Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 2 votes
Hello people of BP,
I have a 4-plex in Mesa AZ that is two-storied. One of the second floor tenant installed tile floor on her unit - as the result, the floor bowed down due to the weight of the tiles. I tried to file a claim to my insurance company, but they call it as "wrongful installation" thus denying the claim.
How do you deal with situation like this? Do you ask your tenant to contribute? I got an estimate from my property manager that the cost of repair will be north of $1.5K >__<.
Contact a local home inspector, there should be plentiful in Meza.
Get them to check on this specific issue.
Just as @Account Closed & @Matthew Paul suggested, you do not need further liabilities from your second floor tenant fell through the floor & hit the guy on the first floor.
No, I was not aware of the installation. My property manager came up with this a couple months after I purchased the property. This issue was not reported by the property inspector prior to my purchase. So I assume it happened sometime after the inspection.
I believe the tile was not professionally installed.
For one, the tenant must ask permission in order to alter or make any changes to the property. Second, if/when the tenant moves out, when you conduct your final walk through inspection technically you can state the property was damaged and not left in original state prior to being rented.
Personally, I would be putting this expense on the tenant. However, if you gave permission to the tenant to make changes, unfortunately this unexpected cost would have to come out of your pocket.
@Deddy W. Approach the tenant with the issue. Likely they'll tell you where to go. End result, you cash their damage deposit and the delta which the deposit doesn't cover is on you.
The next time you're in AZ checking on the property, walk through it with an independent contractor for a second quote.
Personally I wouldn't wait until move out, I'd tell them they need to pay the cost now. If they work with you give them a payment plan to pay for the repair over time.
If they refuse decide if it's worth it to move to evict. I say that because a tenant that does this once will likely do it again unless they really understand the consequence is paying for the damage. And you lease should be written such that both the unapproved "upgrade" and the failure to pay for the damage are grounds for lease termination.
Are you sure the tiles were the real issue? Like @Tom V. said it's hard to imagine that a floor would bow because of tile being installed. If it were weak enough to bow because of 3-5 pound tiles spread out across it then wouldn't a 100+ pound person fall thru it?
Hmmm, I smell a skunk here. First, my thoughts. You don't mention what room this was done in. I suspect that the room(s) in question used to have carpet. In my area, with many older homes, it is not uncommon for floors to have a little (or sometimes quite a bit) of a "bow" to them. With carpet, many people never notice. With tile, everybody notices if the floors aren't leveled prior to installation. Without knowing much, I suspect that the floors were uneven to begin with and it is just much more apparent with the different flooring. Bottom line with this is that if the tenant made alterations without your written approval, then as long as you have a decent lease, you should be able to push the tenant, possibly with court help, to put the property back to the condition they accepted it in. This may or may not be worth the trouble if the tenant has little money.
Second thought, be careful on submitting a lot of small claims in to your insurance company. I understand that insurance is expensive, but if you become known as somebody that claims EVERYTHING, then you may soon find out that it can get even MORE expensive and you may have a tougher time getting quotes from some companies.
Now for the skunk part. Was it your property manager that told you that the tile floor caused the damage? If that is the case, then if I were in your shoes, I would start looking REALLY close at the property manager. This is even MORE true if the quote to repair was also from the property manager. From what I am gathering, you live a distance from the property. Even so, I would try to figure out how to get at least one other opinion through a channel other than your PM.
Something stinks here and other posters have already picked up on the fact that tile installation does not, in nearly all cases, cause a floor to bow. I fear that you are being mislead.
@Adam Johnson, my thoughts exactly. This is not the first time that my property manager came in with repair quotes that were not in the inspection. It is either the PM making stuffs up or the inspector did not do a good job inspecting.
Do you guys know how can I get a second opinion other than my property manager? And yes, I live in a different state from my rental property.
I don't have any great ideas, unfortunately. One option might be to contact a local Realtor and see if you can get a contractor referral. Another option might be to contact competitive property managers in the area. Maybe somebody else with more experience with this situation can chime in better ideas. I use my own crews for the most part and my only out of town property is large enough to have an on-site manager that works for me directly.
I have a 4-plex in Mesa AZ that is two-storied. One of the second floor tenant installed tile floor on her unit - as the result, the floor bowed down due to the weight of the tiles. I tried to file a claim to my insurance company, but they call it as "wrongful installation" thus denying the claim.
