Pit Bulls, Horses, and Poor People
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Real estate investor · Las Vegas · Member since 2013 · 798 posts · 171 votes
12y@Duncan Taylor
I dont want to call anyone out in this group of posts, but I'll just say you might be losing some money with those "rules" I guess you could make some leap that someone w/ visible tats could affect...? Not really sure. If they are making a good living and visible tats are not a factor in their workplace, not sure why it matters. Same goes for pits. I understand no dogs for various reasons (hair, fur, wear, accidents, destruction, smells, etc.), but to single out pits just seems ignorant to me. If this is what some people say they base their decisions on, I am nervous about what they are not saying. For me, it makes more sense to base judgements off income, credit, criminal history, judgements, etc. I am not saying some tenants dont raise red flags, just dont get the pit bull and visible tat grouping.
64 Replies
- Specialist · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 639 posts · 176 votes12y
I had a property with a bunch of tenants I couldn't get to move. I built a dog run and brought in a few pit pulls and my friend Pete moved in as well - he loves Pit Bulls. So do I. The tenants got together, signed a petition and all gave their notice to quit. They even hired a Lawyer, so it was all done right.
I just love Pit Bulls!
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Hm......while I can't cite you the law, I was always told that in Atlanta you have to process the applications in the order that you receive them. Anything else leaves you open to potential discrimination lawsuit.
The way some landlords get around that is by putting up a sign-in sheet and putting 1 name at the top. So, if the first person that shows up also gives you an application , you can say that there was someone ahead of them, but that you don't know if they'll check out. But that list should be there at the showing.
That was set up because of so much discrimination against Blacks in good ol' Atlanta and to protect them getting turned down.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
As to pitbulls - yes, they're one of 11 breeds that most insurance companies refuse to insure.
But, it's really more about the owners of these dogs. Dogs have a natural hierachy in their packs and when you take in a dog, someone has to be alpha. If we, as human, aren't doing the right things that an alpha does, the dog will have to take that role. It's in their DNA, for the survival of the pack.
Those 11 breeds tend to be much more sensitive to that and will take the alpha role much quicker than a Golden Retriever might. And part of the Alpha's job is protecting the pack - i.e. eliminating any potential threat. So, the owner of one of those dogs has the responsibility to take control. That doesn't mean hitting or yelling etc.
Most people don't know that much about it (I learned it the hard way, when I adopted a 1-year old German Shepherd and knew nothing about Alpha behavior. I went through hell and back and learned a ton), so the dog does what he's supposed to.
Also, in Atlanta the problem is that most people who have pitbulls are attracted to the breed because of their negative reputation. They want to be perceived as fierce and mean. So, having a pitbull and making it mean by maybe tying it up outside (So, that it no longer has the choice between 'flight or fight' as defense) fits right into their image. And those are the dogs that end up biting someone, which exacerbates the perception.
A pitbull brought up right is incredibly loving and sweet and loyal
- Real Estate Investor · Spokane, WA · Member since 2012 · 13 posts · 16 votes12y
Michaela, thanks for that post!
Sadly its ignorance and idiots that create the stigma around the pits. We should never forget that the problem is with the owners. I must confess the stigma of certain breeds saddens me. I have a rescued pit. In fact I got her from an underground organization that tries to get to these dogs before they are placed in the fighting ring. Our fur-baby was slated to be a "bait dog". That is the dog that they starve and maim so that the other dogs can train to kill.
She is a beautiful animal that is actually scared of my cat. Pits are the most emotionally sensitive of the breeds and that is why they are easily trained to be aggressive. It is no different of an abused child growing up to have violent tendencies.
I understand that investors need to protect their assets. I have a friend that has requested proof of obedience training and asked who their vet is in the application. The call to the vet is very revealing as to the care that the animal receives.
Regular shots, and checkups indicates a responsible pet owner and since HIPPA laws do not apply to animals, the vet can speak frankly of the temperament of the animal simply add this step to your standard screening processes. That will allow you to screen the owners without discriminating on the breed.
I hope that helps some.
Aaron Anderson
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Hm......while I can't cite you the law, I was always told that in Atlanta you have to process the applications in the order that you receive them. Anything else leaves you open to potential discrimination lawsuit.
First, EVERYTHING you do leaves you open to a discrimination lawsuit. The fact that you are picking one over another for ANY reason, opens you up to someone claiming you made that choice illegally. The question is two-fold. Was it done illegally and can it be proved? The best protection is to comply with the law and not discriminate illegally.
The process you site above could help you demonstrate you are not engaging in illegal discrimination but I challenge you to find anything codified in GA requiring you to process applications in the order received. I can use any legal criteria to eliminate a potential tenant from consideration at any point in the process. Yes, even before I call their references or pull their credit. Which, I might add, I am not required to do either of those. Granted it is really stupid to not do a full background on anyone you are going to hand the keys to, but I don't have to do that on every applicant. And, contrary to what you may have heard, as long as I do not engage in illegal discrimination I am NOT required to follow the exact same process with each applicant.
