I'm with Brian Cardwell, I hope no one else uses the strategy.

    David Strange says it better

    "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again so your paying down the loan but the cupboards are bare. Where as by using the HELOC, aka a debt instrument, you are making an immediate impact and yes that money is gone just like cash but when you place ALL of your Rents received at the HELOC and pay bills from the heloc, the savings shows back up, plus technically on the month you just made the huge payment, you wouldn't need to make a mortgage payment. Granted that slows the payoff but it quickens the cash building so it's roughly a horse a piece. In closing the idea is not a financial gain over cash it's a way to utilize All your income to pay something off faster then you normally would"

    David Strange 

     "The reason to use the Heloc as opposed to cash is that the cash is gone and can never be used again"

    That's not true though. The equity can typically be borrowed against at a later date. There might be a benefit to taking out a HELOC from the get go, but let's not oversell it with false information.

     Just wondering what happens to the cash once you apply it to the loan? Some would say it's gone until you save up more or until you access with another loan. 

    If you use the heloc you still have immediate access. Pretty simple.

     It was the "and can never be used again" part of that quote I took issue with. Pretty simple.

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:

    Jim you are incorrect. It is ok though. If everyone understood how this works and used it, the banks wouldn't allow it.

     BS sales line alert! "Banks HATE him! Find out how Brian Cardwell does it using this one simple trick."

    Anyone else ever notice how R. Marcella Poole pipes in around the same time with zero helpful information?

    Oh yeah, I'll say it again. This CAN work, if you have a lot of money you don't intend to invest elsewhere (probably $20K-50K+ to make it worth it). Or... you could most likely just take out a HELOC when you need it!

     Lets not sling false information Jeremy Z. I am not selling anything. The math works if done  correctly. Can it be done with out a heloc? Yes it can. Do most people do it ? No. If you have not used this method correctly you wouldn't know that it works. Just because YOU don't understand how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work. It is just a tool to help those who understand. Don't Bash things you don't understand. There are correct calculation in this two year old Post. Learn from it. If you choose not to learn from it, don't confuse the issue here with false accusations. Again I am not selling anything or using some kind of trick. The math works. Can it be done a different way? Yup it can. This is just another option that works well.

     I stand by my statement that you used a BS sales line.

    And you keep saying I don't understand... That's the beauty of this financial stuff - it's just math and you can model it out and compare scenarios without actually "doing it" and understand what the outcomes will be. Don't sell the approach as something you have to do to understand. That's bogus too.

     I am not selling any approach. I was trying to be nice about it. I will be blunt now. Whatever math formulas you are using or process you are using is wrong.  I can say this with complete confidence because I have used this method myself. So there is nothing that you can say or show me that will convince ME that it doesn't work. The proof for me is in the action (pudding). It works if done properly.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y

    Where did I say using a HELOC "doesn't work"? I just pointed out how one of your comments looks an awful lot like the "banks HATE this" sales tactic that has taken on a bit of a meme status.

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    Where did I say using a HELOC "doesn't work"? I just pointed out how one of your comments looks an awful lot like the "banks HATE this" meme that has become a common sales tactic on financial websites.

     Fair enough . So that there is no misunderstanding, does your "math" show it works or doesn't work? I don't want to misunderstand your statements again

    To make this work , one only needs to be responsible and bring in more than they spend. The maths supports it and action supports it.

    My comments is in no way is  a sales pitch. I am speaking the truth. If everyone did this then the banks would change the rules so that it couldn't be done. The banks would lose many thousands of dollars.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    Where did I say using a HELOC "doesn't work"? I just pointed out how one of your comments looks an awful lot like the "banks HATE this" meme that has become a common sales tactic on financial websites.

     Fair enough . So that there is no misunderstanding, does your "math" show it works or doesn't work? I don't want to misunderstand your statements again

    To make this work , one only needs to be responsible and bring in more than they spend. The maths supports it and action supports it.

