Another day, another shonky contractor

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Another day, another shonky contractor

Nat C.
Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes

I have been using Thumbtack to find various professional for hire. Thumbtack is similar to Angies List and Home Advisor.

I placed an ad for a HVAC technician. I offered $250 for installation on each AC unit stating that I needed two units installed in two properties immediately and another two units installed next month. 

I had several offers to complete the work and ended up choosing a company that were close by. 

They did not turn up for the scheduled Tuesday appointment and they rescheduled for Wednesday. The tenants were arriving Wednesday night so it was certainly cutting it fine. On Wednesday the AC guy called me and when they were at the job to tell me it would cost an extra $250 due to extra work and materials they needed to buy. I wasn't in a position to say no, so I agreed.

They finished the job in the afternoon and text me pictures and said they emailed me the invoice.

The tenants arrived later that day and told me the AC unit wasn't working. I then looked at the invoice and saw it is for $1410. I questioned the the company on the additional $910 that I hadn't agreed to pay or been advised of and he said it was extra materials and labor.

To make it look even more like they are trying to pull the wool over my eyes, he said the quote of $250 per unit means $250 for air handler and $250 for the condenser. 

Presently I have a HVAC system that isn't cooling. He said they will come and look at it after I pay the $1410. At no point will I pay $1410, I will only pay $500 because that's what I agreed to. He said he will be placing a mechanics lien on the property. 

I did some reading on mechanics liens and I imagine I would have a chance to contest it and I have thumbtack correspondence in writing that the agreed price is $250 per unit. As mentioned he is claiming per unit pertains to air handler as one unit and condenser as second unit. 

How would my Bigger Pockets friends proceed?

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Keith Belzner
Nottingham, MD · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 37 votes
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This quote from the original post has me the most concerned. As a contractor when someone "offers" me the price for a job any reputable contractor will run. You call them they come out and THEY give the price not the homeowner. Now if you want to haggle from there thats another story but they are the ones with the knowledge of your problem. If you want some laughs look up craigslist ads offering jobs for work at absurd prices, for example people have offered $10 per hour for someone to come out and install a deck, not kidding. 

I have seen both sides, from a contractor and investor. Contractors will come to loathe investors who are cheap about everything and investors will complain that contractors are ripping everyone off. Cant we all just get along and make some money.

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  • Michael Hayworth
    Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes
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    I would extract myself from this situation in whatever way I need to in order to get the tenants cool and cut my losses.

    Then I would proceed by finding a reputable HVAC contractor who does good work at reasonable prices, but understand that good work has costs. Giving somebody used units that may or may not have the right equipment, and offering $250/unit install gets you two drunk guys and a truck. 

    1Reply
  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    I would check the contractor's credentials (hopefully they are licensed, bonded, and insured) and report problem to the contractor's board, labor & industry, or the equivalent in your area, for guidance. I would also file a complaint with the BBB and with Thumbtack. You don't have to go this alone. Get the opinion of a reputable HVAC contractor in your area and the opinion of a reputable General Contractor in your area as to what is reasonable. 

    By the sounds of it, this HVAC contractor has not only failed to do the job right and charged more than the agreed upon amount, but has also violated your trust. I would pay no more than the agreed upon $500 until the dispute is resolved. Do what you need to do to get the job done satisfactorily, with the services of another contractor. If the rogue contractor does place a lien on your property, which may be a mere threat, challenge it and you may prevail.

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  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
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    Was the quote you received in writing?

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
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    Pay nothing to them for 2 reasons: 1. Not working 2. No agreement on price Tell them to file mechanics liens all day long, show to court and dispute it then.
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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Anaheim, CA · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 11 votes
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    the fact the units don't work alone has the ball in your court..did you mention that to them? I'm sure thumbtack has some sort of complaint system, and investigate if this contractor you hired has a contractors license..tell them to go ahead with the liens (it's usually a way to try to scare you to pay the ridiculous invoice..) you have proof on the agreed price, and proof that the unit isn't working!

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  • Mark R.
    Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 8 votes
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    Nat 

    250 per unit sounds really cheap...like really cheap I don't know anyone that could do installation at that price with it being labor only.  Were your units filled with freon?  And you stated they needed materials so that means they had their time and gas involved and parts they had to buy.  Just something you need to consider.  

