Deposit returns for inherited tenants?

Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes

Hello Beautiful people of BP,

So I had 3 tenants vacate at the end of last month. One was evicted, so no deposit return there, the other two left after their leases ended.

One of the two left the apartment disgusting. She did not take all her property out, nothing cleaned, animal feces and feces stains on the floor, carpet ruined. I do not intend to return the deposit to her.

The other tenant actually did a good job cleaning, but living room carpet has big dark spot in it, I assume it can't be removed. But more to he point, the main entry door jamb is trashed. So is the upstairs bedroom door jamb, and the main floor bedroom door is jacked to the point it can't close. This tenant has inquired about the deposit return, and did clean it well (carpets excepted). For the record, lots of pics were taken.

So my question is how to handle the last tenant. I have no proof of the condition the apartment was in when they moved in. I can't believe the doors were in that bad of shape. I've heard from other tenants that her and her boyfriend fought often and loudly and I suspect that's how the doors got damaged. If I pay someone to fix those doors, that alone would probably take the deposit.

How would you handle a situation like that?

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Mike CumbieBusiness Member

REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

10y

Hi @Dustin Beam,

I wish you the best. In this case though you may have to eat it. Sure you could say the carpets were cleaner and there was no staining on it, but when the judge looks at you and says "What proof do you have that there was not this big old stain and these door jams were serviceable"? What are you going to say?

I am not sure if Kansas is a state that awards triple damages but just imagine getting a bill for 3 times the security deposit from them both?

"Your honor, when I moved in there was animal feces on the floor and all that stuff I left was in there"

When he looks at you he is going to be looking for something/anything to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you say you never even saw it when they moved in. His hands will be tied.

Best of luck!

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Michael J.
Rental Property Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 123 votes
10y
In most states you still need to send them a accounting statement for the deposit to their last known good address get delivery confirmation from the post office, even if they don't get anything back. If they decided to sue for it and you don't send that you will lose.
When you bought the property transferring the deposit should have been part of the deal, if not then your real estate agent and/or the title company did a bad job. The title company should have made sure that the lease and deposits were handed over.
If that was not part of the deal then I would go back to the previous owner and politely ask for the deposits and any documentation they have on the condition of the units before the current tenants moved in and hopefully they will have enough decency to give you what you deserve.
In the future always make sure that deposits, leases, any documentation related to the tenants is handed over or at least know up front if that is not going to be provided and adjust the price accordingly.
It stinks but you need to make sure you cover yourself in a situation like this. In most cases you can probably come up with enough charges for damages to eat the deposit but without proof of the condition it may not stand up if it goes to court.
2 Reply
Austin Lazanowski
Lakeland, FL · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 11 votes
10y
well, this is why move in checklists and condition sign off reports are important - without proof of what it was like prior to them moving in, then you're just opening yourself up to the situation. If you have multiple tenants sharing, you also have to make sure to indicate that any damage to the common areas would be considered a joint responsibility, otherwise again you're hurting yourself. If they seemed responsible, then you need to give them a break - just go after the others for overages and make it stick (even if they cant pay you back, you can prevent them from doing it again if people do background checks).
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
@Michael J. I was transferred deposits, but there were no move in checklists done by the prior landlord. I certainly understand the value of them, but I obviously wasn't in control then so not much I can do. I don't think it's in any way reasonable to assume the door jambs were destroyed the way they were when they moved in. I mean the front door isn't even safe. The upstairs door jamb is split wide open
0 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Austin Lazanowski:

