Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 3 votes
So my tenant moved in three weeks ago. Per the lease, she has 7 days to tell me what wrong with the house after move in day. A week gone by and I asked if she had found anything. She said no just minor scratches. I reminded her to give me the list which she said she made. A few days later I emailed her an inventory list to check off. She said she doesnt have a printer so I even printed it out for her. I came over and told her I would walk thru the house with her if she likes. Nope. She signed off the inventory list confirming that everything is satisfactory. Now three weeks later, she texted me regarding her squeaky fan above her bed. I told her to check the screws but she wanted me to come over and check it out. Also, according to my lease,any repair under $50 is really up to her to fix. Am I right for refusing to fix the fan? I could really fix it for her but it is a matter of principle. The fan only costs $30-40 to be replaced. Last time I checked, it was fine too. She also called me twice regarding the broken dishwasher. Really all she has to do was turn the valve on. I have been really nice to her in handling her service calls. However I don't think it is wise for me to make it comfortable for her to text me all the time for tiny repairs. I had since insisted that she should email mr for any future request.
Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y
@Phung N.as an aside, your $50 repair requirement is actually an illegal/unenforceable contractual clause in the state of NC and has no weight whatsoever. Here is the link to the NC department of justice LL tenant handbook. You'll take notice in part 4 "Carolina General Statute 42-42(b) states that a landlord cannot excuse himself from these duties through a special clause inserted into the lease."
Parts 2/3 deal with who is responsible for what, and "repairs" are on you. I know many people have said they use the $50 "tool, but it is unenforceable in residential situations.
Financial services executive · Frederick, MD · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 341 votes
10y
You should have a minimum repair call charge of $100 and every time they call you out there diligently send them a bill. They will learn soon enough it's an expensive proposition to interrupt your life over B.S.
Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
@JR T. in this situation what you are suggesting is illegal. Besides that it makes no business sense. None of the issues listed were the fault of the landlord. This is a good way to get a punitive damage claim. You have to decide what kind of business you are going to run, a break the rules suck everything out of them you can, or a good solid fair business. My experience is that the latter does better financially.
Financial services executive · Frederick, MD · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 341 votes
10y
@Jerry W. What about charging a repair deductible in your lease is illegal? I'm in court on my lease once or twice a month and the only place I've gotten judicial resistance is my "appearance fee" for having to send somebody to the hearing.
What makes you believe any tenant is entitled to a ceiling fan let alone one that doesn't squeak?
Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 251 posts · 123 votes
10y
Having been a renter in the past, I remember an incident where there was a leaking shower faucet. The property manager asked me if it was something I thought I could fix, as it was probably just a worn washer. I agreed and went ahead to replace that washer....something I have done numerous times on many different bathroom/kitchen faucets. Sadly, things did not turn out well. The house had been built in the 1950's. The nut to get access to the washer had rusted/bound/frozen or whatever. I applied WD40 and allowed it to sit overnight. And then I attempted to loosen the joint to replace the washer. It would not budge so I went big. The fact was, also, that at that time we had 5 people living with 2 bathrooms. One bathroom with multiple teenagers was untenable. As I applied force to try and loosen the joint, the copper pipe twisted instead, and a huge leak started spraying water everywhere. I shut down the water into the house but.....
Point being that now there was an emergency call to a plumber who actually knew what the hell they were doing. The cost of fixing what I screwed up was probably 10 times what a good plumber would have charged to do it right the first time, when not under time constraints because it needs to be fixed NOW.
Rental Property Investor · Higginson, AR · Member since 2015 · 123 posts · 101 votes
10y
I remove ceiling fans , replace with light fixtures on lower end rentals. On the upper end rentals just replace it during rehab. Honestly I don't want renters fixing stuff. it usually ends up costing me more. I do what is necessary to keep the cash flow moving.
Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
@JR T. I do not have much time so I cannot do this explanation much justice but here goes. There is an argument that you can contract for anything, and it is true, but not all contracts are enforceable. One of the most common "common law" or equity remedies is public policy. First you contracted to give someone housing for money. The housing must meet certain requirements. You are forcing the tenant to fix your property they did not injure. Again you can contract for anything but I do not see any judges going along with that. This is not a major corporation you are dealing with, it is probably a below average income person without any special legal knowledge. To say you will bill a tenant to call you for defects with your house is not reasonable. Courts do not enforce things like saying tenants have to get your permission to date or to buy a ford not a chevy, etc. You can put in a contract but no court will enforce it. That is the against public policy remedy they can envoke. Once a court moves into an equity ruling, not a law ruling they can hammer you pretty hard. Why go there? Unless folks are desperate folks will stop renting from landlords like that and the quality of tenants that landlord gets will continue to go down in quality, and the more the courts will sympathize with them. I have been a judge, and a pretty conservative one. I would never allow a clause like that to stand and I bet your judges are way more liberal than I am. There is a somewhat famous case where Campbell soup company did contracts with local farmers to raise a certain kind of carrot they used in their soup. They had a clause that prohibited the farmers from selling the carrots to anyone but them, and Campbell did not have to buy all of the carrots the farmers raised. So if Campbell only bought half of the farmers crop they could not sell their remaining crop commercially to anyone else. The courts struck that down as against public policy. I will not go into the specific laws violated in the jurisdiction in question, but the cite was posted.
