Property Managers: How Does One Deal w/ the Cruddy Ones

Property Managers: How Does One Deal w/ the Cruddy Ones

Involved In Real Estate · Potomac Falls, VA · Member since 2012 · 203 posts · 31 votes

We have all heard the horror stories of terrible property management. I mean, really, bad property management is probably the number one problem in all of America. Overstatement, yeah; but it's just my way of venting frustration. Luckily, I've found a decent one where I invest.

My question basically organically generated as a result of reading a lot of the feedback on the forums to other questions. "My property manager did X, Y, Z....what do I do?" The paramount answer seems to be "fire them immediately and find another PM." Great. However, this brings up a major issue. Firing them sounds simple; in practice, it can be a kick in the pants. 

Here's what happened in my situation. I hired a PM. I spent hours vetting them. I interviewed the company's head for about an hour and did some research. I even asked them about the one negative review they had on Google, and I was satisfied w/ their answer. Once I signed, it was like Pandora's box of hell. 

1. That guy I spoke with went totally off the radar. I never heard from him again. I was assigned to a few of his minions. 

2. They did not readily list the property. It went on their website and the MLS about 2 weeks later.

3. They quoted a high rental price to me and then quickly kept asking to reduce it, ultimately a 25% reduction. 

4. I left them a voice message asking if they thought building a back yard fence would increase demand for the property. I never heard back from them about that. They called and said they had a tenant ready. On the day they were to sign the lease, the PM asked when I was going to build the fence I promised. Holy cow! I told them I was not going to build a fence; I asked for their opinion. That tenant walked.

5.Their communication was terrible. I gave them feedback for the whole business, suggesting they contact all their clients who have vacant homes on the market and provide them a weekly update as to the activity on their listings for the week. I also suggested they at the very least return phone calls and emails. The response was golden. This is, sadly, an actual quote, "Your expectations are higher than any of our other clients." Their other clients must be corpses then.

6. When they finally got an application in, they pushed me really hard to accept it. Here's another amazing thing (and tell me if I'm wrong on this one), when they ran the applicants credit, they did not get a credit score. I said that was incredibly suspect to me, since I've run dozens of credit checks myself and I ALWAYS received a credit score back. These folks claimed about 10% of the time that happened. Everything else checked out. So, like a foolish clown, I approved, just to get a tenant in place after they failed for 3 months.

7. The tenant failed to pay. I inquired with them on the day after I normally would send a pay-or-quit. They did not call back. After about a week I finally got a hold of someone at the PM company. They asked me on the 17th of the month if I wanted them to send a pay or quit notice. Wow! I told them to do so immediately and to start the eviction process. A week before court the tenant tried to pay them and I asked them not to accept payment. I did so not because I wanted the tenant out, but because I needed to fire this clown-show of a property management company. After the eviction, I fired them. They took the remaining amount they were to receive per the PM contract from the security deposit.

Question: It seems Realtors (yes, I am one because I don't trust most of them) and PM's have contracts that mostly protect themselves. The contract w/ every PM I have used so far stipulates that if I cancel the contract, they get paid. In essence, what they're saying is, "If we suck at our jobs and do not do right by you, we will make sure we still get paid."

What is the work around? How does one fire a PM without getting screwed? I am very lucky to have a PM now that is doing well for me. However, even he has the "if you cancel, I'm still gonna get paid." He just hasn't screwed me over yet.

0Reply
29 views

Most Popular Reply

Steve RozenbergPro Member
Specialist · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y

Next time you go to hire a PM company here are some questions you may want to ask.

Questions to Ask prospective management companies

  • What are your average days on market for vacant homes?
  • What is your average rent amount for all properties managed?
  • What is your average work order cost for the owner?
  • What is your average make ready cost for the owner?
  • Are all my invoices uploaded to my owner portal?
  • How do you advertise your vacant units?
  • Do I receive video of my pre and post make ready?
  • Do you have a setup fee?
  • Do you upcharge on maintenance?
  • When do you make owner payments? How often?
  • Are you a Certified Property Manager?
  • Are you a member of NARPM?
  • What is your Guarantee?
See this reply in the discussion

14 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Wow! What a story!  I'm glad that I self manage and don't have to find a PM.  It sounds like you can really get the runaround.  I know I've read quite a few stories on the forums about bad PMs.