well, this is why move in checklists and condition sign off reports are important - without proof of what it was like prior to them moving in, then you're just opening yourself up to the situation. If you have multiple tenants sharing, you also have to make sure to indicate that any damage to the common areas would be considered a joint responsibility, otherwise again you're hurting yourself. If they seemed responsible, then you need to give them a break - just go after the others for overages and make it stick (even if they cant pay you back, you can prevent them from doing it again if people do background checks).
There was only one person on the lease, I think her boyfriend may or may not have lived with her. So in this case, the condition of the apartment is solely on her.
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Austin Lazanowski
Lakeland, FL · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 11 votes
10y
@Dustin Beam - Yea, that type of damage i assume is probably their responsibility and reasonable tenants moving in would have most likely mentioned something. Harder to say on the carpet, but the door jams i would definitely say is highly likely their fault.
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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
Hi @Dustin Beam,
I wish you the best. In this case though you may have to eat it. Sure you could say the carpets were cleaner and there was no staining on it, but when the judge looks at you and says "What proof do you have that there was not this big old stain and these door jams were serviceable"? What are you going to say?
I am not sure if Kansas is a state that awards triple damages but just imagine getting a bill for 3 times the security deposit from them both?
"Your honor, when I moved in there was animal feces on the floor and all that stuff I left was in there"
When he looks at you he is going to be looking for something/anything to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you say you never even saw it when they moved in. His hands will be tied.
Best of luck!
3 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Austin Lazanowski:
@Dustin Beam - Yea, that type of damage i assume is probably their responsibility and reasonable tenants moving in would have most likely mentioned something. Harder to say on the carpet, but the door jams i would definitely say is highly likely their fault.
I don't really know how to handle the carpet. It seems like a gray area type of thing. The pice below doesn't show it well, but you can see were the "couch line" (ie clean area) is along the wall. The apartment was cleaned but smells of dog poop and I've visually seen dog poop on the floor. The previous landlord told me they put in new carpet for every tenant. I believe them because they offered to sell me a bunch of carpet for cheap if I wanted it and when I went to see the apartments for the first time, they were putting new carpet in. I guess I don't know what is "normal wear and tear" for deposit purposes.
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Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:

Hi @Dustin Beam,
I wish you the best. In this case though you may have to eat it. Sure you could say the carpets were cleaner and there was no staining on it, but when the judge looks at you and says "What proof do you have that there was not this big old stain and these door jams were serviceable"? What are you going to say?
I am not sure if Kansas is a state that awards triple damages but just imagine getting a bill for 3 times the security deposit from them both?
"Your honor, when I moved in there was animal feces on the floor and all that stuff I left was in there"
When he looks at you he is going to be looking for something/anything to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you say you never even saw it when they moved in. His hands will be tied.
Best of luck!
I don't like your advice, but I do see your point! lol However, wouldn't they need to prove that the original jambs were destroyed just as much as I would need to show that they weren't?
FWIW, this property is in Missouri. I may contact my attorney to get some advice.
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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
I know I don't like my advice either, wish I had something else to give you.
Since you want to maintain the deposit you have the burden of proof. They don't have to prove it wasn't in excellent shape, you have to prove it was in better shape than it is now. From what I see in Missouri
3. The landlord may withhold from the security deposit only such amounts as are reasonably necessary for the following reasons:
(1) To remedy a tenant's default in the payment of rent due to the landlord, pursuant to the rental agreement;
(2) To restore the dwelling unit to its condition at the commencement of the tenancy, ordinary wear and tear excepted; or
(3) To compensate the landlord for actual damages sustained as a result of the tenant's failure to give adequate notice to terminate the tenancy pursuant to law or the rental agreement; provided that the landlord makes reasonable efforts to mitigate damages.
4. The landlord shall give the tenant or his representative reasonable notice in writing at his last known address or in person of the date and time when the landlord will inspect the dwelling unit following the termination of the rental agreement to determine the amount of the security deposit to be withheld, and the inspection shall be held at a reasonable time. The tenant shall have the right to be present at the inspection of the dwelling unit at the time and date scheduled by the landlord.
5. If the landlord wrongfully withholds all or any portion of the security deposit in violation of this section, the tenant shall recover as damages not more than twice the amount wrongfully withheld.
The problem I see is you don't have anything backing up "At the commencement of the tenancy" (In either unit). The seller just kind of left you hanging out there and I doubt would be willing to walk into court or testify if asked (for less than the deposit anyway).
I wish you the best
DISCLAIMER: Not legal advice, just the mindless ramblings of some dolt off the internet. Anything said should most likely be discarded as some form of shock induced psychosis.
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Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
I hear you @Mike Cumbie, I'll contact the seller to see if by chance there was any checklists they never told me about. I'll also review the existing lease to see if there are any statements to condition of the apartment. And then thirdly I'll contact my attorney to see how these things are typically awarded should it go to court. He should know pretty well about those things.
Thanks for the advice.
2 Reply
Brandt Smith
Cypress, TX · Member since 2016 · 132 posts · 49 votes
10y
@Dustin Beam make a detailed accounting of the repairs that were needed and deduct from their deposit. If they fight it in court you may lose but 95% will just walk away, especially if you are fair about it and don't try to take advantage of them.
2 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Brandt Smith:

@Dustin Beam make a detailed accounting of the repairs that were needed and deduct from their deposit. If they fight it in court you may lose but 95% will just walk away, especially if you are fair about it and don't try to take advantage of them.
This may be what I do depending on my attorney's advice. And I don't simply intend to just take their whole deposit if it's not needed. If a maintenance person and/or cleaning crew can get it all done for less, I'll of course return the difference.
This is in no way a money grab, I just don't see how these conditions were anything other than their fault.
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Wade Sikkink
Real Estate Investor · Lincoln, NE · Member since 2013 · 584 posts · 353 votes
10y
Brandt hit the nail on the head. Odds are they did the damage and they know it. Send them a deposit statement showing the deductions for the damage and that they are getting no deposit returned to them. It is an extremely low probability that they will take you to court over it. And if they did and tried to tell the judge there was feces on the floor when they moved in, as someone above suggested they might, the judge will laugh them out of court.
Good luck.
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Wade Sikkink:

Brandt hit the nail on the head. Odds are they did the damage and they know it. Send them a deposit statement showing the deductions for the damage and that they are getting no deposit returned to them. It is an extremely low probability that they will take you to court over it. And if they did and tried to tell the judge there was feces on the floor when they moved in, as someone above suggested they might, the judge will laugh them out of court.
Good luck.
Point taken and thanks for the advice, but for the sake of clarity, the feces on the floor and the broken door jamb apartments were separate. I dont' foresee any issues keeping the deposit on the feces floor for the reasons you outlined. No judge would believe a person moved into that.
1 Reply
Ralph R.
Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
10y
@Dustin Beam
Okay I have a different view here. Yes I agree the doors were probably damaged by the tenant, but how is it you didn't know about them prior to purchase and their move out? did you do or have a property inspection done prior to your buying the property?? do you ever do a walk through inspection of the property?? did the tenants sign an estopple agreement prior to your purchase?
The carpets are negligible at best. who knows who put the stain there. That one is best to just move past. I don't know many landlords that like carpet. unless you own a carpet store get rid of it. Replace it with something more durable like linoleum or laminate flooring. Something that you don't have to pay a professional to clean between tenants.
Fix the damage and keep whatever damage deposit you can prove was done by the tenant which doesn't sound like much as you don't have any move in check list. Basically its all your word against theirs. When you buy you need to check the property out for this type of stuff. Had this damage been found during your due diligence it would have been between the seller and the tenant, and maybe a negotiation point between you and the seller. As it is it's your puppy. Its a hard lesson sometimes but remember your in business for yourself and its hardball we are playing here. A little carpet and a couple door jams are pretty cheap tuition.
I would be more concerned as to why you lost 2 tenants and had to evict one in this short of a time. The seller wasn't a very good landlord as he let one bad tenant past his screening and 2 more tear the place up. It makes me wonder what else he missed or was hiding?? What deferred maintenance is there? How many other poor tenants are there?? There may be more lessons to be learned here before its over.
RR
2 Reply
Darren Budahn
Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 811 posts · 420 votes
10y
I think you're rolling the dice if you try to take the SD for the carpet stain and the broken door jambs. If he decided to take you to court, my money is on him winning. It's probably very likely that he caused the damage, but you have zero proof he that he caused it. Maybe give him a call and tell him you will give him a pass on the carpet stain but tell him you will have to charge him for the doors. See what he says. Maybe he'd be open to a compromise. But if he balks, I wouldn't fight it.
3 Reply
Kelly N.
Investor · SE, MI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 461 votes
10y
I have run into situations like this, most tenants don't bother with the move in condition sheets, and most landlords preparing to sell don't seem to either. I have only ever received one condition sheet from a seller. I have come to expect to be looking at pictures taken during the walk through and inspections we did while purchasing the property, but not all damages can be seen in them (furniture may be blocking a hole punched in the wall, for example). So, I make the repairs when they move out, and deduct for anything that is obviously the exiting tenant's issue (trash and belongings left in the apartment mostly).
Another issue has been cleanliness- I am finding lots of landlords that don't ensure a unit is clean prior to new tenants moving in. They either then clean it themselves, live in filth, or one smart young lady paid to have her apartment professionally cleaned and then deducted the charge from her rent. So we don't expect to get an apartment from an inherited tenant returned in pristine condition, but have had wonderful results when tenants we placed in CLEAN units move out- they clean!