    My comments is in no way is  a sales pitch. I am speaking the truth. If everyone did this then the banks would change the rules so that it couldn't be done. The banks would lose many thousands of dollars.

    Using the example in your spreadsheet, it doesn't work as well as paying the same total amount each month ($2,375) toward your mortgage and only using the HELOC in case of emergency. That's due to the HELOC rate (7.5%) being higher than the mortgage rate (5%). Do we agree on that point?

    My issue with the supporters of this method is the lack of nuance. I can go on a home building forum and state that you can frame a house with a hammer and nails. It works. That doesn't mean it works better than using a nail gun. If I keep repeating that I have done it with a hammer, that still doesn't prove that a nail gun wouldn't be better.

    Most of the examples set forth by the supporters of this method (yours included) fail to compare their scenario to paying the same total monthly amount toward just the mortgage. It's like saying the hammer works without discussing the merits of a nail gun.

    I think your point about banks changing the rules is highly debatable. Would they stop offering 15-year mortgages if more and more people started using them?? That debt instrument can save people thousands on interest too.

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y

    I will agree to the question in your first paragraph.

    But the question wasn't which method was the best method. The question was does the velocity banking method work? Let us not confuse the issue here. The answer is yes and it works well. There are several reasons how/ why that were discussed earlier in this thread.  

    So based on what you have just presented you would agree that it works? 

    You hammer and nails example is an apples and oranges comparison.

    The debate about the what the banks would do, is a waste of time to me.  I would suggest that neither of us have any inside influence or info on banking regulations. If I am wrong about that then I stand corrected. Then I would ask you to please enlighten us.

    So we can agree it works, there are no tricks to it, and the comparison was with doing velocity or not doing it?

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
    Originally posted by @Jim Tarwater:

    The schools need to teach financial education. The only way this strategy can save you money is if a HELOC is at the same or lower interest rate as the mortgage. Since interest on a HELOC is calculated at the daily rate, you can make payments anytime of the month to reduce the principal, which can save a small amount of interest if the rate is the same as the mortgage. If the HELOC rate is higher, you will lose money every time. I saw some comments from people that have it correct that this method will not save you money.

    Unfortunately that is incorrect.  Let me ask you this, how much interest does a credit card charge?  If you answered roughly 20% or whatever your rate is you are both correct, and incorrect at the same time.  This is because interest only accrues on any remaining balance after the due date has past.  Therefore if you pay your account in full each billing cycle you will never pay a dime in interest but if you let the balance carry forward each month you pay the full 20%.

    Likewise a heloc can be both more expensive, and cheaper depending how you use it.  This method (if set up properly) can theoretically save you some money because the overwhelming majority of the time your heloc is at 0 balance, and therefore is not accumulating any interest.  A mortgage might only be at a 4% rate, but if done properly a heloc at 6% can be cheaper because of the way the interest is calculated.  Helocs only accrue interest during the timeframe that you have drawn against the heloc, and with the velocity strategy you would move ALL of your bills to the 28th of the month so that you only have a draw on your account for a maximum of 3 days out of every month and then you would fully pay off your heloc each month.  If done in this manner, your heloc is only accruing interest on 3 out of 30ish days, so your effective interest rate would be closer to 0.6% and not the full 6%.  If done in this manner it's not difficult to see that a 0.6% interest loan is better than a 4% interest loan.

    To illustrate how it works lets say you earn 5k / month.  Typically this means on the first of the month your bank balance spikes to 5k, and over the course of the next 30 days you spend and pay bills as they come due and your bank balance slowly drops with each bill that you pay until the end of the month where your balance is close to 0.  Then the next month begins and you get paid again and your bank balance spikes back up to 5k and the process repeats itself.  

