Tenant threatens to withhold rent?

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Tenant threatens to withhold rent?

David P.
Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes

Just came across a late night call with one of my tenants. His family has been living there over a year and I would consider them good tenants. They warned me before that the front tenants dogs (pitbulls) are sometimes unleashed and unintended.

I already warned the front tenant about this issue but today it blew up. The duplex is situated front and back. One of the young kids in front left the backyard gate open and the dogs were running around inside the rear tenants garage when they had the door open. They do have a young daughter so that is the rear tenants fear. Basically he had enough and called me and said if the dogs are not gone by tomorrow he will stop paying rent. This felt very unreasonable at the moment withe able to remedy a solution. 

After some back and forth we came up with a solution where I place a lock on the gate and make the gate inaccessible. The front tenant asked for one more chance so they are on board of not using that gate anymore and instead use the other side gate that faces the street for any pet duties. The rear tenant seem content and everything seem worked out. It didn't sit well with me afterwards. I understand his issue and he has brought it up before but threatening me with rent seem not right. Can he actually win in court with his reasons? He told me he didn't mind going to court in front of judge so alot of things were said tonight. I did discover from front tenant he had a medical emergency 2 days ago and was in hospital for irregular heartbeat where he collapsed at home and ambulance came. His first day back and this situation happened so I can understand the stress. 

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Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
4y
Quote from @David P.:

Just came across a late night call with one of my tenants. His family has been living there over a year and I would consider them good tenants. They warned me before that the front tenants dogs (pitbulls) are sometimes unleashed and unintended.

I already warned the front tenant about this issue but today it blew up. The duplex is situated front and back. One of the young kids in front left the backyard gate open and the dogs were running around inside the rear tenants garage when they had the door open. They do have a young daughter so that is the rear tenants fear. Basically he had enough and called me and said if the dogs are not gone by tomorrow he will stop paying rent. This felt very unreasonable at the moment withe able to remedy a solution. 

After some back and forth we came up with a solution where I place a lock on the gate and make the gate inaccessible. The front tenant asked for one more chance so they are on board of not using that gate anymore and instead use the other side gate that faces the street for any pet duties. The rear tenant seem content and everything seem worked out. It didn't sit well with me afterwards. I understand his issue and he has brought it up before but threatening me with rent seem not right. Can he actually win in court with his reasons? He told me he didn't mind going to court I'm front of judge so alot of things were said tonight. I did discover from front tenant he had a medical emergency 2 days ago and was in hospital for irregular heartbeat where he collapsed at home and ambulance came. His first back and this situation happened so I can understand the stress. 

Okay, he can't withold rent for the reason stated. It's unreasonable to expect this to be resolved in 24 hours. Don't sweat the small stuff.

You do have a duty to protect those kids though and you've been notified of the danger. Do sweat the big stuff. Pitbulls have been known to kill people. Your insurance may or may not cover pitbulls. It depends on the policy. 

People rarely follow through with threats of lawsuits. Those that do want to follow through rarely find an attorney willing to take the case unless it is a "solid" case. In court, he would have to prove damages. It doesn't sound like there are any damages at this point. What would he sur about and what are his damages? He is not understanding what a lawsuit is.

If both tenants can safely leave the property in the event of a fire with the gate locked, then there shouldn't be any problem locking the gate.

I would just lock the gate. I'd also issue a written warning that the dogs are sometimes left unattended and that is not acceptable and is in violation of the rental agreement and keep a copy.

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  • Edwin Park
    NY · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 11 votes
    4y

    Your issue is the tenant with dogs.  Not the tenant threatening withholding of rent who is reasonably upset.  Missing the forest for the trees.  

    1.  Take whatever precautions necessary to protect other tenants and public. 

    2. Check to make sure you have proper insurance coverage for liability in case of harm or death by the dogs.  

    2.  Require your tenants with the dogs to get similar coverage. 

    3.  Terminate the lease or evict as soon as the moratorium is over.  You can't trust them as they brought in dogs without your consent.   They could do it again even though the dogs are gone now.  

    Your leg bite, though unfortunate, is not the worst case scenario.  The mauling and death of the front tenant's daughter would have been and could still be.  You got lucky.  Wishing you a speedy recovery!  đź™Ź

    3Reply
  • David P.
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes
    4y

    I guess my foot was the sacrificial lamb. In the whole mess. The rear tenant paid all up after finding out dogs are gone. The front tenant family is now traumatized a bit and probably scaried I'm going file suit. They don't own any assets though except a smoke shop that deals with mostly cash. Not sure if worth pursuing that while I can't evict. It could be a wash in financial gains between trying to sue for whatever they own vs not getting paid $4k a month rent from them for 6 months to a year.

    0Reply
  • Wesley W.
    Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:

    I guess my foot was the sacrificial lamb. In the whole mess. The rear tenant paid all up after finding out dogs are gone. The front tenant family is now traumatized a bit and probably scaried I'm going file suit. They don't own any assets though except a smoke shop that deals with mostly cash. Not sure if worth pursuing that while I can't evict. It could be a wash in financial gains between trying to sue for whatever they own vs not getting paid $4k a month rent from them for 6 months to a year.