One more thing. I have been a landlord for over 20 years, and I have never been in court over one of my contracts except to evict. Why are you in court once or twice a month over yours? Think of the money you could save by spending your time doing something else. I hope this helps.
Whenever the replacement cost is equal or lower than the labor cost, good heavens, REPLACE with new and just get it over.
We're in a whole new world when it comes to cheap replacement parts. The $35-$75 HD bathroom faucet is never worth fixing for leaks. The $15 toilet tank kit is never worth repairing just the chain or flapper. I always ask the guys to have that stuff on the truck before they show up at the job, to avoid the back and forth and the puttering that goes with minute repairs. I have a $150 wall mount faucet in my vintage kitchen that I've replaced 3 times in the last 12 years. I don't have the tools or parts or talent to take apart the faucet, which usually has hard water corrosion and replace the washers. But I know how to install a new one. $150 for a new faucet is cheaper than the drop charge for the plumbers here.
Financial services executive · Frederick, MD · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 341 votes
10y
@Jerry W. So I guess the point of all that was to acknowledge that it's perfectly legal to charge a repair deductible, you just choose not to do so. When you give a tenant something in good and working order they should maintain it in that condition or bear at least the first $100 of the expense to repair it. I don't apologize for treating landlording as a business.
You should have a minimum repair call charge of $100 and every time they call you out there diligently send them a bill. They will learn soon enough it's an expensive proposition to interrupt your life over B.S.
In what jurisdiction is that allowed? Or are you just shooting from the hip? You can't hold tenants responsible for maintenance or repairs. Even for damage that is tenant cause, you need good lease clauses that outlines who will repair it and how you will be reimbursed. After the tenant backs into your garage, damaging both the stucco and the new garage door, you don't want them to live with it or call someone to fix it without contacting you first. You or your PM is the decision maker for repairs, not your tenant.
@Jerry W. What about charging a repair deductible in your lease is illegal? I'm in court on my lease once or twice a month and the only place I've gotten judicial resistance is my "appearance fee" for having to send somebody to the hearing.
What makes you believe any tenant is entitled to a ceiling fan let alone one that doesn't squeak?
Gotta know more about your "repair deductible". How many times have you been awarded a judgment that included a fee titled "repair deductible"? And of those times, how many times did the tenant appear in court to defend the fees? Or were they all default cases.
Appearing in court 1-2 times per month is something that means the model isn't working IMO. You don't own that many units per your other threads. What in the world are you doing in court 1 or 2 times per month?
@Jerry W. So I guess the point of all that was to acknowledge that it's perfectly legal to charge a repair deductible, you just choose not to do so. When you give a tenant something in good and working order they should maintain it in that condition or bear at least the first $100 of the expense to repair it. I don't apologize for treating landlording as a business.
I don't buy it. If your tenant's faucet starts to leak through no fault of their own, you're saying they have to pay the first $100 of the repair visit/cost in order that they "maintain it" in the condition it was received. A ceiling stain caused by a leak? You repair the roof, but hold the tenant for the $100 to prime and repaint the stain, since the ceiling is to be maintained in the condition it was received?
You're blowing hard on what is legal and what is not. Any supporting code or case law? Anything other than your interpretation? Any local landlord association guidelines that support your practice here?
Financial services executive · Frederick, MD · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 341 votes
10y
@k.
@Account Closed The amounts of the deductible are considered additional rent in my lease. And I've won them many times as inclusions in the rent balance due. I'm in landlord tenant court to evict tenants because my tenants are low income and hit bumps in the road where they can't pay. In Maryland they have a right of redemption (and we're always happy to let them redeem). An eviction costs $25 including having the Sheriff serve it and no lawyer is necessary. Anybody that hasn't paid by the 5th gets an eviction filing on the 6th.
@Account Closed The amounts of the deductible are considered additional rent in my lease. And I've won them many times as inclusions in the rent balance due. I'm in landlord tenant court to evict tenants because my tenants are low income and hit bumps in the road where they can't pay. In Maryland they have a right of redemption (and we're always happy to let them redeem). An eviction costs $25 including having the Sheriff serve it and no lawyer is necessary. Anybody that hasn't paid by the 5th gets an eviction filing on the 6th.
Welcome to aggressive financial management.