    Under the heloc method, you would first contact everyone that you owe money to and change the bill due date to the 28th of the month.  This way your cell phone bill, credit card bill, cable bill, etc are all due on the 28th (changing the due date is different than simply deciding to pay the bill on the 28)   Then you would instead put that initial 5k directly towards paying your mortgage so that you have $0 in the bank.  Throughout the month you are now spending no money since you have no bills to pay, any random expenses such as gas or groceries are put on a credit card which you don't have to pay until the 28th of the following month.  When the 28th of the month does come around, you take a draw of 5k against your heloc to pay off all of your bills, and that money will then stay on your heloc for the next 3 days until the first of the month when you get paid and you use that money to pay off your entire heloc and you rinse and repeat the process.  Doing it this way you turned 5k worth of mortgage debt at 4% interest into 5k worth of heloc debt at essentially 0.6% since you only paid interest for 3 days, therefore saving a few dollars in the process.

    While the strategy does theoretically work, it is not without it's many flaws and overall it probably isn't going to be worth it.  It takes a fair amount of work to get the routine set up and change each and every one of your bills such that it's due date is the 28th.  Do you really want to call up your cell phone company and every other company you have a bill with and have them move your bill due date to the latest allowable day of the month which is the 28th?  Even with all of this work it only shaves off roughly 2-3 years from a typical mortgage if I remember my math correct assuming you earn 10k / month (you can find the math earlier in this thread).  This is because since you have to fully pay off the heloc each month (if a balance carries over then you are correct, a 4% mortgage would beat paying the full 6% on a heloc) the amount that you draw on your heloc is limited by your monthly salary.  Most people don't earn anywhere near enough money each month to make the technique worthwhile.  After all, if you could switch a million dollar loan from 4% to 0.6% that would be amazing, but changing 5 or 10k worth of your mortgage into a heloc isn't going to revolutionize your world, especially after accounting for the annual heloc fees, and the hassle of setting it up.  

    Instead of spending countless hours reading and learning about the intricacies of this strategy and implementing it, I would suggest putting in one extra hour of month of overtime at your job and pay down your mortgage by that amount and achieve the same overall result of shaving 2-3 years off your term.

    In short, the method CAN work, but not well enough to make it worthwhile.

    So Zimmerman, 

        I love your lengthy explanation of how velocity banking works. Based on what you have written, your understanding of the method is not very good. 

     Let's address the elephant in the room. If most people were responsible with their finances they would not spend more than or equal to what the make. They would spend less. 

    Spending less than what you make is a major component of this method.

    What helocs have yearly fees? None of mine never have had fees I had to pay. The other thing is  it takes about two weeks to set one up. Not much if a hassle. It seems to me you are saying put an extra $100 a month to my mortgage to save 2 or 3 years on that mortgage. 

    Why would I do that if I can used the velocity method and shave 20 years or more  off my mortgage. Then I don't have to work that extra hour a month. 

    I believe there is an example of the true way of using this method earlier in the the thread.  

    Plain and simple it works with $ 500 a month spread which will see you approx . 15 years. A$1000 a monthextra with will save about 20years. Use the heloc and it won't feel like you are doing it. the

  • Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 396 posts · 995 votes
    7y

    @Brian Cardwell  I don't doubt that you paid off your mortgage in 10 years or less, what I am saying and what others are saying is that without a doubt, the reason that you paid your mortgage off early was because you made significant additional payments towards your principle.  You don't need a heloc to make additional payments, in fact by using the heloc in the manner that you suggest actually hurt you and slowed down your progress since you are leaving a balance on the account each month and therefore paying a higher interest.  If you paid off your mortgage in 10 years, its entirely possible that you would have paid it off in 9 yrs 6 months if you had gotten rid of your heloc entirely.  Your heloc COST you money, it is not what helped you.  Making additional payments above and beyond the minimum required is what helped you pay it off faster.  The method I suggest does not involve making additional payments, that is the big difference that you seem unable to comprehend as we have had this exact same conversation numerous times in this thread.  

