Property Manager I fired today did repairs without an approval. Am I liable?

Property Manager I fired today did repairs without an approval. Am I liable?

Investor · Little Ferry, NJ · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 6 votes

Hi All,

Here's a situation.

I bought a rental property from a turnkey provider based in Indianapolis last November with a tenant in place. This provider rehabs, sells and manages a property so they've managed a property from day 1. However, the tenant was late on rents most of months (10-20 days late) and finally refused any kinds of communications so on July 25th the property manager started the eviction process (we should have started earlier). I wasn't happy with the property manager because of their lack of communications even after I raised concerns to the manager and the owner few times. I always found out about tenants missing rents when I received no distribution and saw statements with no rent. I had to follow up constantly and escalated to the owner few times but it did not improve (I should have left earlier).

A month went by after they started the eviction process, I followed up with the property manager and instead the owner responded saying they took the possession of the property and they have several prospects for the property. 3 weeks went by and I didn't hear anything so I called their office and found out the property manager left the company. By this time, I was already charged $125 for rekeys and deadbolts/doorhandles so I assumed the turnover repairs were minimal. I asked the owner the progress of tenant search and said the tenant trashed the house badly so they are still doing repairs and it's not ready for showing yet. He said it's going to be around $2000 and they will complete repairs in 2 days. I asked to provide a list of repairs and before/after pictures few days later. I expressed serious concern that I wasn't aware of these repairs and their lack of communication. In an effort to keep my business and considering how badly the investment they sold performed (negative return due to 3 lost rents, attorney, repairs) compared to their projected of 16%, he offered he will cover the repair cost of $2000. I told him that I have three requests with specific due dates over next 7days while I re-consider the relationship and he agreed he will fulfill my requests. Fast forward 7 days, he failed to communicate in timely manner so today I told him I'd like to terminate the agreement but would like him to consider covering portion of expenses and of course he said no and he will send out a statement with outstanding balance shortly. He actually holds a security deposit of $1225 for the evicted tenant.

My question is this. In our property management agreement, it says below but I was never asked for an approval for repairs done after the eviction which is about $2000 (more than the limit that requires an approval). Am I legally liable for this expense and what would you do?

'Single maintenance or repair items up to $200 will be performed at Agent's discretion and in accordance with the Lease Agreement. without prior Owner approval. Agent will obtain Owner's approval for any maintenance and or repairs that may exceed $200. If an emergency or extraordinary situation occurs, or if Owner cannot be reached, agent will proceed with the needed repair/maintenance.'

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Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 476 posts · 294 votes
12y

@Marvin Song Why are we not publicly outing this company, using the strength of the community to improve the situation and more importantly, save future investors the hardship of dealing with said company?

Best of luck with your situation.  @Ashley Mullin has the right path forward.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2013 · 381 posts · 69 votes
    12y

    @Marvin Song Sorry to hear about your experience. I haven't worked with property management as I am managing my own property, but I plan to have PM in the future. I am interested in following what people say about this.

    If you are still interested in investing in Indianapolis, let me know how I can be of help.

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    It depends on what your agreement says. Usually the agreement will specify a dollar amount that they can do without approval and over that they have to get your approval. What does your agreement say?

  • Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Marvin Song:

    If you're asking for "after" pictures, it sounds like you might have approved the work.  How did he offer to cover the repair cost? Was it contingent (or implied) on continued business? This might turn into a he said/she said thing centering on that phone call.

    After the SD, you will only be out $875 ($2000 repairs + $125 rekey - $1250 SD) and that, for what it's worth, is collectible from the tenant.

    Certainly fire them for lack of communication and selling you a property that has never performed, I'd work out the best deal I can and move on.  Your armed with negative online reviews (including here) and possible complaints to the division for failure of fiduciary responsibilities.

    Rough situation.

    Wm

    • Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      12y

      Sorry.  $900 out of pocket.  Didn't see that the SD was only $1225.

    • Andrew SyriosPro Member
      Moderator
      Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      12y

      If your agreement says that they require approval to do any repairs over $2000 and there's no written approval, than you should be clear. That being said, if it became legal, I suspect it would be pretty messy. With them holding that $1225 security deposit, it might be best to offer to split it with them or something like that.

    • Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 29 votes
      12y

      @Marvin Song 

      I have been in property management for years and this is a tough one....Here are a few points.

      1.  If you don't pay it, then the contractor might not get paid.  If that happens, then the contractor good place a lien on your property.  That is a big hassle!

      2.  Time is money.  I would move past it and look to the future.  It's not worth the time or energy to fight with your PM company.  Just find a new one and start cash flowing.

    • Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 476 posts · 294 votes
      12y

      @Marvin Song Why are we not publicly outing this company, using the strength of the community to improve the situation and more importantly, save future investors the hardship of dealing with said company?

      Best of luck with your situation.  @Ashley Mullin has the right path forward.

    • Investor · Little Ferry, NJ · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 6 votes
      12y

      Thanks for replies, everyone. 

      @William Hochstedler  I did not give them an approval. I asked for pictures because he told me they started repairs and will be completing in few days when I talked to him. That was the first time when I found out the property was trashed badly. He offered he will cover the entire cost if we stay with him. I gave last chance and wanted to see if he keeps his promises by asking 3 requests but he failed to deliver in agreed dates. Although he was a day late on two occasions, it was important for me to see if he takes this seriously. As soon as I said, I will move to a new PM, he said he won't cover any of repairs. 

      @Mike D'Arrigo @Andrew Syrios  I put the excerpt of agreement at the bottom of my post and it says an agent will obtain owner's approval for any maintenance and or repairs that may exceed $200. I agree with Andrew it'd be better to find a middle ground rather than going to legal situation. 

      @Ashley Mullin I believe they have internal team who does repairs since they do major rehabs and sell properties to investors. Having said that, I agree time is money and not worth time and energy to go through hassles but wanted to see what my options are. 

      @Sam B. I hear what you mean. However, I'm sharing the experience from my perspective. I'm sure the owner has a different perspective and things that he doesn't agree. Also, this is my experience with them. They might have happy clients. Who knows. They are not for me and I'm moving on to someone else. If anybody is interested in knowing who this is, I will share privately. 

    • Oakland, CA · Member since 2013 · 15 posts · 18 votes
      12y

      My main concern would be what state is my property in.  Based on their track record of not communicating/doing things right how certain are you the repairs actually got done?  If they are done were they done correctly?

      I'm questioning the assumption that there is $2,000 owed because no work may have in fact been performed.

    • Investor · Little Ferry, NJ · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 6 votes
      12y

      @Terence J. I actually got pictures of after-repairs. Having said that, since I'm out of state, I will have a new PM walk through the property and get his feedback before taking any actions. 

    • Jerry W.Pro Member
      Moderator
      Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      12y

      @Marvin Song  this site is an excellent place to list the turnkey operator's name.  You have not said horrible things about them you have been factual for the most part.  I will send you a private pm but you do not appear to have been unfairly slanted, you mentioned his offer to pay for repairs.

    • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      12y

      Yet another post about a bad turnkey company and a bad PM ...

    • Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2011 · 166 posts · 31 votes
      12y

      And just a day after the podcast covered some of this argument haha.

      I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Although it sounds like you might be able to get the $2000 covered since it wasn't necessarily approved, it probably would be best to just move on. Hope it works out!

    • Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      12y
      Originally posted by @Marvin Song:

      3 weeks went by and I didn't hear anything so I called their office and found out the property manager left the company. 

       I have seen multiple threads where the source of problems with a property management company is the property manager leaving.

      I can't think of any other business models where the salesperson is also responsible for fulfillment--ensuring problems in service in the event of departure from the company.

      The staffing model where property manager A manages doors 1-100 and property manager B manages doors 101-200 is fundamentally flawed and leads to problems exactly like Marvin's.  I imagine this model evolved from the real estate sales agency model where the agent oversees all aspects of a transaction, but the relationship with the client in a property management situation is very different than that of a buyer or seller.

      There is a valuable take-away here.  When performing due diligence on a pm company ask this very question: "What systems do you have in place if my property manager leaves the company?"  This pm co probably has another 10-20 clients in Marvin's boat right now.

      Wm

    • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
      12y
      Marvin Song Sounds like a total and complete nightmare. Pick your battles. You better get your *** to that house and check it out. A. Take possession of your property and change the locks B. Examine repairs required, take pictures, hire someone to do the repairs and babysit them until complete C. Try to rent the property yourself or Start interviwing new PMs. To answer your question, your liability would be determined by answering several questions a. Did you authorize the repair b. Did the repair actually occur c. To a lesser extent, did the repair cost 2000 bucks ( not really relevant, but you could argue it as a reason for non-payment if the first 2 questions are true) if you haven't paid it yet, don't. Let them submit a justification in pictures of the repairs done, the costs of those repairs,...if the above questions are untrue, let them pound the sand.
    • Investor · Little Ferry, NJ · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 6 votes
      12y

      @Jerry W. He offered but as soon as I said I will stop working with him he said he will NOT cover. It's amazing how people can quickly change.

