Hoarder Tenant given 75 day notice won't leave - Evict?

Hoarder Tenant given 75 day notice won't leave - Evict?

Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes

First post! Been following these forums for months but I finally have my own reason to post for some advice:

I have a tenant that's a hoarder and only paying ~$399 a month for an apartment in an area that's going for over $800 (We inherited the tenant from prior owner). I sent a letter in the mail that gave her 75 day notice that her monthly lease would not be renewed (lease only required 60 days) and that she had to surrender the premises after 75 days. I know she got the letter because she asked an agent of mine to confirm that "non-renewal" meant she had to leave. Then she emails me a message 3 days before her expected move-out date saying she didn't find an apartment, and that she wants to stay another 2 months. I replied with a proposal of a 2 month lease at >$800 a month but she refused, then stopped responding and sent her normal rent check for $399 along. I really tried being nice by giving plenty of notice and offered to help her find a place on craigslist, but no response.

What should I do? State is PA.

1. Is there a danger in cashing her $399 check or should I grab every dime I can get? Priority is to get her out asap, but no reason to leave cash on the table.

2. Is eviction the way to go? Could the hoarder thing make it difficult/different? I never brought that up in any communication except here, to be honest I need her out of there anyways so I can rehab it and rent it at fair market value. It's also a multifamily 12 unit so she poses a risk to my other tenants, and their safety is my priority over cash.

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Greg H.Pro Member
Moderator
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y

@Emilio E.

You have received several responses from well meaning people who do not live or are familiar with the laws in your area.  Evictions laws are state and sometimes even county or city specific.  Steve gave you a local contact and some state specific information

Personally, I would not make any reference to this being a "hoarder" situation at all as your tenants lease was up for renewal and she declined to renew under the revised terms and now needs to be removed for failing to vacate during the term given by the landlord

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    DO NOT CASH HER CHECK!!! I am pretty sure that if you cash her check, you are accepting her rent payment or partial payment, and you cannot begin the eviction process. However, I am not in PA, so I don't know the laws of that state. 

    Did you provide her with a lease stating the new rent would be $800? If you gave her proper notice (75 days vs 60 days sounds like proper notice if 60 is the requirement) how does your state handle tenants staying past the end of their lease? 

    How long has she been your tenant? Is this a recent purchase, and you have had it for 75 days, or have you been dealing with this for a while and just decided to act now? I don't think it really matters either way, just curious.

    I would consult an attorney in your area who is familiar with evictions. What is to say she will find another place in two months? Most likely, if you continue to accept her living there, she won't find any other place. If $800 is market rate, every month she can squeeze a $399 place is a win for her.

    Yes, the hoarder thing will make it more difficult to get her out, but I don't think the courts see it as a reason to let her stay longer. You will probably need several dumpsters to trash out her place. She could surprise you and take it all with her. But don't bet on that.

    Document everything. If the eviction goes through, having thorough documentation just makes things that much easier for you. Good luck!

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Yes I provided her with a lease for 2 months at $800 but she wouldn't sign it, so effectively she now has no active lease (not exactly sure how PA views this since I sent her a notice of non-renewal instead of eviction notice).  Sent the letter 79 days ago now.

    Been a tenant since 2011, we really just became aware of the magnitude of how bad the place is recently and decided to act, but wanted to try to play it safe hoping she'd leave on her own, but now I think she's playing us. And how much does a typical eviction like this cost? Just so I know what to expect when I get estimates.

    How much does a typical eviction like this cost? Just so I know what to expect when I get estimates. 

    P.S. If any Pittsburgh investors have any eviction lawyers to suggest please message me! 

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    She has been there so long, and she has so much stuff, she really doesn't want to move. She might be slightly deluded. She may think that if she doesn't sign the new lease, the old one is still in effect or valid.

    I would absolutely not cash the check. I would send another letter reiterating that she was supposed to be out on XX date, and you are starting the eviction process. And then do it.

    I don't know what an eviction costs in PA, so sorry. But I hope it is low cost, and quick. Good luck!

  • Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    If she pays by check you now have her checking account info so if you get a judgment you can garnishee her account.

    Good luck and keep us posted.

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    @Bob is that actually legal to self-garnish once I have a judgement?? I'd be astonished but happy to hear it

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Don't cash the check, because if you do so, you have just extended her rental agreement.  Then you have to give her notice all over again.