    There are people out there that are smarter than the both of us.  Smart people who work in the finance industry managing billions of dollars worth of assets who's sole job it is to squeek out the smallest percentage gain for their clients.  If there was some super secret trick to pay off a mortgage significantly faster without spending any additional money these smart people would have found it, and would be using it on a daily basis for all of their clients.  The fact that this isn't happening should give you a clue that there is no trick, instead the only 'trick' is you paying more than the minimum towards your mortgage payment each month.  

    Lets assume a house with a 1k/month mortgage payment.  The standard scenario this home gets paid off in 30 years.  In my scenario I still only pay 1k/month but due to the way I structure it, I am able to pay it off in 27 years without spending an extra dime each month.  In your method you instead decide to pay 2k/month and pay it off in 10 years.  Of course you are going to pay it off faster because you are spending more money towards the loan.  That isn't a trick.  My method puts the standard amount towards the loan and still manages to pay it off faster, that is the trick.  If you really wanted to you could just as easily make overpayments using my method but most people don't want to make overpayments because it reduces their cashflow to nothing.

    Paying more each month isn't some super secret trick.  Every single person knows that the more money you put towards a loan the faster you will pay off that loan.  That's like me saying, "hey guys, I have a trick to cut 30 years off your mortgage....just pay cash!"

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    Where did I say using a HELOC "doesn't work"? I just pointed out how one of your comments looks an awful lot like the "banks HATE this" meme that has become a common sales tactic on financial websites.

     Fair enough . So that there is no misunderstanding, does your "math" show it works or doesn't work? I don't want to misunderstand your statements again

    To make this work , one only needs to be responsible and bring in more than they spend. The maths supports it and action supports it.

    My comments is in no way is  a sales pitch. I am speaking the truth. If everyone did this then the banks would change the rules so that it couldn't be done. The banks would lose many thousands of dollars.

    Using the example in your spreadsheet, it doesn't work as well as paying the same total amount each month ($2,375) toward your mortgage and only using the HELOC in case of emergency. That's due to the HELOC rate (7.5%) being higher than the mortgage rate (5%). Do we agree on that point?

    My issue with the supporters of this method is the lack of nuance. I can go on a home building forum and state that you can frame a house with a hammer and nails. It works. That doesn't mean it works better than using a nail gun. If I keep repeating that I have done it with a hammer, that still doesn't prove that a nail gun wouldn't be better.

    Most of the examples set forth by the supporters of this method (yours included) fail to compare their scenario to paying the same total monthly amount toward just the mortgage. It's like saying the hammer works without discussing the merits of a nail gun.

    I think your point about banks changing the rules is highly debatable. Would they stop offering 15-year mortgages if more and more people started using them?? That debt instrument can save people thousands on interest too.

    You're being too generous when you say it works.  The hammer "works" at its stated function, which is to drive a nail slowly and with great effort.  I know of no one that claims that a hammer is a magic trick that accomplishes driving a nail better than a nail gun.  By contrast, the velocity banking strategy claims to be some super secret sauce that pays off your mortgage faster than just paying off your mortgage.  So judging it by its stated function, it doesn't work at all.

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:

    @Brian Cardwell  I don't doubt that you paid off your mortgage in 10 years or less, what I am saying and what others are saying is that without a doubt, the reason that you paid your mortgage off early was because you made significant additional payments towards your principle.  You don't need a heloc to make additional payments, in fact by using the heloc in the manner that you suggest actually hurt you and slowed down your progress since you are leaving a balance on the account each month and therefore paying a higher interest.  If you paid off your mortgage in 10 years, its entirely possible that you would have paid it off in 9 yrs 6 months if you had gotten rid of your heloc entirely.  Your heloc COST you money, it is not what helped you.  Making additional payments above and beyond the minimum required is what helped you pay it off faster.  The method I suggest does not involve making additional payments, that is the big difference that you seem unable to comprehend as we have had this exact same conversation numerous times in this thread.  

