Investor · Renton, WA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 1 vote
I have a tenant whom broke her lease and wants her deposit back. She is claiming her husband whom did not live with her, and was not on the lease, received orders to go over seas. She has decided to accompanying him and is demanding that we refund her deposit because of these orders.
Anyone run into this before?
I have a suspicion they knew of the orders before the wife moved into our property. ( would this make a difference?)
The husband whom was not on the lease, lives in another state. (would this make a difference?)
P.S. After requesting a copy of the orders, they produced a letter from his commanding officer requesting they be released from their lease.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y
You can verify active duty status of a service member on the Defense Manpower Service Center web site. The SCRA modified the old Soldier and Sailor Relief Act 1940. Any service member who receives orders for a PCS may terminate a lease or is entitled to modification of debts to lower interest. The lease or mortgage modification applies to a primary residence.
In this case the spouse has leased a second home, while the Act extends to debts of the servicer member and immediate family, a second home wouldn't qualify unless the lease is over a certain amount (like over $2,000 a month).
Debts are not terminated but limited and remain in place and any modification reverts back to the original obligation and is payable.
My question is that if he has been in the states why wasn't she with him? Did she even mention him on the lease? This could have been a marital separation and she has decided to return, in which case she was on her own with the intent to leave the primary residence. But, it could be something else but it's still a second home.
I get the idea, from what's said, that she can terminate here lease due to his orders, so it does sound like she is playing the system. I'd bring the issue up of a second home and get her to change her attitude from demanding to asking. Then I'd hold her to clean up fees if any under the lease and when possession is given, I'd play it by ear, give her the money back and send her on her way feeling she got by lucky with your good graces. I might even have her pay for an ad to lease it as a damage in breaking the lease if she agreed through negotiation, if it gets to be a big deal say so long.
Just saying, if there was a bit of finagling going on, she needs a bit of a lesson, if she was really innocent in this matter and they had no notice two months ago of getting orders, that's different. But if the knew and she moved there and then changed her mind that's different. You can see when a unit deploys from the DMSC, if they leased after the PCS was issued it's on them.
I'd also say they are probably kids, and I'd not stick them either, but they may have a lesson coming, that's all. All IMO. :)
Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I would consult a lawyer on this one. If the husband were part of the lease, it'd be a no-brainer. Since he's not on the lease and did not live with the wife in the apartment, I don't see how military orders would apply.
If they are not living together due to the husband being based somewhere else, that might be a sticky situation. Pretty sure they still have to give you proper notice regardless, so that should buy you at least 30 days to find a new tenant. Does the lease state the deposit will not be returned if the lease is broken?
Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
@Mason Kelley How much was the deposit? If you're in a position to refund the deposit, I'd do it, just because I know our military families struggle financially - though you probably aren't legally required to do it.
Investor · Renton, WA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 1 vote
12y
Mike, the lease does state that if it is broken they forfeit the deposit. ( just not sure how that pertains to the military.)
Karen, As a veteran myself, and understand the hardships of being in the military. My concern is that she never had the intention of staying the 12 months and this was a convenient way to get the deposit back. She stayed 2 months. So after moving in with first, last, and security. She uses her first and last, moved out, and never made a rent payment, and now wants the deposit back. Just sounds a little fishy to me.
All being said... I will most likely send out the check.
Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I'm not a lawyer, so no legal advice, but it seems to me your legal agreement is with the person on the lease and no one else, especially if she never mentioned the husband and he does not live with her. If they wanted the option of using his military status to end her lease early even though they lived separately, he should have made sure his name was on the lease from the start. Just did some research on this, and military.com says:
First, for purposes of protection under the SCRA, the lease must be signed by the servicemember, or on behalf of the servicemember (by the use of a power of attorney.) If a spouse enters into a lease on their own name, without the servicemember, the SCRA does not apply. This is a really important distinction. Let’s say Sergeant Jones is deployed, and while he is gone, the lovely Mrs. Jones moves apartments. If she chooses to put the lease in her name alone, which is often a lot easier, they then lose all the protections in the SCRA. But taking the extra effort of getting a Power of Attorney and using it to put Sergeant Jones on the lease, the family is now protected if they receive PCS orders.
So, if this were my unit, I'd offer her the option of either finding a new qualified tenant to take over her lease and let her out once I've qualified them, or come up with an early termination fee that covers my having to turnover so quickly. Sounds to me like she is not acting in good faith with you, and so I would not go out of my way to be accommodating.