    You can't "evict", but would they accept a notice of termination?  You may be able to leverage their gross negligence to get your property back and re-rent it to someone better and restore harmony.

    Check with you attorney, but perhaps you could serve a termination notice during the eviction moratorium, even though they do not have to abide by it because of the legislative idiocy.

    1Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Wesley W.:

    Yep!

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:

    They don't own any assets though except a smoke shop 

    Perfect. And you rented to them why again.....?

    0Reply
  • David P.
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @David P.:

    They don't own any assets though except a smoke shop 

    Perfect. And you rented to them why again.....?


     Most renters out there don't own a home per se. They passed the mysmartmove app and income met my standards. They have cars but dunno how that matters in law suit. If they had renters insurance which I told them to get I be all over that or some other way of a sure pay out 

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    You missed my point. The 'smoke shop' indicates a certain type that I would prefer not to have as a renter. And next time, get proof of renters insurance.

    These are horrible renters, just get them out as soon as you legally can and do it better next time...you'll be so happy to have good tenants, imagine all the stress you won't have to deal with :-)

    1Reply
  • Wesley W.
    Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:

    If they had renters insurance which I told them to get I be all over that or some other way of a sure pay out 

    This unfortunate situation that resulted in your injury is an opportune time to take away some lessons and tighten up your lease and operations. For a SFR, and especially for dog owners, I would STRONGLY urge you to require renter's insurance, and list you and your entities as "additional interest" on the policy.  This as part of the on-boarding process.  No possession until you have documention!  99% of renters you make a "recommendation" to will not do it.  Remember when you were a kid living in your parents' house:  "my property, my rules."

    0Reply
  • Ethan Hanes
    Real Estate Agent · Westlake Village, CA · Member since 2021 · 64 posts · 41 votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:
    Quote from @Nancy P.:

    I just want to address your OP where you said  his threatening to not pay rent "did not sit right".  Please let that go.  Men who feel their tiny daughters are in danger say whatever it takes to make him feel his child is safe again.   I'm shocked at the eviction laws currently in place.  I'd at least call Animal Control.  Maybe they can get rid of the dog where you can't, or cite them for not monitoring the dog well.  

     So worst possible outcome happened today. While putting on the lock the dogs attacked me and I had to go-to ER. Pretty gruesome. At this point I'm lost for words. They assured me the dogs are gone and won't be there anymore. 


     What!!! This is awful!

    Be glad this happened to you instead of the child! Could have had a different outcome. So sorry this happened to you, it shouldn’t happen to anyone. You never know if a dog is friendly or vicious. So sad. 

    Hope you were able to get this resolved. Ugh!

    Ethan

    0Reply
  • James Hamling
    Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:

    I guess my foot was the sacrificial lamb. In the whole mess. The rear tenant paid all up after finding out dogs are gone. The front tenant family is now traumatized a bit and probably scaried I'm going file suit. They don't own any assets though except a smoke shop that deals with mostly cash. Not sure if worth pursuing that while I can't evict. It could be a wash in financial gains between trying to sue for whatever they own vs not getting paid $4k a month rent from them for 6 months to a year.


     NO! No, no, no, no, no. David, this is not an ok situation, not acceptable in any form or fashion, No your leg is not a sacrificial lamb, not ok. This was not some 1-off accident, this was ongoing repetitive negligence and if you don't do something guess what, there going to go right back to it and it's going to happen again. No, your owed on this, and I argue it's your civic duty to FULLY utilize all remedies and actions at your disposal. I don't care if there greatest valuable is a pet-rock, SUE! 

    Fact is, nothing will be learned or remembered if nothing is paid, because it's not of any cost to them at all at this time, zero. So they got rid of a dog, whoopdie-doo, anyone who has an animal like that and makes those situations doesn't give a flip to begin with. 

    David, you owe yourself, you owe your leg! Take action, stop feeling any guilt, get pist! I'd garnish there wages for the next 45 years if that's what it takes because guess what, they will not forget when they are paying for it. 

    Your lucky David you realize that right? If you hit that ground, that leg would have become your face or throat. What if you were feet closer to the ground, like a kid? I guarantee, until they pay a price, it will happen again, zero doubt. 

    And I say this as a dog-person. I have had attack dogs as well, aggressive breeds. Hell I have one now that I tell people YES she WILL bite, and has. It's a lot of work dealing with such animals, I don't take it lightly, I carry the responsibility of it, I take the actions to protect and inform people. I should say I do a lot with rescues and yes have been an animal trainer for many many years. The one person bit, I warned him, he refused to listen, insisted he was ok, then as I warned, pow, got a small bite. Still, took me years working with that dog and now she is a therapy dog. Point is, I am "the" dog guy and I am begging you to take action, hold them accountable. They are the problem and will continue to do so until it really hits them. 

    2Reply
  • Johnny Lau
    Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 46 votes
    4y

    Give notice to front tenants and dogs, easy fix.