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  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dawn Anastasi:

    Was the quote you received in writing?

     Yes

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  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Nat C.:
    Originally posted by @Dawn Anastasi:

    Was the quote you received in writing?

     Yes

    I just had an issue with a contractor.  I have everything in writing from the contractor and they want to send me to collections to get money out of me for more than the job total.  I told them to go ahead, I have everything from them in writing.  They will just be wasting their time.

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  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
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    I would not pay under the circumstances. I have made a bad mistake trying to hire the cheapest guys in the past. That cost me lost rent, aggravation, and in the end I hired someone that did it right for more money. It wasn't worth the hassle.  Find someone that is reasonable and does it right..and get it done. Sometimes the money you save is not worth the headache!

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  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
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    No way for us to have an informed opinion.  Probably a combination of issues; perhaps "fishing in the wrong pond" for subs, a few miscommunications with a quote from a sub based on a description as opposed to an actual inspection,  from an owner that, not being an AC person may miss relevant issues, are these new or used units, did the handler "fit" into the enclosure, etc.  Bit certainly agreed that $250 is not enough money to install a handler, compressor, new copper lines andcharge the system.  Also sounds like the handler probably wasn't the same size/configuration as the old one.  I would hope a written quote, without a visual inspection,would have some stated assumptions/conditions addressing this.

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  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y

    I went to the house yesterday and the AC is actually working, contrary to what the tenants told me. When I questioned them they said it is working now and they think that they actually hadn't turned the on switch on properly previously. 

    I had already sent the company an email stating I was making a complaint with Thumbtack and the BBB as per advice I received here. The manager told me they would 'sue me for slander'. 

    After I found the AC to be working, I called the company and told them I would be sending a check for $500. That is double the price I was originally quoted. He said he would be putting a lien on my house. I am curious, can contractors just willy-nilly put a lien on someone's house? He made it sound as easy as picking up a Big Mac. One would think there is some due course that has to be undertaken where the opposing party has the opportunity to contest it?

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  • Ricardo P.
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 30 votes
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    I also live in the Miami area and have had several AC units replaced in the past few years at my properties. First thing I will tell you when it comes to HVAC, especially in our climate is that never take the lowest bid from any contractor down here. $250 for all the work you described is EXTREMELY low and I personally would never hire anybody who quoted me that. If you provided the units and just needed installation then I would expect easily more than 1k for somebody competent to do the job.

    That being said, regardless of how low the quote was, you paid for a job and clearly the unit isnt working. I would not pay them the full amount until they send somebody out to fix it, and you need to ask for an invioce which shows exectly what you are being charged for. I doubt at this point they will put a lien on your property. Good luck!

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  • Jeff Bridges
    Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
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    clearly there was a miscommunication and it was not made clear that there would be additional fees for the refrigerant and other parts needed for the install (they charge you by the lb and each unit is different). the older R-22 type is usually billed at $30-50 per lb (but depends what units you had installed).  most units hold 4-8 lbs of refrigerant. that can be 300-600 just in refrigerant material costs alone for 2 units. copper lines cost money as does other items. While I agree that further explanation is required why there was the discrepancy between your bid and their invoice, $250 all in wouldn't even cover basic supplies of even an in-house HVAC guy who is already on your company books. I don't see how you based your expectations thinking an independent company would be able to do this better. $1400 seems competitive and not gouging. I've paid 4-5k for a single full system to be installed parts and labor in the mid atlantic area which is fair. I think 3k for all parts and labor would be considered an excellent price. Ask them to break down the materials cost better and share here if that helps.

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  • George P.
    Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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    they can't put a lien unless you have a written contract. technically, if you just have a verbal, you can refuse to pay since there was never a signed contract.

    my HVAC guy installs AC for around 350 labor only. materials cost more than his labor, of course. but he has a full time job and does it after hrs.

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  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y

    I checked the legitimacy of the company before hiring them.

    With response to people who have pointed out that the job should have cost over $1000......

    That's fine but you can't provide a quote for $250 and then give an invoice for over 5 times that amount with no discussion in between.