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
In this case, you suspect, but aren't sure. So unless you have some strong evidence, I would just give them the benefit of the doubt since it's military related.. tough situation to be in.. for both of you I'm sure.
Sometimes you're better off doing what makes sense, rather than what can technically tried to be done from a legal perspective.. IMHO.
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
assuming the house is left clean/ready to rent after 2 months! THey still have the responsibility to hold up their end, especially when you are giving them the benefit of the doubt. I also had some tenants who were in a different exit situation like this, and I made sure they agreed to have it clean and ready to show before they move out so I could have it rented before they left.. Had 1 day vacancy..
Investor · Delaware, OH · Member since 2013 · 224 posts · 64 votes
12y
Yes, that sounds fishy. Personally, I would refund the deposit if the place is left clean and show-ready, as @J. Martin suggests. Otherwise, deduct cleaning costs, etc. as you normally would. Ultimately, you won't lose any sleep knowing you cut a break to a serviceman, no matter the circumstances.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y
You can verify active duty status of a service member on the Defense Manpower Service Center web site. The SCRA modified the old Soldier and Sailor Relief Act 1940. Any service member who receives orders for a PCS may terminate a lease or is entitled to modification of debts to lower interest. The lease or mortgage modification applies to a primary residence.
In this case the spouse has leased a second home, while the Act extends to debts of the servicer member and immediate family, a second home wouldn't qualify unless the lease is over a certain amount (like over $2,000 a month).
Debts are not terminated but limited and remain in place and any modification reverts back to the original obligation and is payable.
My question is that if he has been in the states why wasn't she with him? Did she even mention him on the lease? This could have been a marital separation and she has decided to return, in which case she was on her own with the intent to leave the primary residence. But, it could be something else but it's still a second home.
I get the idea, from what's said, that she can terminate here lease due to his orders, so it does sound like she is playing the system. I'd bring the issue up of a second home and get her to change her attitude from demanding to asking. Then I'd hold her to clean up fees if any under the lease and when possession is given, I'd play it by ear, give her the money back and send her on her way feeling she got by lucky with your good graces. I might even have her pay for an ad to lease it as a damage in breaking the lease if she agreed through negotiation, if it gets to be a big deal say so long.
Just saying, if there was a bit of finagling going on, she needs a bit of a lesson, if she was really innocent in this matter and they had no notice two months ago of getting orders, that's different. But if the knew and she moved there and then changed her mind that's different. You can see when a unit deploys from the DMSC, if they leased after the PCS was issued it's on them.
I'd also say they are probably kids, and I'd not stick them either, but they may have a lesson coming, that's all. All IMO. :)
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
in our Texas Association of Realtor lease, the lease can be terminated with 30 days notice with PCS orders provided that they are on the lease. Was any notice given or was this "after the fact". I would check the military clause in your lease and act accordingly but if they are not on the lease I personally would handle the situation the same as any broken lease and refund the deposit minus expenses incurred to rent the property and in accordance with the agreement signed by the parties on the lease
@Karen Margrave As a veteran I think it's a tad insulting to say military families struggle because many of them/us are fiscally responsible. Are all landlords rich ?
Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
@Greg H. If you'll go back and read my post, it says "if you are in a position to do so",. Nobody has more respect for the military than I do, having had my first husband killed in Viet Nam long ago. The original poster was speaking of an active duty serviceman that is being deployed overseas, I'd give them grace.
REALTOR® · Bastrop, TX · Member since 2013 · 324 posts · 191 votes
12y
Greg Hall the TAR lease does not require the service member to be on the lease in order to utilize the military exemption; although I agree the Texas Property Code does. The way it's written (TAR Lease) someone who is or becomes....a dependent of a service member may terminate the lease. It's more than required by law but that's how it's written......
Mason, your lease may be irrelevant. Check federal law, state law, and local code/ordinance, and if this particular situation isn't addressed then fall back on the lease. But if its addressed in any of those three other areas then it doesn't matter. Either way, a letter from his CO isn't enough "proof," require an actual copy of the orders and/or visualize the original.
Sun Prairie, WI · Member since 2013 · 150 posts · 69 votes
12y
I know a military family and it is not uncommon for some military families to enter into a one year lease already knowing that they have orders and will be breaking the lease. That said, many of them cannot find a lease for only two months. It sucks that they aren't upfront, but I can understand where they are coming from too.
As prior service, I used the act to break several leases going back and forth to the Mid East. I really appreciated my landlords taking care of me. I was at Fort Campbell so they had it down.