    0Reply
  • Debbie C.
    Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 74 votes
    4y

    @David P. 

    Very sorry this happened to you. Think very carefully about what you are going to do next to deal with this situation. I agree with @James Hamling not to let it go. So what if they say the dogs are gone, maybe in a month they are back. 

    When there are no consequences for the tenants actions, they will continue to ignore the lease and do whatever they feel like doing. Talk to your Insurance agent. Speak to an attorney, give them all the information and see what your options are, then decide.

    Best of luck

    1Reply
  • David P.
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Debbie C.:

    @David P. 

    Very sorry this happened to you. Think very carefully about what you are going to do next to deal with this situation. I agree with @James Hamling not to let it go. So what if they say the dogs are gone, maybe in a month they are back. 

    When there are no consequences for the tenants actions, they will continue to ignore the lease and do whatever they feel like doing. Talk to your Insurance agent. Speak to an attorney, give them all the information and see what your options are, then decide.

    Best of luck


     I talked to 3 attorneys so far and they all said going after tenants is not worth it if they don't have renters insurance or assets. Right now we are looking into claim against my landlord policy depending if language in there allows it and if not that my 1M commercial umbrella policy which covers my rentals.

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    @David P. It looks bad, are you expecting to make a full recovery?  and was the dog turned in to animal control? 

    0Reply
  • Jonathan Hankins
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2022 · 37 posts · 28 votes
    4y

    This might be the best thread on BP right now. I saw this post before the pictures, and had to delete the comment I wrote because it was a little too harsh - but it looks like you got the message anyway.

    You had a property with a dangerous, loose dog, endangering a toddler... But the title of your post was (and still is) "Tenant Threatens To Withhold Rent". I'm sure the last few hours have helped you clear up which tenant was your problem.

    Wishing you a speedy recovery, and thankful that the child next door is safe! Regardless of which route you go - that has to be reported to animal control. If that dog mauls a child at its next home, you won't want to be the person who let it happen.

    0Reply
  • David P.
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Colleen F.:

    @David P. It looks bad, are you expecting to make a full recovery?  and was the dog turned in to animal control? 


    Yes animal services called me that night to report the incident. Not surprisingly they said since there were no prior report of issues then they can not take the animal and it's a civil case. Matches in line with everything else in California. Need 3 strikes until your out.

    im not too sure about my recovery but will get a follow up visit next week. I'm lucky it wasnt my archilles. My foot is swollen and numb . Very gross but I'll have some more bad boy scars to show later.

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    @David P. Again, sorry for your problems. I get the feeling that you are missing something, so please tell me if I'm mistaken.

    You have created a situation where there are no consequences for bad/illegal behavior. And I get the feeling that you are not going to change, (?)

    Yes you live in a F'ed up state, but they did not make this happen, it seems you are not in control of your own property....

    Again, sorry if I am mistaken.....

    1Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    @David P. hope you have a speedy recovery. The dog though .... geez. 

    1Reply
  • Russ B.
    Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 319 posts · 330 votes
    4y

    They don't own any assets.. except a smoke shop? Meaning they own a store?

    That sounds like an asset to me, unless I'm misreading..

    0Reply
  • Wesley W.
    Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @David P.:

    Unless you are a property owner, in which case you are not allowed any latitude before being eviscerated by your government.  Pretty disgusting what your state is doing to hard-working small business owners and tax payers there.  Our governess here in NY idolizes your state "leader", so we're a close second here in the Constitutional trampling department.

    Hope you get well soon.

    3Reply
  • David P.
    OP
    Member since 2020 · 404 posts · 235 votes
    4y

    I talked to 3 lawyers yesterday and one said it is a 50-100k payout easy if there was insurance claim to go after. I don't think I can make a claim on myself for my own insurance and just to prove how important renters insurance is. They all said similar dialogue that from experience going after tenants is a dead end and judgement may not get collected. 

    0Reply
  • Jonathan R McLaughlin
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Wesley W. So you can’t evict but you have just been told it’s a civil case and they own a functioning store? Cash or not they have assets to protect.

    So you file. You can absolutely be reasonable and drop that case if they move out. See where I’m going with this???? That’s a lot more leverage than an eviction for gods sake.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the difficulties of your position but you took me aback when you seemed to be wavering and saying “oh man it would cost me so much with them not paying rent” and it seemed like you were thinking of keeping them.

    You do have leverage if you act now.

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jonathan R McLaughlin:


    I have a lot of sympathy for the difficulties of your position but you took me aback when you seemed to be wavering and saying “oh man it would cost me so much with them not paying rent” and it seemed like you were thinking of keeping them.

    What I'm thinking after this thread is that maybe some people should not be in the landlord business...

    0Reply
  • Jonathan C.
    Realtor · King of Prussia, PA · Member since 2010 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    4y

    I'm surprised there's no money considering they have a shop, even though it probably is cash. But if the attorneys say it's not worth it, could you sign a contract stating you won't sue for your injuries if they vacate by X date? Not sure if that gets around the ordinance. Effectively compensation for your injury is them leaving.

    0Reply
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