    If I rented a hotel at a rate of $250 a night and then they tried to slog me with an extra $1200 bill the next day and said 'But it's ocean front and there is a jacuzzi, so it should have cost more than $250 a night', that would also be unfounded also.

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  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
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    yes, filling a mechanics lien is about as easy as ordering a Big Mac.  One simply fills out the statutory form, gets it notarized, and records it like any other document.  No documentation required, but there are some stiff penalties for filing a "fraudulent lien".  Once the lien is filed, they have one year to sue , or it goes away.  However, if you contest the lien, properly, it cuts their times on sue to 60 days.  So, you see them in court, or it simply goes away, and you can decide whether to pursue them for a fraudulent lien.

    1Reply
  • James DeRoest
    Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Nat C.:

    How would my Bigger Pockets friends proceed?

    Personally, I wouldn't put posts up about how your trying to rip an AC guy off and then feel aggreived - really now - $250? Seriously?

    You need a reputable AC guy, not someone off Thumwhatever responding to dumb low *** offers like $250. He already demonstrated that he cannot stay on schedule because he's so busy - and he's busy because he's cheap. Cheap is not good.

    The job you wanted is a really good way of finding an AC company you like.

    And being in Florida you need an AC company in your pocket, because if you don't you will never get a call out any time soon when something goes wrong. You're another person on a list.

    We have an AC company, he's not always the cheapest guy (certainly not the most expensive), but we stay with them because we get great service - if something goes wrong, we are on the top of their lists. They will see our tenants before seeing other customers because we are repeat business every summer.

    Quote from 2 weeks ago to hook in an outside unit (replace the incorrect one), $325. 

    And here's the other thing - don't become the landlord they all hate. All these guys talk to each other and your reputations can be ruined very easily "hey, this landlord wanted me to install a whole AC system for $250 including materials" "oh yeah - what's their name?".

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  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

    You need a reputable AC guy, not someone off Thumwhatever responding to dumb low *** offers like $250. He already demonstrated that he cannot stay on schedule because he's so busy - and he's busy because he's cheap. Cheap is not good.

    Quote from 2 weeks ago to hook in an outside unit (replace the incorrect one), $325. 

    And here's the other thing - don't become the landlord they all hate. All these guys talk to each other and your reputations can be ruined very easily "hey, this landlord wanted me to install a whole AC system for $250 including materials" "oh yeah - what's their name?".

    What a ridiculous response......

    Thumbtack is a review based website like Angie's list which can be a useful resource. I've found a plethora of great people on there across the country in the past 6 years.

    I paid the $500 for the AC installation..... not $250. He just quoted $250 to get the job.

    In the sleepy town of Century where the  POPULATION IS 1730, I am sure there are only a a few dozen contractors who all have a yarn at the only existing local pub and talk about clients. 

    However in Miami where the POPULATION IS 417,650 the chances of two guys running into each other who even know me, is pretty low odds.

    Furthermore I would rather be known as the hard-*** businesswoman who doesn't just hand over an extra 1K because I'm too shy to stand up for myself.  

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  • James DeRoest
    Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
    11y

    I don't live in Century, I just value my privacy on the internet thank you.

    My response isn't ridiculous, you are throwing out unrealistic numbers at contractors and seem to be upset that you are getting screwed over. This is nothing but your own fault. You put yourself in that position, and now you seek sanctuary amongst other landlords about your "hard luck story".

    You have no right to be upset that a job you thought was going to cost $250 ended up costing $1400. Your $250 was unrealistic from the start.

    Being a hard *** business woman over $1k gets you no where. If you are worried about $1 k, then this isn't the business to be in.

    If $1kmeans so much to you, it shows that you are not a hard *** business woman, but someone who is broke, and who is doing rental properties on the cheap.

    You also seem to underestimate the importance of having reliable contractors and tradespeople you can call on. Again, this will bite you in the *** in the future.

    1Reply
  • George P.
    Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

    I don't live in Century, I just value my privacy on the internet thank you.

    My response isn't ridiculous, you are throwing out unrealistic numbers at contractors and seem to be upset that you are getting screwed over. This is nothing but your own fault. You put yourself in that position, and now you seek sanctuary amongst other landlords about your "hard luck story".

    You have no right to be upset that a job you thought was going to cost $250 ended up costing $1400. Your $250 was unrealistic from the start.