We bought one 4 unit and found once the tenants moved out as their leases ended that every interior door in the place had multiple holes in it. Every.Single.Door. Most were hidden with items hanging on the door, hooks mounted on boards, mirrors screwed into the door, etc. I would have loved to bill the cost of replacing doors to someone else, but since it was in all 4 apartments it couldn't be the current tenants. We have been replacing them all with solid doors- I can't stand hollow cores!
3 Reply
Corey Arnemann
Investor · Edmonton, Alberta · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 24 votes
10y
Hi there, I see lots of great suggestions here, some are what I would also use. One of the hardest parts about being a landlord is confronting tenants about issues, especially about move outs and damages involved.
My advice is to have some quotes for each issue on how to return them to fixed or cleaned, then go over each issue with the tenant on your plan to fix the issues and the costs and that the security deposit will pay for the issues, even discuss your attempt to save them money (If you can). Typically, good tenants are good people, and they already feel bad about wrecking your house, and will be glad you discussed the issues with them. I always ask the tenants after the discussion, does this sound fair to you? This lets them have a chance to tell you how they are feelings, and concerns. Usually its fair, but this is great for knowing if a court action will follow or not. Typically not.
Now of course, if you had a walk in inspection, you could go a different route, by just fixing everything needed, deducting the security deposit, providing the tenants with the statement of the charges, and move on, but try negotiation first before flexing your landlord muscles. Less headaches, and a better conscience :)
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Ralph R.:
@Dustin Beam
Okay I have a different view here. Yes I agree the doors were probably damaged by the tenant, but how is it you didn't know about them prior to purchase and their move out? did you do or have a property inspection done prior to your buying the property?? do you ever do a walk through inspection of the property?? did the tenants sign an estopple agreement prior to your purchase?
The carpets are negligible at best. who knows who put the stain there. That one is best to just move past. I don't know many landlords that like carpet. unless you own a carpet store get rid of it. Replace it with something more durable like linoleum or laminate flooring. Something that you don't have to pay a professional to clean between tenants.
Fix the damage and keep whatever damage deposit you can prove was done by the tenant which doesn't sound like much as you don't have any move in check list. Basically its all your word against theirs. When you buy you need to check the property out for this type of stuff. Had this damage been found during your due diligence it would have been between the seller and the tenant, and maybe a negotiation point between you and the seller. As it is it's your puppy. Its a hard lesson sometimes but remember your in business for yourself and its hardball we are playing here. A little carpet and a couple door jams are pretty cheap tuition.
I would be more concerned as to why you lost 2 tenants and had to evict one in this short of a time. The seller wasn't a very good landlord as he let one bad tenant past his screening and 2 more tear the place up. It makes me wonder what else he missed or was hiding?? What deferred maintenance is there? How many other poor tenants are there?? There may be more lessons to be learned here before its over.
RR
I'll try to answer questions in the order you asked.
I did go through the property before purchasing of course, but can't say for certain if the jambs were damaged before or after my inspection. I'd lean towards no add I would have noticed, but can't confirm.
I would agree that the carpet in the apartment w/ door jamb damage is not something to worry about, and yes vinyl plank tile is going in all units as they empty.
As far as tenant loss goes, one was evicted for never paying once I took over. She claimed health reasons, and I gave her every opportunity to work it out with me, but she never did and mostly ignored me when I reached out. The second tenant with the feces in the carpet bought a house after her lease ran out. Actually she went month to month for a couple months because she knew she was buying a house. The third simply had her lease expire and she moved. Whatcha gonna do? Keep in mind this is with 12 total units, so it is a lot, it's not like 3 units of a single 4plex emptied.
And there is a lot of deferred maintenance, he kinda duct taped and bubble gummed a lot of stuff, BUT things were "repaired" in all things I've found. Just not repaired well IMHO. So I dont' believe he'd have left completely busted up jambs nor do I believe the tenants would have moved into an apartment like that.
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Darren Budahn:

I think you're rolling the dice if you try to take the SD for the carpet stain and the broken door jambs. If he decided to take you to court, my money is on him winning. It's probably very likely that he caused the damage, but you have zero proof he that he caused it.
Maybe give him a call and tell him you will give him a pass on the carpet stain but tell him you will have to charge him for the doors. See what he says. Maybe he'd be open to a compromise. But if he balks, I wouldn't fight it.
I may do something like this. I called my attorney to see how the courts handle these situations, but his message said he'll be out of town for a few days so I'll have to wait impatiently (ha) until then.
0 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Kelly N.:

I have run into situations like this, most tenants don't bother with the move in condition sheets, and most landlords preparing to sell don't seem to either. I have only ever received one condition sheet from a seller. I have come to expect to be looking at pictures taken during the walk through and inspections we did while purchasing the property, but not all damages can be seen in them (furniture may be blocking a hole punched in the wall, for example). So, I make the repairs when they move out, and deduct for anything that is obviously the exiting tenant's issue (trash and belongings left in the apartment mostly).
Another issue has been cleanliness- I am finding lots of landlords that don't ensure a unit is clean prior to new tenants moving in. They either then clean it themselves, live in filth, or one smart young lady paid to have her apartment professionally cleaned and then deducted the charge from her rent. So we don't expect to get an apartment from an inherited tenant returned in pristine condition, but have had wonderful results when tenants we placed in CLEAN units move out- they clean!
We bought one 4 unit and found once the tenants moved out as their leases ended that every interior door in the place had multiple holes in it. Every.Single.Door. Most were hidden with items hanging on the door, hooks mounted on boards, mirrors screwed into the door, etc. I would have loved to bill the cost of replacing doors to someone else, but since it was in all 4 apartments it couldn't be the current tenants. We have been replacing them all with solid doors- I can't stand hollow cores!
Yes, I will handle things differently (and have so far) than the previous LL. I will have checklists done w/ me at time they get the keys with me present. That will be part of the process. But these headaches happen I guess when you take over (my first so no experience with it).
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Corey Arnemann:

Hi there, I see lots of great suggestions here, some are what I would also use. One of the hardest parts about being a landlord is confronting tenants about issues, especially about move outs and damages involved.
My advice is to have some quotes for each issue on how to return them to fixed or cleaned, then go over each issue with the tenant on your plan to fix the issues and the costs and that the security deposit will pay for the issues, even discuss your attempt to save them money (If you can). Typically, good tenants are good people, and they already feel bad about wrecking your house, and will be glad you discussed the issues with them. I always ask the tenants after the discussion, does this sound fair to you? This lets them have a chance to tell you how they are feelings, and concerns. Usually its fair, but this is great for knowing if a court action will follow or not. Typically not.
Now of course, if you had a walk in inspection, you could go a different route, by just fixing everything needed, deducting the security deposit, providing the tenants with the statement of the charges, and move on, but try negotiation first before flexing your landlord muscles. Less headaches, and a better conscience :)
I agree you typically catch more bees w/ honey than w/ vinegar! :) In my short time as a landlord I can tell you that it works that way with me. If a tenant is respectful and courteous, I'm much more receptive/lenient on what they're asking for.
0 Reply
Ralph R.
Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
10y
@Dustin Beam all true but the reason for the walk through is to see things like door jams. Does your lease allow pets? I hope you bought the apartments at a cheap price because poor maintenance ican be worse in the long run than no Maintenance. I wish you the best of luck. Sounds to me like you have a project on your hands though. RR
1 Reply
Dustin Beam
OP
Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Ralph R.:

@Dustin Beam all true but the reason for the walk through is to see things like door jams. Does your lease allow pets? I hope you bought the apartments at a cheap price because poor maintenance ican be worse in the long run than no Maintenance. I wish you the best of luck. Sounds to me like you have a project on your hands though. RR
They were allowed to have pets per previous lease. I won't allow pets going forward (unless I find the local market demands that I do in order to get them rented, and if that happens, no dogs in any scenario).
Define "cheap" haha. They appraised around $40k more than I paid for them, so at worst I bought them at a fair price. I've spend $16k on exterior repairs and paint and would expect that to appreciate the property more than dollar for dollar.
I do have a project on my hands! :) And I'd be a liar if I said I've handled it stress free. Every dollar I've made over the last 3 months have gone back into the property and haven't yet had to put "personal" money into it. All from the business account. I should be very close to starting to see very good returns, at least I hope. The exterior paint and repairs really set me back.
0 Reply
Michael Henry
Real Estate Consultant · Brookfield, WI · Member since 2014 · 873 posts · 350 votes
10y
Dustin,
My thoughts is just be fair and reasonable about it have a conversation they may bend some in your direction. Me personally in the last case I would just eat the cost and promptly move on. Why? According to your own statements, there are a number a assumptions, best/educated guesses and even hearsay however you can't say with 100% certainty that the doors and frames or the carpets were or were not in the condition of your photos at move in.
Point is pick your battles wisesly and cover all your bases with the next round of tennants.
Thanks,
MH
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