  • Contractor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2014 · 423 posts · 135 votes
    11y

    Property management is an interesting business all the way around.  I've been in the industry for the last 10 years and every time I think I've heard it all, something else pops up that shocks the heck out of me.  It seems that the vast majority of management companies in our area do a very poor job.  It makes me want to open my company and I may one day, after I amass enough properties that I'll need to manage them. All I can say for someone looking for a PM is references, references, references.

  • Involved In Real Estate · Evergreen Park, IL · Member since 2014 · 24 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    That is why I do not like it when people say hire a PM right away at all cost. My philosophy is that I will manage the place myself until I find the PERFECT PM. I know for sure that I can do a better job than some pathetic company. If not, you will end up costing yourself thousands of dollars. 

    Ask around and vet as many companies as possible! Then make your choice. I'm guessing the BP community will have some great recommendations for you.

    Feel your pain man!

  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Andres Piedra That is quite the story.  I'm a PM myself, so I try to look at it from that side, to see if I can offer any insight on why things might have gone the way they did.  Honestly, I have no words for this.  I've only been in business five years, but I've never been fired by an owner because they were unhappy, and if someone did want to fire me, I would happily let them out of their contract with no further financial obligation.   

  • Real Estate Agent · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 114 posts · 30 votes
    11y

    These stories always make me think of starting a PM company thinking I can do a better job but I know it is hard. I manage my own properties but want to help others.

  • Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ralph R.:

    These stories always make me think of starting a PM company thinking I can do a better job but I know it is hard. I manage my own properties but want to help others.

     Ditto! Especially after my relocating to Seattle last year and contacting close to well over a dozen PM's. It was...mind-boggling, to say the least.

    With that being said, I have enough on my plate as it is, BUT, I've met two incredible PM's (insurance clients of mine) here, so not all is lost; they are fab, and their tenants love them. Also, I went to an REIA meeting last week, and a PM spoke there. She seemed to be really solid, and while she owned a PM business and managed others properties, she also managed some of her own properties.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Chanté Owens:

     That may be the key right there. While shopping for the best PM, look for those who manage their own properties too... then see if they follow the golden rule.

    I also believe one needs to be swift, firm and fair when dealing with any vendor who is not  performing well, including PMs. Negotiate a contract that is good for both parties, you and the PM, then enforce it if they stray.

  • Lender · Ladera Ranch, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Andres Piedra It's tough to not pay a PM extra money for breaking a contract when they control the money. It doesn't sound right to me that they took money away from a tenant's forfeited security deposit. 

    To me, the contract is a two way street and if the PM company doesn't hold up their part of the bargain, I feel less inclined to honor my side, especially when their actions or inactions are costing me money due to their incompetence, lack of communication, negligence, etc.

    I've fired two PM companies. In one case, I had a good relationship with the parent company (realty agency) but was fed up with the continued incompetence of the property manager. I e-mailed them that I no longer needed them to manage the properties, they gave me the keys, and that was it. 

    The other company seemed to be a lot more professional and advanced and we signed a whiz bang contract that included something about a cancellation fee. They couldn't fill the one property I gave them after a few months and I stopped accepting the excuses. I talked to the owner, listed my grievances, and we cancelled amicably. I didn't offer to pay a cancellation fee and he didn't ask for one.

    I believe in honesty, integrity, and living up to your obligations. However, when the other side doesn't do what they're supposed to and is flagrantly incompetent like you've described, you can throw that contract out the door because I won't give money just because it says I have to. Good luck winning your case in small claims court. These kind of companies do what they can get away with for as long as they can get away with it before they fold under.

    Sounds like you did quite a bit of due diligence on this one. Sometimes they still fall through the cracks. Eventually you'll find a good one......

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Ouch! Sorry!

    I self-manage even from across the country. It has now become part of my business model. That being said that wasn't the "plan" from the beginning. I couldn't find a decent reasonable manager who's contract wasn't a load of crock so I said forget this and did it on my own! 

    All I can say is I would want a non compliance in the contract. 