Whoa. You're charging tenants a "repair deductible" but calling it "additional rent" in the complaint you file in court? Are you sure you want that info on a public forum?
@Jerry W. I'm dying here. How is this aggressive financial management? Looks like gouging and perjury to me.
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
@Account Closed
Lol. Since I know you are a big fan of what Texas allows....... The Texas Association of Realtors lease actually has a clause to allow a charge of the first $XX of a repair to the tenant. Personally, I have never exercised it
Lol. Since I know you are a big fan of what Texas allows....... The Texas Association of Realtors lease actually has a clause to allow a charge of the first $XX of a repair to the tenant. Personally, I have never exercised it.
So true. I have a fascination with what CA would be like without all the extreme consumer protections. I'll take CA any day, but TX is still the Wild West to me.
Lol. Since I know you are a big fan of what Texas allows....... The Texas Association of Realtors lease actually has a clause to allow a charge of the first $XX of a repair to the tenant. Personally, I have never exercised it
I wanted to read the actual clause but found this on a Realtor site:
"In some of the older versions of the lease, there was a requirement for the tenant to pay a deductible for repairs to the property. The Texas Association of REALTORS® deleted that paragraph as it was inappropriately applied to all requested repairs. Some property managers are putting that verbiage into the Special Provisions of the lease but it should not be applied to all repairs."
The TX Realtor Board had to delete the deductible clause because it was being abused. Imagine that. :)
Lol. Since I know you are a big fan of what Texas allows....... The Texas Association of Realtors lease actually has a clause to allow a charge of the first $XX of a repair to the tenant. Personally, I have never exercised it
I wanted to read the actual clause but found this on a Realtor site:
"In some of the older versions of the lease, there was a requirement for the tenant to pay a deductible for repairs to the property. The Texas Association of REALTORS® deleted that paragraph as it was inappropriately applied to all requested repairs. Some property managers are putting that verbiage into the Special Provisions of the lease but it should not be applied to all repairs."
The TX Realtor Board had to delete the deductible clause because it was being abused. Imagine that. :)
I pulled up and you are correct it is not in the newest revision. I was never in favor of doing it. Say a tenant replaces the ceiling fan and screws up the wiring, that $75 ceiling fan repair saved can cause much much more. Or does the landlord have liability if the tenant falls of the ladder ?
Professional Auctioneer · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
A tenant is a customer - treat them with respect - fix or replace the fan -- ask her for a list of any other issues she may have -- ask her if she needs a few gl. of paint.
Financial services executive · Frederick, MD · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 341 votes
10y
@K.
@Account Closed In Maryland you can have any sum the tenant comes to owe you during the course of their tenancy become "additional rent" under the lease. A properly crafted lease gives you great standing in the courts here.
So my tenant moved in three weeks ago. Per the lease, she has 7 days to tell me what wrong with the house after move in day. A week gone by and I asked if she had found anything. She said no just minor scratches. I reminded her to give me the list which she said she made. A few days later I emailed her an inventory list to check off. She said she doesnt have a printer so I even printed it out for her. I came over and told her I would walk thru the house with her if she likes. Nope. She signed off the inventory list confirming that everything is satisfactory. Now three weeks later, she texted me regarding her squeaky fan above her bed. I told her to check the screws but she wanted me to come over and check it out. Also, according to my lease,any repair under $50 is really up to her to fix. Am I right for refusing to fix the fan? I could really fix it for her but it is a matter of principle. The fan only costs $30-40 to be replaced. Last time I checked, it was fine too. She also called me twice regarding the broken dishwasher. Really all she has to do was turn the valve on. I have been really nice to her in handling her service calls. However I don't think it is wise for me to make it comfortable for her to text me all the time for tiny repairs. I had since insisted that she should email mr for any future request.
Call a fan person to take care of it, and anything over $50, you pay for. Anything under, she pays for. Same for the dishwasher. Paying $50 here and there, eventually, she'll get tired of sweating the small stuff or she'll just fix it herself.
Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
OK @JR T. this is getting frustrating as I typed out a huge reply and firefox crashed and I lost it. Forgive me if I become a bit irritated.
You apparently were unable to comprehend what I was trying to explain earlier to you. This is clearly because you lack a basic understanding of some of the principles involved, so I will try to go into more basics. I did not say your lease was illegal as your somewhat flippant answer implied. I said you advised her to do an illegal act. The first issue is Lex Locus Delecti, or place of injury. The law that applies is the law of the place where the rental unit sits which is North Carolina. Look at the location of the original poster. You may understand it better if I say the jurisdiction involved, but maybe not. Here is what the North Carolina statutes say:
The landlord is not released of his obligations under any part of this section by the tenant's explicit or implicit acceptance of the landlord's failure to provide premises complying with this section, whether done before the lease was made, when it was made, or after it was made, unless a governmental subdivision imposes an impediment to repair for a specific period of time not to exceed six months. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, the landlord and tenant are not prohibited from making a subsequent written contract wherein the tenant agrees to perform specified work on the premises, provided that said contract is supported by adequate consideration other than the letting of the premises and is not made with the purpose or effect of evading the landlord's obligations under this Article. (1977, c. 770, s. 1; 1995, c. 111, s. 2; 1998-212, s. 17.16(i); 2004-143, s. 3; 2008-219, ss. 2, 6; 2009-279, s. 3; 2010-97, s. 6(a); 2012-92, s. 1.)