The act does get abused though. I had some subordinates try to pull a fast one on a local landlord who happened to work on post (base) in the ID card section. I was up there getting a new ID card and he happened to be the one serving me. He asked me if such and such got off to his new assignment ok after he became aware of where I worked. Seems they had provided the landlord with a falsified letter. Blindsided to say the least. I think my head actually came off my shoulders. Heads rolled and the landlord was properly compensated.
I would call the base and get the number of commander that signed the letter. Don't use the number on the letter. Call and verify the information in the letter. If everything is valid I'd help however I could. If not, I'd crush them because they make it hard on service members actually needing relief.
My husband is active duty military. We have buy and hold rentals. Most of our tenants are military members. Although we love them, we do ask to see the orders. We check them to make sure that the length of their orders match up to their contract.
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
@Karen Margrave No big deal as I was referring to the stereotyping of the military as "struggling financially" as I have always lived on less than I made and one of my best friends that I met in the Army has made himself into a millionaire through his service and working as a mailman. Several years ago, I ran a travelling AAU Girls Basketball team and the only parents I had trouble collecting from was a prominent dentist in town. He had a house that was 5 times more expensive than mine along with 2 BMW's in the driveway but struggled to pay the $200 a month for their daughter to play while another mother worked at Walmart and always paid on time. I would pay for her daughters hotel and meals when we traveled because I knew what a struggle it was for her to pay. I am a big believer in Grace. In this case, "if" it is how the tenant presented it the orders could be emailed in 5 minutes along with a marriage cert.....just doesn't smell right
@Patrick Connell I stand corrected as I needed to get out a lease and reread and it does say "or" dependent. It does state that the 30 day notice required does not begin until after the next months rent is due.....so it seems that the notice required could be as much as 59 days as I read it ? But the clock does not begin ticking until orders and notice are received
Involved In Real Estate · Biloxi, MS · Member since 2013 · 76 posts · 30 votes
12y
@Elizabeth Colegrove are you saying you check their orders bringing them to town before renting to them?
This is something that I started doing. We have an AF base in Biloxi which also happens to be a training base. One of my first tenants broke their lease after just a few months because his advance training was complete. He knew he was not going to be staying the full term of the lease.
I still try to work something out if I can but I definitely like to plan for their departure in advance.
Investor · Milpitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 95 posts · 12 votes
12y
If the service member was not on the lease, the SCRA does not apply. I personally would not give back the deposit because you had it written in your lease that way for a reason, to deal with vacancy and turnover. The minimum that the SCRA requires is 30 days notice that starts at the end of the next month. The reason for that is because military units have been given direction to get orders cut at least 60 days before a move. If you weren't given notice and she stayed the full 2 months, and your lease states deposit is forfeit, keep it. If they want to fight you just bring up the fact you could get a judgement.
That all being said, there can be extenuating circumstances say where a member was deployed and as he comes back gets orders to go overseas. In this case I would want to sit with the commander and understand the timeline to know it was out of the wife's hands other than her getting a power of attorney to put the service member on the lease. But then I would bring up the SCRA requirements not being met.
This is partly a judgement call and partly understanding what the real story is. Figure out the truth and then act according to your business plan.
REALTOR® · Bastrop, TX · Member since 2013 · 324 posts · 191 votes
12y
Greg Hall notice can be anywhere from 31-59 days.
Anytime notice is given in the TAR lease, the termination of the lease becomes effective the last day of the month following when notice was given. For example, if I give notice on Dec. 3 then I have till Jan. 31 to move out and am responsible for Jan. rent in its entirety. Similarly, if I give notice on Dec. 28, then I have till Jan. 31 to move out and am responsible for all of Jan. rent.
Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
@Greg H. I'm not stereotyping anyone. That's great that you were able to manage so well while in the military, and that your friend became rich, however; that's not typical. Lower pay grade personnel, with families, have a very hard time, and they do struggle. Cuts are being made to their wages, commissaries are being closed, and rents are going up. Many in the military in those situations rely on food stamps to get by, as referenced in this article.http://goo.gl/3gvVAD
I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the military, etc. I'm sorry you are so offended by my viewpoint, but, as I stated, I'd return the deposit if I were in the position to do so, and call it a token of appreciation for the military families and their sacrifice.
Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
@Account Closed
Yes we ask for the orders and read them. I do 95% of all the work. My husband is in charge of one thing and that is reading orders :) We LOVE our military tenants, they are great long term tenants. They are also human . We have had people try to break for reasons that is not covered under the military clause. I just found that I go over everything before the lease starts.