It makes it much easier to defend against a claim of illegal discrimination if I take the exact same steps, in the exact same order with every applicant, but that is all it does.
As for the 'trick' of putting a name at the top of the application list, in the real world of lawyers and discovery, that fig leaf won't protect anything.
The best way to not be successfully sued is to treat people the way you would like to be treated. In all my years of running companies and owning investment property I have never been successfully sued. I have been served. I have spent money on discovery. I have been in civil hearings before a judge and I have even gone to trial on civil matters, but not once was a judgement against me, my partners or any firm I ran been rendered.
The ultimate fact is if the ethic mix of those living in your rentals is roughly equivalent to the ethic mix of the population in the area and you are not doing anything to try to steer that mix one way or another, an illegal discrimination claim based on skin color would be very hard to prove. The same is true for all of the other protected categories.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yDuncan,
I agree with you and should treat everyone the same and landlords should vet future tenants, and the tenants should vet the landlords to see if it is a fit?
Joe Gore - Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Duncan,
I agree with you and should treat everyone the same and landlords should vet future tenants, and the tenants should vet the landlords to see if it is a fit?
Joe GoreI agree. Though the tenant's ability to vet the landlord is very limited.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yDuncan,
When you say very limited, please explain.
Joe Gore - Homeowner · Phelan, CA · Member since 2010 · 23 posts · 4 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
And we're not supposed to profile because it's politically incorrect. Sometimes I'm not sure if our politicians are naive or ignorant, or ...... you fill in the blank.
Sigh................
At least being a pit owner isn't a protected class, yet.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Duncan,
When you say very limited, please explain.
Joe GoreHow do you propose a tenant vet their prospective landlord? They can't run the same kind of background checks the landlord runs on the tenant. If there is a property manager involved, even if they are an employee of the landlord, the options may be even more limited and the manager could be changed at any time.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yDuncan,
When I am hired to check out a landlord, I get the owner of the property no matter what they are hiding behind, insurance info, liens, who the property is financed with, DOB, SSN, owners address, drivers license info, credit card info, how many loans in the owner's name or business name and date open and monthly payments, type of auto in owner's names, bankruptcy.
I only this for lawyers.
Joe Gore
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes12y
I am one of the biggest animal lovers out there HOWEVER from running a business and investment standpoint it does not make sense to allow these animals in your buildings. Any type of animal can cause damage just like humans can. To swing odds in your favor as an investor you play the percentages and possible outcomes.
This is what insurance carriers do all day long. If they made an exception for every hard luck case they would be out of business. I personally think large animals DO NOT belong in apartment buildings. They need space to move around in and not feel confined. An owner that is not putting that type of animal in an optimal environment is doing the animal a huge disservice and putting their needs ahead of the animals. If you love the animal enough you will put what is best for them ahead of yourself.
Sadly in our society many "want what they want when they want it" and to heck with the consequences or who it is best for.
- Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Duncan,
When I am hired to check out a landlord, I get the owner of the property no matter what they are hiding behind, insurance info, liens, who the property is financed with, DOB, SSN, owners address, drivers license info, credit card info, how many loans in the owner's name or business name and date open and monthly payments, type of auto in owner's names, bankruptcy.
I only this for lawyers.
Joe Gore
Sure, sure. And no doubt the average tenant has the means to hire a lawyer to hire someone to do an investigation like that. :rolleyes:
- 12yBryan L.Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votesOP
I've heard it said before that "it's not the breed, it's the owners". OK then, not only do I not allow pit bulls, but I also don't allow their owners to rent from me. There's plenty of other potential tenants out there.
With horses, the phone call usually goes something like this: We're looking for a house with land. Need at least 5 bedrooms. We have 12 horses, so we need at least 5 acres. And it's got to have a barn and water. No nasty ponds though, we need running water like a creek or a spring. And it needs to be under $100,000 and we need owner-financing cause we ain't got no money.
- Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
My husband and I own two SFRs in an area where there are a lot of pit bull owners. We had a tenant once who got a pit bull without our knowledge or permission, and she and the dog were gone quickly.
Our rental condos have associations that only allow pets under 20 pounds. My issue with pits or any other large dog is that if my contractor has to go into the property to repair something and the owner isn't home, does the dog know the contractor has permission to come in? It's a danger to him, and even though Chihuahuas may have nastier temperments than pit bulls, they're hardly able to cause serious damage to an adult.
And a new twist I recently heard from an applicant was that her part pit bull, 50 pounds, was a certified service dog.
- Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
Haha @Jon Klaus ;) Or maybe the service is "reducing one's rental opportunities".
- Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Duncan,
When I am hired to check out a landlord, I get the owner of the property no matter what they are hiding behind, insurance info, liens, who the property is financed with, DOB, SSN, owners address, drivers license info, credit card info, how many loans in the owner's name or business name and date open and monthly payments, type of auto in owner's names, bankruptcy.
I only this for lawyers.