    There are people out there that are smarter than the both of us.  Smart people who work in the finance industry managing billions of dollars worth of assets who's sole job it is to squeek out the smallest percentage gain for their clients.  If there was some super secret trick to pay off a mortgage significantly faster without spending any additional money these smart people would have found it, and would be using it on a daily basis for all of their clients.  The fact that this isn't happening should give you a clue that there is no trick, instead the only 'trick' is you paying more than the minimum towards your mortgage payment each month.  

    Lets assume a house with a 1k/month mortgage payment.  The standard scenario this home gets paid off in 30 years.  In my scenario I still only pay 1k/month but due to the way I structure it, I am able to pay it off in 27 years without spending an extra dime each month.  In your method you instead decide to pay 2k/month and pay it off in 10 years.  Of course you are going to pay it off faster because you are spending more money towards the loan.  That isn't a trick.  My method puts the standard amount towards the loan and still manages to pay it off faster, that is the trick.  If you really wanted to you could just as easily make overpayments using my method but most people don't want to make overpayments because it reduces their cashflow to nothing.

    Paying more each month isn't some super secret trick.  Every single person knows that the more money you put towards a loan the faster you will pay off that loan.  That's like me saying, "hey guys, I have a trick to cut 30 years off your mortgage....just pay cash!"

    I paid off my mortgage in 10 years.  Every time I made an extra principal only payment, I slapped myself in the face.  If only you would slap yourself in the face once a month, you too could pay off your mortgage early.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y

    @Brian Cardwell

    @Brian Cardwell

    It works in certain specific circumstances.

    There are LOTS of people using tricks to promote/sell it to far too broad of an audience (check out Youtube, for example).

    I absolutely disagree with this. If I came to a forum asking about a certain method, and the respondents knew of a better method, I would very much appreciate them speaking up about it. You acknowledged that your example costs MORE than just paying toward the mortgage directly (due to a higher HELOC rate). That's useful information to people considering this option. Much better than, "yeah, it works".

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    @Brian Cardwell

    @Brian Cardwell

    It works in certain specific circumstances.

    There are LOTS of people using tricks to promote/sell it to far too broad of an audience (check out Youtube, for example).

    I absolutely disagree with this. If I came to a forum asking about a certain method, and the respondents knew of a better method, I would very much appreciate them speaking up about it. You acknowledged that your example costs MORE than just paying toward the mortgage directly (due to a higher HELOC rate). That's useful information to people considering this option. Much better than, "yeah, it works".

     I agree with what you say. If one ask about what is now called velocity banking, that is the question I am going to answer. I can not assume they want me to go though all the methods that may cost more or less. More information is not always best. It can sometimes cause confusion.

    I agree that using a heloc cost a small amount more but I disagree that it isn't better. 

    Either way, I eliminated my mortgage this way so I can speak on it with absolute confidence. 

    As far as the tricks ...they are using tricks to sell it. The tricks are in the sales pitch not the process. The process is sound.  

    Good chat JZ. Wishing you much success.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    @Brian Cardwell

    @Brian Cardwell

    It works in certain specific circumstances.

    There are LOTS of people using tricks to promote/sell it to far too broad of an audience (check out Youtube, for example).

    I absolutely disagree with this. If I came to a forum asking about a certain method, and the respondents knew of a better method, I would very much appreciate them speaking up about it. You acknowledged that your example costs MORE than just paying toward the mortgage directly (due to a higher HELOC rate). That's useful information to people considering this option. Much better than, "yeah, it works".

     I agree with what you say. If one ask about what is now called velocity banking, that is the question I am going to answer. I can not assume they want me to go though all the methods that may cost more or less. More information is not always best. It can sometimes cause confusion.

    I agree that using a heloc cost a small amount more but I disagree that it isn't better. 

    Either way, I eliminated my mortgage this way so I can speak on it with absolute confidence. 

    As far as the tricks ...they are using tricks to sell it. The tricks are in the sales pitch not the process. The process is sound.  