This statute says that a landlord cannot put the obligation of doing repairs on the tenant unless there is compensation to the tenant for doing so. So if an electrical outlet shorts out or the furnace quits working or a waterline breaks, etc. You cannot put the obligation to fix it on the tenant. Making a tenant pay for a repair they are not at fault for is making them responsible for the repair. It is illegal.
You gave legal advice you are not qualified to give, you are clearly not a lawyer, I can easily tell that by your lack of understanding of even the basics involved here. You advocated that someone put a clause in their contract, that contract would have been illegal. In fairness to you you did not know you were advising her to break the law, you simply knew too little to realize how bad of a mistake you were making. You don't know what you don't know, just like I don't know what I don't know. The problem comes when you believe you know things you do not and so someone gets hurt as a result of your advice. I presume you truly meant well and were not just trying to say things with no regard to their truthfulness or accuracy. It is fine to give generic advice or say things like raise your rents. Medicine and law are two very bad places to give advice however when you are not qualified.
I did not tell you your contract was legal, I did not tell you tour contract was illegal. I did not look up Maryland law. I told you how a reasonably competent attorney could probably get your provision struck down using a principle of common law. Please stop and think before you give advice next time if you are truly experienced enough in that area to give advice. None of us know everything, but it helps to get to the point where you know that you don't know. I truly do not mean this as a slight to you in any way. You appear to be doing well in business and I hope you continue to do well and expand. Please think about a different approach to your business but you are the sole judge of what is best for you. This would be a dull world if everyone thought exactly alike, and I would probably have to pump gas for a living if everyone acted the way I thought they should instead of doing lawsuits or putting folks in jail. Please keep in mind that folks like @Account Closed are also just trying to help. There is a huge amount of experience that can help folks learn from mistakes they have done or seen rather than learn from making their own mistakes. Anyway it has been a long day. I wish you well and I wish you understanding.
So my tenant moved in three weeks ago. Per the lease, she has 7 days to tell me what wrong with the house after move in day. A week gone by and I asked if she had found anything. She said no just minor scratches. I reminded her to give me the list which she said she made. A few days later I emailed her an inventory list to check off. She said she doesnt have a printer so I even printed it out for her. I came over and told her I would walk thru the house with her if she likes. Nope. She signed off the inventory list confirming that everything is satisfactory. Now three weeks later, she texted me regarding her squeaky fan above her bed. I told her to check the screws but she wanted me to come over and check it out. Also, according to my lease,any repair under $50 is really up to her to fix. Am I right for refusing to fix the fan? I could really fix it for her but it is a matter of principle. The fan only costs $30-40 to be replaced. Last time I checked, it was fine too. She also called me twice regarding the broken dishwasher. Really all she has to do was turn the valve on. I have been really nice to her in handling her service calls. However I don't think it is wise for me to make it comfortable for her to text me all the time for tiny repairs. I had since insisted that she should email mr for any future request.
Problem #1 - letting the tenant tell you that everything is good????
You should do a walk through with your tenant on the day they take possession, you should have a document listing every item in every room that can have a rating applied to it and a rating you both agree to, both of you sign it, both get a copy, at move out you return with your copy and rewalk the property and go over what is now broken or abused.
Bedroom1 Light switches, light switch covers Walls Windows Closet Door Carpet Wood Work Ceiling Fan
Ratings should be poor,fair,excellent- you should be able to mark the excellent box on everything.
Problem #2 - allowing tenants to text you. No way. Email or phone call only.
Problem #3 - allowing tenants to do your minor maintenance for you which means nothing is going to be done, the minor things will turn into major things, the tenant eventually looks around at all the minor crappy things that lead to thinking about moving out of her crappy place with all the minor crap wrong with it that adds up. Happy tenants are tenants living in a place that is so nice they know they've got it good, why move, everything is awesome here? Renters are lazy, that's why they rent, help make it easy on them to stay.
Fix all the issues she has in the 1st month, after that she should settle in and maybe bother you about 1 or 2 things in the next 18 months, if she is bothering you a lot more than that, either your place was a dump and you set yourself up for failure by not getting it properly rent ready, or she is a pain in the *** and it will never end and start making plans for a huge rent increase at the next lease or tell her you won't be renewing. Then figure out how you should be screening your potential renters better.