      @Luke W. b) No, I did not authorize. I was NOT even told about the property being trashed badly and repairs are being done until I spoke to the owner to find out about a new tenant search progress. c) Repairs appear to occur since I got pictures. I'm waiting for invoices and final statement. As I said above, they are holding 2 security deposits which is more than $2000 repair cost the owner is claiming. 

    • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
      12y
      Marvin Song Possession is 9/10ths of the law. Check your house and see if these "repairs" were done and pictures support it. If so, take the hit and move on with your life. Getting your money back will be costly and time consuming, and thats only if obvious that the pm faulted If you didn't "authorize" the work and it still improved your home, you're more than likely not getting all your money back even if you win, and then how long will all that take??
    • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      12y

      Sounds pretty close to extortion  to me .

    • Jerry W.Pro Member
      Moderator
      Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      12y

      Funny thing about reputation.  If the guy plays fair so should you.  If he tries to take advantage of you by all means post his name and actions here.  This is how businesses are made and lost.

    • Real Estate Attorney, Broker, Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 207 posts · 58 votes
      11y

      Marvin,

      You may have some legal standing against the property management company given how vague the terms and conditions of the repair clause is. However, this would need to be argued. Most PM companies write their agreements in a similar manner as your example so that they can proceed forward quickly as to any repairs, especially if such repairs are a health and safety consideration. Or, if the opposite effect, just to charge you.

      You may be able to argue the issue of non-communication. So, does this warrant pre-approval. What steps did they take to notify you of the entire situation and overall repairs needed? What does your agreement state? What constitutes an "emergency" or "extraordinary situation"? How are those terms defined, if at all. 

       You need to read your agreement carefully and, if you elect to pursue, consult an attorney. 

    • Colleen F.Pro Member
      Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      11y

      Two security deposits for two separate properties one of which was trashed. Can he hold the second deposit on the non-trashed house against problems with the first house?  For the amount you probably are going to need to take a hit to avoid a lien if he doesn't pay a contractors.   I don't however see how he  can mix the security deposit of the two properties.

    • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      11y

      Just wanted to add to be very careful that he doesn't send the tenant back the security deposit before deducting required repairs for damages.   If he knows you're not staying with him already, he may not bother with the time it takes to list actual damages versus normal wear and tear and provide receipts needed to deduct damages from the deposit.  It's easier for him to send the tenant back a lot more than he deserves and leave you paying for tenant's damages or having to try to get it back from the tenant, yourself.  So you may need to check it out personally to insure that the deposit is distributed correctly.   As far as the other deposit, there should be no problems transferring it to the new PM, and the new PM can probably help you contact whatever state agency monitors those transactions as states usually are very critical about how security deposits are handled, so you'll probably have plenty of backup if he tries to keep your other deposit.   

    • Investor · Little Ferry, NJ · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 6 votes
      11y

      @Ashley Mullin They just sent me last statement and it says the balance is $3000. They still have 2 security deposits of $1225 (for this property) and $1300 (for other property). What do you suggest I do? Negotiate to have them keep 2 deposits to cover repairs or something else?

      @Colleen F. @Lynn McGeein Thanks for your response. Given the latest situation as described above. Any suggestions on what to do?

    • Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 80 posts · 29 votes
      11y

      @Marvin Song 

      Sounds like a good plan...I would request it in writing if they agree to terms.  Is the $1300 SD tenant still in the property?  Is the lease in the property management companies name?  If the lease is in their name, then they are liable to return the security deposit back to the tenant. SO they may not go for it.  Let me know what they say...you can also give me a call if you would like..

    • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      11y

      This seems like a pretty cut and dried matter to me. I think some of the earlier posts were about people not reading thru the original post very carefully - which happens to all of us

      Bottom line is the property manager didn't get permission for the repairs over 200 so thats all you should be liable for in terms of the repairs.

      I would get a new PM signed up asap and get them over there to rekey the house and assess the situation. Don't sit on this another day because its simply costing you money.

      Tell the PM company you're expecting to get both security deposits immediately minus a maximum of $200. If they don't anything other than that, you'll be taking them to court and publishing their company name on all the investor sites on how poor a job they did here and what an absolute nightmare they've been as a PM.

      Don't be afraid to yell at the guy too. There are too many people in this crazy world that think they can play fast and loose with the rules. Be confident that you know you're rights and that they better jump to or they're going to be at risk for losing their ability to provide PM services at all.

      Either a BB complaint or a complaint to a realtor's association or some other group that governs the PMs in that state will go a long way to costing this joker any more business.

      But, no matter what, you clearly need to get out of that company fast. And don't put up with nonsense about covering 2k in repairs. Not authorized so you don't pay.

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