    Good chat JZ. Wishing you much success.

     Agreed, good discussion. Much success to you too!

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:

    @Brian Cardwell  I don't doubt that you paid off your mortgage in 10 years or less, what I am saying and what others are saying is that without a doubt, the reason that you paid your mortgage off early was because you made significant additional payments towards your principle.  You don't need a heloc to make additional payments, in fact by using the heloc in the manner that you suggest actually hurt you and slowed down your progress since you are leaving a balance on the account each month and therefore paying a higher interest.  If you paid off your mortgage in 10 years, its entirely possible that you would have paid it off in 9 yrs 6 months if you had gotten rid of your heloc entirely.  Your heloc COST you money, it is not what helped you.  Making additional payments above and beyond the minimum required is what helped you pay it off faster.  The method I suggest does not involve making additional payments, that is the big difference that you seem unable to comprehend as we have had this exact same conversation numerous times in this thread.  

    There are people out there that are smarter than the both of us.  Smart people who work in the finance industry managing billions of dollars worth of assets who's sole job it is to squeek out the smallest percentage gain for their clients.  If there was some super secret trick to pay off a mortgage significantly faster without spending any additional money these smart people would have found it, and would be using it on a daily basis for all of their clients.  The fact that this isn't happening should give you a clue that there is no trick, instead the only 'trick' is you paying more than the minimum towards your mortgage payment each month.  

    Lets assume a house with a 1k/month mortgage payment.  The standard scenario this home gets paid off in 30 years.  In my scenario I still only pay 1k/month but due to the way I structure it, I am able to pay it off in 27 years without spending an extra dime each month.  In your method you instead decide to pay 2k/month and pay it off in 10 years.  Of course you are going to pay it off faster because you are spending more money towards the loan.  That isn't a trick.  My method puts the standard amount towards the loan and still manages to pay it off faster, that is the trick.  If you really wanted to you could just as easily make overpayments using my method but most people don't want to make overpayments because it reduces their cashflow to nothing.

    Paying more each month isn't some super secret trick.  Every single person knows that the more money you put towards a loan the faster you will pay off that loan.  That's like me saying, "hey guys, I have a trick to cut 30 years off your mortgage....just pay cash!"

     Mr Zimmerman,

    It is quite obvious you didn't read what my comments were about this. Those who say this doesn't work are wrong. Those who just pay extra to your principle are correct. Now one has to decide what is the most comfortable way for them to pay extra to their priciple. Pay all their money from their bank acct and see zeros there until payday or use a heloc to do it at a small cost. (OPM.) Either way will accomplish the same goal. Which is better? That depends on the individual and their risk tolerance. 

    I believe the original question was about velocity banking and how it works.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 230 posts · 257 votes
    7y

    @Brian Cardwell

    I'm not trying to open up another can of worms here... but I have another question and I am genuinely curious to hear your thoughts.

    We have established that funneling your funds through a HELOC will cost more* than paying those funds directly to your mortgage. If you were to do this again, would you still funnel your funds through the HELOC, or would you only use the HELOC if you needed access to the money? And if the former, why?

    *This assumes the HELOC has a higher rate of interest than the mortgage, as in Brian's example.

  • Brian CardwellPro Member
    Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

    @Brian Cardwell

    I'm not trying to open up another can of worms here... but I have another question and I am genuinely curious to hear your thoughts.

    We have established that funneling your funds through a HELOC will cost more* than paying those funds directly to your mortgage. If you were to do this again, would you still funnel your funds through the HELOC, or would you only use the HELOC if you needed access to the money? And if the former, why?

    *This assumes the HELOC has a higher rate of interest than the mortgage, as in Brian's example.

     Knowing what I know now, I would ....wait for it....try it the way you discussed. If I felt comfortable with it I would continue to do it. But if I felt uncomfortable I would go back to the way I did it. The peace of mind may be worth the small cost.

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