Circuit Breaker Keeps Flipping

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Circuit Breaker Keeps Flipping

Art M.
Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes

The bottom unit of my duplex is a 2BR and both bedrooms are on one circuit breaker. Most of the other breakers are a 20V but this one is a 15V. The tenant says that it keeps flipping and all he has plugged in is a modem, TV, and CPAP machine (this might use a lot of power, but what am I gonna do?). He’s tried hitting the “reset” button a few times and it’ll hold for half a day and flip again.

Does anyone have an idea of what the issue is and how much it’ll cost me to fix? I spoke with an electrician and he’s making it sound like this is going to be a seriously expensive endeavor. He says:

“Unfortunately you may have a very large issue. The system I suspect may have never been wired correctly to begin with and that is unfortunately a common problem. To solve this is a 2 part solution. Step a is to replace the breaker and a have preliminary look around which takes a few man hours typically. About 80 percent of the time problem solved.

If not step 2 we have to completely rewire the circuit that breaker controls which typically takes 2 men 30 to 90 minutes each box we have to pull through. This step typically takes 2 guys about a day sometimes longer. Sorry about the bad news but we need to be upfront about it.

Let me know if you have any questions or if are prepared to proceed.”

I don’t know anything about electrical work. It took me 2 hours to replace one of those test button outlets last weekend and I was pretty proud of myself… I have no way of knowing if they’re trying to rip me off or do unnecessary work. How would you suggest I proceed?

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Randall Brown
Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 39 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Jassem A.:

Put in a 20 amp breaker and see if that solves it. 15 amp breakers are usually for lights not receptacles

This is a dangerous suggestion and should not be left uncommented. It is correct that overloading the circuit would cause the breaker to trip. Replacing the 15A breaker with a 20A breaker would solve the problem,

However, the breaker is sized matching the rating of the wire. Basically, if during installation, they put thin (cheap) wire in there, it would be a 10A breaker. A little thicker wire.. can carry 15A.. gets a 15A breaker.

Thicker wire.. 20A breaker

What happens when you just replace the 15A with a 20A breaker? The wires get too hot and an electrical fire.

The insurance better not read this thread then.

The diagnosis from the original post is correct.

Maybe you can use this opportunity a nd add a new circuit, so that the 2 bedrooms have separate circuits. It will not add a lot of cost (a breaker costs $40.. or if they put in an ARCfault breaker.. $60)

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  • Ravi P.
    Investor · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 219 posts · 104 votes
    9y

    There could be many reasons that the breaker may trip. It could be as simple as a bad circuit breaker, a short in the line, or not being properly grounded.  

    An experienced  Handyman may be able to take care of this problem, but I recommend an electrician.

    If you are looking for second opinions try using thumbtack.com.  You list your problem and up to 5 contractors  will respond. they may not be able to provide an estimate with out a site visit. but I have had great success with them with small jobs like this.

    Ravi

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    @Ravi P. This site looks great. Thanks! I just made a post.

    0Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    Put in a 20 amp breaker and see if that solves it. 15 amp breakers are usually for lights not receptacles. There may also be a lose screw in one of the receptacles that are being used or where the wire attaches to the circuit breaker. If the breaker doesn't fix it then I would replace the receptacles that are being used. Shouldn't cost that much. Breakers are like $10 and receptacles are like $0.50 and anyone with a flat head screwdriver can do it.

    0Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Art M.,

    Be aware that some "modern" TVs pull more current than an old tube set, don't kid yourself.

    CPAP is a very low power air pump, not much more.

    Make sure they don't have a space heater in each room - folks may think that not worth mentioning.

    If you get a professional in there, get an estimate on putting each room on a separate breaker if the panel will accommodate that.

    Oddly enough, I have the same situation here in a house built in fall 2003 thru spring 2004 with 200 amp service.

    0Reply
  • Andy D.
    Investor · Zürich, Zürich · Member since 2016 · 292 posts · 115 votes
    9y

    What the electrician writes is typical. It's like a mechanic saying you need a new engine while, really, a mere oil change would fix it. Something like that...

    If I understand it correctly there is 1 person in your bottom unit. Assuming you have a good standing with that person you may want to ask him/her to unplug everything that is on this particular circuit breaker and see if it still trips. He could temporarily run an extension cord from the other room to still have electricity for his devices.

    If the breaker doesn't trip then  it's a load issue. Assuming the wiring and the code supports it get a stronger circuit breaker. Simple fix. It the damn thing still trips without any load then it's most likely either the circuit breaker itself, especially when it's an older one (easy fix, replace it; that's where I would start in any case) or a short somewhere, including a grounding issue. If you replaced the breaker and the problem persists then you have a much more serious issue as a short could lead to a fire (now who's the one with the scare tactic here now! LOL). That's the point where you then do want to involve an electrician. I would not rely on someone "who knows their way around electricity and wiring" while not being an electrician as this is a rental. You do not want to risk anything happening and later run into an issue with your insurance company because the issue was not properly handled by people licensed to do that kind of work.

    But start out easy, don't tear down the house and build a new one to fix a potentially simple electricity issue... 

    Good luck.

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    Is switching a 15V to a 20V something I can do myself?

    0Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jassem A.:

    Put in a 20 amp breaker and see if that solves it. 15 amp breakers are usually for lights not receptacles. There may also be a lose screw in one of the receptacles that are being used or where the wire attaches to the circuit breaker. If the breaker doesn't fix it then I would replace the receptacles that are being used. Shouldn't cost that much. Breakers are like $10 and receptacles are like $0.50 and anyone with a flat head screwdriver can do it.

    OH! DON'T USE THE "50-CENT" OUTLETS UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR HOUSE TO BURN DOWN! 