    Being a hard *** business woman over $1k gets you no where. If you are worried about $1 k, then this isn't the business to be in.

    If $1kmeans so much to you, it shows that you are not a hard *** business woman, but someone who is broke, and who is doing rental properties on the cheap.

    You also seem to underestimate the importance of having reliable contractors and tradespeople you can call on. Again, this will bite you in the *** in the future.

     i dont think you are being respectful. regardless of what her budget/approach is you can't criticize like this. if they thought the offer was too low, they didn't have to respond to her ad. it's simple.

    1Reply
  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

    I don't live in Century, I just value my privacy on the internet thank you.

    My response isn't ridiculous, you are throwing out unrealistic numbers at contractors and seem to be upset that you are getting screwed over. This is nothing but your own fault. You put yourself in that position, and now you seek sanctuary amongst other landlords about your "hard luck story".

    You have no right to be upset that a job you thought was going to cost $250 ended up costing $1400. Your $250 was unrealistic from the start.

    Being a hard *** business woman over $1k gets you no where. If you are worried about $1 k, then this isn't the business to be in.

    If $1kmeans so much to you, it shows that you are not a hard *** business woman, but someone who is broke, and who is doing rental properties on the cheap.

    You also seem to underestimate the importance of having reliable contractors and tradespeople you can call on. Again, this will bite you in the *** in the future.

     Not only are your responses ridiculous and meritless but you yourself are a highly questionable character. Claiming you need to hide your identity and location is suspicious. 

    This post was nothing about a 'hard luck story', it was about the ongoing battle with dishonest contractors and their tactics. In this case, a contractor who seemingly gave a low bid to get the job and then tried to multiply it by 5. He didn't give a bid that I bargained him down on, it was his original bid he gave me in writing.

    Furthermore, your statement that someone is not a business person if $1000 is something to worry about, is simply outrageous. A business person should be defined by their work ethic, motivation, ideas and experience, not by a dollar sign in front of their name.

    Look at all the people on BP who start out with little money to their name and get loans to start up their business. Does that make them any less of a business person? I think not.

    I value people with the courage and conviction to carry out their ideas. I also value honesty and integrity above all else.

    I have a never borrowed $1 in my life but I do own a dozen properties which I purchased with my own savings. I know how hard I worked to buy my properties so indeed I do not just throw away $1000 every week. No problemo if you don't view me as wealthy enough to be a business women. All we know about you is you are loitering on a website with a false identity.

    1Reply
  • Dana WhickerPro Member
    Investor · Fernandina Beach, FL · Member since 2014 · 557 posts · 374 votes
    11y

    A successful business person knows where every $1 is going, and absolutely is concerned about where $1k is going.

    1Reply
  • Nat C.
    OP
    Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dana Whicker:

    A successful business person knows where every $1 is going, and absolutely is concerned about where $1k is going.

     Exactly right.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    11y

    In Maryland , just to get a HVAC guy to show up its $ 125.00 to $ 175.00 an hour .  The compressor is 1 unit and the air handler is a separate " unit" . Unless the new air handler was the exact make and model of the old unit , changes to the plenum are required .  Wiring changed a bit , system needs to be charged etc .   I work with a HVAC guy , the compressor is the outside unit and the air handler is the inside unit , 2 units = 1 system .  No HVAC contractor is going to install a complete system for $ 250 labor only . Not even a guy doing side work is that low .  Depending what other supplies and changes were necessary a price of $ 1400  reasonable .  

    1Reply
  • Keith Belzner
    Nottingham, MD · Member since 2014 · 109 posts · 37 votes
    11y

    This quote from the original post has me the most concerned. As a contractor when someone "offers" me the price for a job any reputable contractor will run. You call them they come out and THEY give the price not the homeowner. Now if you want to haggle from there thats another story but they are the ones with the knowledge of your problem. If you want some laughs look up craigslist ads offering jobs for work at absurd prices, for example people have offered $10 per hour for someone to come out and install a deck, not kidding. 

    I have seen both sides, from a contractor and investor. Contractors will come to loathe investors who are cheap about everything and investors will complain that contractors are ripping everyone off. Cant we all just get along and make some money.

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