  • Steve RozenbergPro Member
    Specialist · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Next time you go to hire a PM company here are some questions you may want to ask.

    Questions to Ask prospective management companies

    • What are your average days on market for vacant homes?
    • What is your average rent amount for all properties managed?
    • What is your average work order cost for the owner?
    • What is your average make ready cost for the owner?
    • Are all my invoices uploaded to my owner portal?
    • How do you advertise your vacant units?
    • Do I receive video of my pre and post make ready?
    • Do you have a setup fee?
    • Do you upcharge on maintenance?
    • When do you make owner payments? How often?
    • Are you a Certified Property Manager?
    • Are you a member of NARPM?
    • What is your Guarantee?
  • Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
    11y

    @Marcia Maynard You're probably right, Maria. One thing I really thought she did well was show the 360 degree view of each individuals responsibility, and she even included the property. She asked the questions: What makes a good PM company? What makes a good tenant? And my personal favorite, If your properties could talk, what would they say about you, and the care and attention you provide to them? Do you only fix things when they are broken, or are you vigilant about providing preventive maintenance.

    Everybody responded, and provided some great responses. Good stuff, so glad I'm a part of the REIA! I'm learning tons.

  • Involved In Real Estate · Potomac Falls, VA · Member since 2012 · 203 posts · 31 votes
    11y

    These are all great responses. Thank you! Great list of questions, Steve.

    I think what amazed me most about the PM company that failed miserably in my eyes is that they thought they were great! "Your expectations are higher than our other clients' expectations." "We manage over 400 properties...we know what we're doing." Just incredible. This was about a year ago. This is the first I'm really posting what happened because I wanted to get over the emotion of it and approach the subject as objectively as possible.

    I may, when I get time, write a letter to the board (perhaps a complaint.....I know it's been a while, but it may still be worth it.) and possibly leave reviews on Google and Yelp. I won't say anything like "Don't use this company....they suck....etc etc." I will just share what happened to me like I did here and let the reader make up their own minds.

  • Washington, DC · Member since 2013 · 10 posts · 7 votes
    11y

    That's pretty bad.  I've heard other horror stories but the fence thing made me wince.

    A friend and I have been investing in real estate in the DC and Baltimore areas for years and we never found a PM company we really liked.  The problem wasn't the people; most of them were nice.  Our theory, instead, is that the problem is incentives. 

    1.  PMs are typically paid a % of monthly rents.  That motivates them to fill vacancies, though not much:  my friend and I never had vacancies when we managed our properties while the PMs who worked for us normally ran vacancy rates of 4-5%.  But the monthly % doesn't motivate them to control turnover, which is a cost to the investor (you have to pay for cleaning up and painting after the old tenant); in fact, PMs are paid a leasing fee for filling empty units, an incentive to -- at a minimum -- not worry about turnover.

    2.  PMs also pass through maintenance costs.  They have no incentive to negotiate the best price or find the best providers (other than worrying that you'll get mad when you get bill or have to pay for a plumber to come out twice).  Every time we second-guessed a price for a major project, we always found we could negotiate a better deal with a higher quality provider.

    3.  I've never seen a PM analyze market rates to figure out the best rents for our units.  Instead, they either listed them too high (creating a vacancy) or too low (cutting into our revenues).

    4.  The icing on the cake is the reporting.  The PMs we used sent us reports that were inaccurate, made no sense or both.  Tax time was painful.

    That's our theory.  Last year we decided to put it to the test.  We found a partner to run operations and set up our own property management company.  Our model is simple:  we link our compensation to results.  We set our base fee lower than the market PM rate and we earn more only if we deliver on metrics agreed upon with the investor.  For example, did we meet or exceed certain occupancy targets?  Did we hold costs at or below the investor's budget?  Did we get or exceed market rents?

    We're excited about the model, and we hope it gives us a competitive edge.  I'd love to hear folks' thoughts on our approach.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Andres Piedra:

    What is the work around? How does one fire a PM without getting screwed? I am very lucky to have a PM now that is doing well for me. However, even he has the "if you cancel, I'm still gonna get paid." He just hasn't screwed me over yet.

     Breach of contract failure to act in good faith etc. i suspect you have ample reason to fire them but you need an attorney to know for sure. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.