How do you deal with situation like this? Do you ask your tenant to contribute? I got an estimate from my property manager that the cost of repair will be north of $1.5K >__<.
If your floor bowed due to the weight of ceramic tiles , there is something wrong with the structure . How much is it bowing down ? Is the drywall below cracked ? Go to the room below and measure at different points the distance between the floor and the ceiling . See what you have , if there is a difference of over 1 to 2 inches , there are other problems
Contact a local home inspector, there should be plentiful in Meza.
Get them to check on this specific issue.
Just as @Account Closed & @Matthew Paul suggested, you do not need further liabilities from your second floor tenant fell through the floor & hit the guy on the first floor.
If the property manager said the tile bowed the floor, get a new property manager. The problem has likely been there a long time...and not the tenants fault.
A floor CAN be structually inadequate to handle tile, but because of what floor could do to tile job, not what tile job could do to the floor... flexing could cause grout to crack and tiles could pop or crack. The weight of tile in lbs per square foot would be much less than the average toddler.
I would expect it to cost well over $1500 to fix. If it does indeed need fixing, its not a job for your PM's handyman cousin Guido, rather an experienced GC/builder or remodeler. Is the floor bad enough to even worry about it? I would find out how long the tile has been down and if there are any cracks in the grout or tile. If its been down awhile and no evidence of damage from floor flexing, its possible the floor settled in the past and is a cosmetic issue. Of course im sitting in my recliner in Alaska and cant see it from here... although I CAN see Russia from here! :c)
You might consider getting a good remodel contractor out to look at it. Give lower unit tenant applicable notice to enter so he can check ceiling below.
The least expensive way to fix a sagged floor is from ceiling below and can usually be accomplished by sistering new joists to existing joists. New joists with a heavy crown(bow) are placed crown up, and jacked into place and nailed in. If its addressed from the floor... tile, underlayment, and subfloor come up and joists sistered, and then a new floor, but you end up with level floor up, and a dip remains in ceiling below.
Open concept being all the rage these days, Ive seen bearing walls removed without installing a header or beam to carry load. Ive also seen plumbing drains run by notching floor joists or large holes cut in marginally sized joists for the span. You may get lucky and find an inspector who knows enough to rightly diagnose the problem, but IMO youd be better off with a builder or remodeler.
I agree with what was already stated in prior post. Highly doubt Tile would make the floor bow unless the floor is made of wet paper towels. One thing I didn't read was sometimes you have to carve out some time jump in your car or on that plane and go out to your property. No one is gonna care about your property like you do. You stated this PM company already came with some suspect repairs once. seems like they may be at it again. Especially if they know you don't come out they can say anything.
I contacted my guy in Mesa AZ. and is willing to evaluate the sagging floor situation with your duplex. He's inexpensive and knows what he's doing in terms of construction and rehab. Let me know if you want him to second-opinion it for you.
I asked my PM for details and here is her explanation of the situation:
"Because the bowing of the floor is not so pronounced it doesn’t reflect on the pictures. Not to mention the tenant has various pieces of furniture in the living room. I took a picture of the tiles now missing. The tenant removed the broken pieces and covers the area with a rug. There are 6 tiles missing. When you walk the area around this section the tiles/floor feel loose but they are not fully detached. I calculate these are about 6 more tiles.
The uncovered area feels soft. Not enough to break with the center table that sits on top of it.
Hope this helps.
Regards,"
Has any of you encountered an issue like this before? Is it worth fixing? I am being quoted $1.5K++ to fix this, do you guys think it is fair and necessary?
Personally I wouldn't wait until move out, I'd tell them they need to pay the cost now. If they work with you give them a payment plan to pay for the repair over time.
From what you have been told by the PM, your subfloor is soft. Which means it's moving. Moving floors and tiles don't go together. And like someone else said above, it was probably livable with carpeting and pad which is forgiving to unlevel floors. Repairing or replacing the tile job shouldn't be your first concern. A spongy subfloor needs your immediate attention, especially if it's on the second floor.
You need to have someone assess the joists and subfloor. Maybe it's just badly installed or damaged plywood (or wrong thickness) in a few places Or maybe you need to shore-up the supports underneath.
Unfortunately, I'd never trust a PM company to do that assessment for me. It really could be a simple as replacing some rotted boards or badly done previous repair. Or it could be severe termite damage to the joists. I'd call @Stephen S. contact and ask for an assessment. Then compare it to the PM's vendor quote.