    Here's some info on how to evict her:

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-evictio...

    Make sure you learn what you need to do as far as her security deposit goes, so you don't lose your right to keep it, which you will most likely need to do to clean up - even if she takes everything with her.

    EDIT: Here's some info on returning security deposits in PA.  Remember, even if you don't return any money, you normally still have to send an itemization within the time frame:

    http://www.cmu.edu/policies/Landlord-Tenant/securi...

  • Investor · Monroeville, PA · Member since 2014 · 102 posts · 32 votes
    11y

    hey Emilio....dont cash the check, go to the magistrate for your area and file for eviction.  In PA without a lease you have a month to month so accepting payment might extend the previous agreement.  

    As far as cost, it is based on the amount you are claiming as damages.  Figure 100 to 200 to file if you do on your own and then more if you need to file for possession (i have never needed to do that yet).  The form at the magistrates office shows the filing fees.  

    Not sure what an attorney charges, but im sure a quick phone call would give you a good estimate. 

    A basic eviction its pretty straightforward.   

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    I think you got the message about accepting funds....LOL

    Drop off a large roll off dumpster in the yard a couple days before she is to move out, when a hoarder sees where her prized possessions will be going it will motivate them to clean the place out......but you'll still have a mess I'd bet.

    Such folks have psychological issues, I had one who I thought I'd have to call the cops and the folks at the funny farm to deal with her, but I got her kids to come get her. Call relatives and be prepared, they can just break down, but don't let empathy get in the way at that point.   

    BTW, I've done some neighborhood good will with dumpsters when they aren't full, great opportunity for neighbors to clean stuff up offering free trash removal. But watch for the illegal items and tell them what can be taken. :)

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    If this is owned by LLC, assume you will need an attorney. I would look up attorney Brad Dornish in that area and see if I could get a consultation. Hoarding became a protected class a couple of years ago ... it's considered a disability. That does not mean you can't evict - you have to treat "fairly" and offer "reasonable accommodation" if requested. To demonstrate you are being fair, you might have to do the same with all other tenants (like give similar notice and rent increase) - not really sure about how that would be judged.

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    @Steve It is an LLC, so I guess it's true an attorney is required? Hopefully she gets scared and see we mean business and moves out before court.

    Honestly the fact she's a hoarder is just an extra nail in the coffin, she would need to leave the building anyway, she's the lowest paying tenant there. We have prior tenants that we kindly asked to leave, also gave them more than required notice and we came to friendly mutual agreements, one of them even works for us doing landscaping now. I think I offered reasonable accommodation by offering an $800 lease like all the new tenants are getting.

    I feel like I'm in a pretty solid legal position, just need to keep a leash on the other owners from implementing aggressive self help measures haha.

    You guy are the best! I'll keep it updated.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Emilio E.:

    ... We have prior tenants that we kindly asked to leave, also gave them more than required notice and we came to friendly mutual agreements, one of them even works for us doing landscaping now. I think I offered reasonable accommodation by offering an $800 lease like all the new tenants are getting.

    ...

    What you described might be fair treatment, but I would say that it would fall short of what a hoarder's request for "reasonable accommodation" might be. A reasonable accommodation is something that a person with disability needs that somebody without that disability can do without - so housekeeping assistance might be an example here, sort of like a wheelchair ramp for those confined to a wheelchair. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Interesting. Well my sympathy is limited to the point that she is putting my other 11 tenants (not to mention my asset) in jeapordy. Unless the state pays me an extra 400$ a month and payd to clean her apt monthly she is not staying, hell or high water.

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Emilio E.

    You have received several responses from well meaning people who do not live or are familiar with the laws in your area.  Evictions laws are state and sometimes even county or city specific.  Steve gave you a local contact and some state specific information

    Personally, I would not make any reference to this being a "hoarder" situation at all as your tenants lease was up for renewal and she declined to renew under the revised terms and now needs to be removed for failing to vacate during the term given by the landlord

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Completely agree. I'm already contacting Steve's contact. Thanks everyone! 

  • FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    11y

    @Emilio E.,

    To Make the @ work do the following:

    Hold down the shift key and type the following: @?

    Look below this Window, and you will see a list of list of names of people who have posted in this thread.

    Click on the name of the person that you want notified via an email that you responded to them.