Joe Gore
Why would a landlord provide you with any of this information instead of just accepting a different applicant? Looking at that list, there's not one item there that I would give to a tenant.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Duncan,
When I am hired to check out a landlord, I get the owner of the property no matter what they are hiding behind, insurance info, liens, who the property is financed with, DOB, SSN, owners address, drivers license info, credit card info, how many loans in the owner's name or business name and date open and monthly payments, type of auto in owner's names, bankruptcy.
I only this for lawyers.
I hope you realize that you're taking the risk of being taken to court by the landlord for pulling an unauthorized credit report? There's a $ 1,000 fine for an unauthorized pull and if it's done with all 3 credit reporting agencies that'll be $ 3,000 in small claims caourt.
- Buy and Hold Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 102 votes12y
A lot of fallacious logic and misinformation in this thread (foster and amateur dog trainer here). First off: there's no such thing as a naturally human aggressive dog. This is a learned behavior. Meaning every dog on every THIS DOG KILLS list would be a completely docile, sweet, affectionate dog if properly raised and trained.
Second off: it's a fairly useless statistic to say pit bulls cause more deaths than any other type of dog, or more attacks. It's like saying Toyota Camrys cause more deaths than Mini Coopers. True? Yes. Useful? No. Reason? There's a ****load more of them on the road!
Third: the thing you do have to be cautious of, with any large breed dog, is that if they're raised wrong and do end up aggressive, the resulting bite can be a lot worse, simply because of their size and power.
Because of #3, I don't know that I'd rent to a pit bull owner even if my insurance allowed it. The only exception would be if me and my dog met the dog and my dog signed off on it. She's a lot better at picking up potential issues with other dogs than I'll ever be. But, I have fostered pits and I certainly would again. They're incredibly sweet dogs. It's a crying shame that they've gotten adopted by this hip hop culture as status symbols, and been the central breed in most dog fighting rings for years. The bad press because of those two are the reason why most people are afraid of them, but none of it is the fault of the breed, and all is the fault of the owners.
Of course, we're talking about investments here, so if it makes business sense to discriminate against dog owners, I'm all for it. :)
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yI see you don't know anything about skip tracing I never said I run a credit report. Rob all I need is the property address, and I am sure you will not lie to a future tenant about what the owner's name is.unless you are hiding something or dishonest.
Joe Gore - Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Michaela Graham,
I see you don't know anything about skip tracing I never said I run a credit report. Rob all I need is the property address, and I am sure you will not lie to a future tenant about what the owner's name is.unless you are hiding something or dishonest.
Joe GoreIt is a long and contorted road from an apartment complex in Nashville to the partnership we setup decades ago and the trust I originally created in the 1980s. Could it be done? Probably. Would it be easy to do? Not on your life. Would the average tenant have the means to do it? Are you kidding? They rent for a reason for goodness sake!
Large investing partnerships, like the one I sold out of in 2012, do not hold properties in pass-through entities or in people's names. Nor do they engage in vanity naming of their entities.
When we purchased a property it went into a C corp. It could be one set up specifically for that property if the acquisition was large enough or posed some kind of unique risk. You wouldn't need to do a skip trace to find out the owner of the property, the local tax assessor has that. You wouldn't need to do a skip trace to find out who the President/CEO, Secretary, Registered Agent and in most cases the Treasurer of the corporation are, the local Secretary of State in that state would have all of that. You could probably dig up where the corporation has in-state bank accounts without too much effort. But, beyond that you would never get the names of the shareholders of a privately held corporation without the cooperation of that corporation or a court order.
Interestingly, if you were able to get the shareholders of that front line corporation, you'd find yourself chasing another entity in the food-chain.
I am not claiming the ultimate owners can't be found. It is all a cat and mouse game and if someone is willing to spend enough time, effort and money, I have no doubt they could eventually work their way up to the ultimate partners, or at least our family trusts. Since no one in their right mind is the trustee of their own trusts, you would have a big problem with that next step to the beneficiaries without a court order.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yPlease go back and read what I said. I said I only do this for lawyers never said for tenants, but tenants have a right to know who they are renting from, and landlords have a right to know they are renting to. I agree some owners are hard to find, but because they think, they can shuffle the paperwork 10 times and get lost in the shuffle want work because they always leave a paper trail.
Joe Gore - Real Estate Investor · Member since 2013 · 866 posts · 487 votes12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Duncan Taylor,
Please go back and read what I said. I said I only do this for lawyers never said for tenants, but tenants have a right to know who they are renting from, and landlords have a right to know they are renting to. I agree some owners are hard to find, but because they think, they can shuffle the paperwork 10 times and get lost in the shuffle want work because they always leave a paper trail.
Joe GoreTenants do not have any such right. They have to right to know where and how to pay their rent, how to contact someone about maintenance or a problem and where to send or serve legal notice and to live in the property with quiet enjoyment as long as they pay the rent and follow the terms of the lease or rental agreement.
They have no more right to "know who they are renting from" than you have a right to know the details of every single GE stockholder just because you bought one of their light bulbs.
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