    If you are a Colleague with anyone that has not posted in this thread, and you want them to see your post, hold down the shift key, and type the @ and the first 4 letters of the first or last name.

    Look below this Window, and click on your Colleague's name.

    They will be notified via an email about your post in this thread.

    Raymond

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Emilio E.:

    @Bob is that actually legal to self-garnish once I have a judgement?? I'd be astonished but happy to hear it

     I'm not sure what you mean by "self-garnish", but here in Colorado, if you know where a person works or banks, you can file garnishment paperwork at the court.  You have to have it served on both the debtor and the employer or bank and then the money is impounded and goes through the courts.  There are fees for that and in Colorado, you can add those fees to the garnishment amount.

    But it's not like you can just show up at the bank with your judgment and ask for the money in a person's account.

    Be aware that some sources are not garnishable such as social security, disability payments, etc.  So what happens is that the bank receives the garnishment.  They impound the funds from the account and notify the account holder.  They then hold those funds for a period of time.  If the account holder can prove during that time period that the source of funds is a prohibited type, then the bank gives the money back.  If not, the money then goes to you.

    I always prefer to garnish a paycheck.  Depending on the person, they are unlikely to quit what may be a stable job just to avoid paying you.  If they have other garnishments - particularly child support garnishments - you may have to stand in line for a while as a certain percentage of a person's paycheck is not garnishable.  

  • Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    I don't know how your state handles garnishments but in Georgia after you get a judgment you have the sheriff serve the bank just like an employer and if there are funds in their account they will be attached. You do use account numbers as there might be other accounts. If they are SSI or an income that is not able to be garnished the bank or defendant will have to explain. They might change banks after the first garnishment but that's OK, at least you have something. I assume since you are operating under a LLC your attorney will have to do it and probably can add his/her fees to it.

    Good luck and it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2009 · 381 posts · 134 votes
    11y

    Hi, Emilio I agree with everyone's advice. Evict, don't cash the check, get a attorney involved, and yes-hoarding is a protected case.

    I have a close relative who is a hoarder and as you move forward you might what to read up on the reasons why people hoard, so you can make understand your tenant.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relation...

    I'm glad to hear your concerned with the safety of the building. Hoarding is a major health/safety problem.

  • Real Estate Investor · Parker, TX · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    @Greg H.

    Agree with Greg and the other advice here. It's best not to label in any public forum. There is no point as no longer under terms of a lease, refer to removal or eviction according the the laws in your area. 

    Any cashing of checks could be considered an agreement to the intent of the check. So, return the check(s). 

    Unfortunately eviction according to the set laws in your area seem to be the logical path. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    11y

    If the Tenant stays past the Lease Expiration Date and refuses to vacate, they are a Holdover and owe the Landlord double-rent for each month they remain in the Premises. Proceed with eviction.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Rochester, MI · Member since 2012 · 152 posts · 52 votes
    11y

    Speak with your attorney. They will know the best practice for this situation.

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2015 · 280 posts · 98 votes
    11y

    Pretty clear cut case here. 

    Evict. Non-payment of rent. (399 is not full payment).

    Don't cash in check like everyone says.

    Get an attorney; should have quite a few attorneys handling these bread and butter cases in your area. 

    Offer cash and keys to get your apartment back earlier, if it makes sense. (long shot for hoarders, but why not)

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Some updates!

    Tenant finally decided to respond to my prior text and agreed that she will be out in 53 days, even if it means she moves in with family. That gave me the idea to reach out to the emergency contact on file directly to corroborate that story to see if it was made up. The contact confirmed they are willing to cooperate and take her in if needed. 

    The lawyer I contacted advised to try this route before full-on eviction, but to get it in writing that she is leaving in 53 days, and not to cash the check to stay on the safe side if it does go to eviction, that way the timeline would not reset.

  • Investor · Mount Pleasant, SC · Member since 2015 · 43 posts · 21 votes
    11y

    Just curious…why would you not start the eviction?  If she doesn't move out in 53 days, then you would have to start the eviction and you would be even further behind in getting a new tenant.

  • Real Estate Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    The cost to evict (both money and my time) outweighs the possible risk she reneges on our new agreement in my opinion. The place needs a complete rehab before re-rental anyway and we already have our hands full with about 4 other units under renovation. 

    Right now the fastest route for her to leave seems like cooperation with family, and I don't think sending an eviction notice would serve to create willingness to cooperate. 

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