    They're cheap for a reason (more like $1.50, really). Pay the higher price for better safety and longer, more reliable service.

    ... ESPECIALLY in a rental!

    0Reply
  • Randall Brown
    Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 39 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jassem A.:

    Put in a 20 amp breaker and see if that solves it. 15 amp breakers are usually for lights not receptacles

    This is a dangerous suggestion and should not be left uncommented. It is correct that overloading the circuit would cause the breaker to trip. Replacing the 15A breaker with a 20A breaker would solve the problem,

    However, the breaker is sized matching the rating of the wire. Basically, if during installation, they put thin (cheap) wire in there, it would be a 10A breaker. A little thicker wire.. can carry 15A.. gets a 15A breaker.

    Thicker wire.. 20A breaker

    What happens when you just replace the 15A with a 20A breaker? The wires get too hot and an electrical fire.

    The insurance better not read this thread then.

    The diagnosis from the original post is correct.

    Maybe you can use this opportunity a nd add a new circuit, so that the 2 bedrooms have separate circuits. It will not add a lot of cost (a breaker costs $40.. or if they put in an ARCfault breaker.. $60)

    7Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    @Randall Brown I'm concerned with the labor cost, not the materials. How much do you think this would all cost, labor included?

    0Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    Chances are they put at least 14 gauge wire in there and although it is only rated for 15 amps, it is very unlikely that it will start a fire with a 20 amp load. Anything 220 volts I would go at least 12 gauge to be safe although 10 gauge or better is usually required by code.

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Art M.:

    Is switching a 15V to a 20V something I can do myself?

    15 to 20 AMPS?  (115V)  If both are single pole, yes it is possible but make sure you have 12 gauge wiring. Most likely you do.

    I have switched out breakers on my own before.  It's easy, but not for someone that's never done it. Get the same brand, youtube instrux and a handy family member or friend to help.

    I don't think you need a higher gauge wire in the wall to up from a 15A to a 20A.  Never just go up to a 30A, or to a 40 or 50 without a larger gauge wire (14 vs 12) and professional help. 

    If it were me, I would put in a new 15A breaker. $10-ish. Get a 20A single while you're there. Shouldn't take 'a couple hours' as your electrician quotes.  Sheesh.  

    Get a $4 outlet tester.  Check that all outlets aren't cross-wired and are grounded.  Try these simple things before getting an electrician.

    Then maybe try a good extension cord that pulls from somewhere else for the TV and space heater.  Gotta be one.  Kitchens usually have 30A service.  Dishwashers, a dedicated one.  I had to do that for a renter that needed 2 a/c units in the living room last year.  They were each pulling 12A.  Duh!

    Good luck and keep us posted! 

    0Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    @Art M.

    It will be about $20 if you buy yourself a flat head screwdriver, a 20 amp circuit breaker, and a contractor pack of receptacles and then watch some youtube videos of how to change out a circuit breaker and receptacles. It's usually quicker to push the wire into the back of the receptacle than to loop it around the screws and also safer I think. You may also want to get a utility knife and needle nose pliers for working with the wire. 

    0Reply
  • Randall Brown
    Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 39 votes
    9y

    The following is all based on the assumption that your tenants are NOT overloading the breaker. If they use more than 15A, then you have to educate them or upgrade the wiring.

    There is at least a 50% chance that the breaker has gone faulty. I have seen this happen several times. Some last 30 years, and others 2 years.

    --> replace breaker.. 1 guy for 10 minutes plus $40 for the breaker.. 

    Next possibility: one of the outlets has faulty or lose wiring. Modern ARCfault breakers will trip from this but they have been around for 10 years only (not sure?).. unlikely that your building has those. 

    Worst case: a rate chewed on the wiring somewhere in the wall and causes an occasional short, like when a heavy truck drives by. I currently have exactly this situation, but in a basement where the wire is exposed. If the damage is inside the wall.. good luck.. have to rewire the entire rooom.

    Costs maybe 2 guys 6 hours?

    By the way..

    The rating of the wire is printed on the wire. You can see it by opening an outlet -or easier- at the breaker itself. It is unlikely that you have 20A wire and they put in a 15A breaker.

    Reason.. thicker wire is harder to work with (does not bend easily..) and makes installation of those blue boxes for outlets more difficult. Once the installer has gone through the hassle of installing 20A wire, you bet they will put in a 20A breaker.

    Unless someone replaced it years later...

    Good luck.. you might get away with a $100 service call plus $40 for a new breaker!

    0Reply
  • Jeff B.
    Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Rule for electric circuits:  REPLACE LIKE FOR LIKE,  old 15A gets new 15A and NEVER 15->20.

    @Randall Brown has it right above.  If it's tripping, then there's a reason - - find it or risk having a fire with dumb tape and bailing wire fixes like changing the breaker rating.

    It is not uncommon to see a breaker tripping at a lower than rated current, especially when it's been abused over time or it is well aged, say 15-20yrs.

    btw: it's 15A not 15V and the 15A plug has two parallel slots while a 20A plug has a horizontal 'T' on the left and a vertical 'I' on the right.

    2Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    If he is hitting the reset button on the GFCI receptacle then it could be a problem with the receptacle not the circuit breaker. Might not be grounded and if so then he may have better luck with a 2 prong receptacle. GFCI should also have a sticker that says "no equipment ground" if it is not grounded.

    0Reply
  • Mark Holencik
    Investor · Coplay, PA · Member since 2015 · 404 posts · 315 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Art M.:

    Is switching a 15V to a 20V something I can do myself?

     Do not put a 20 amp breaker where there is a 15 amp. The size of the wire can not handle the extra amps. Eventually you will start a fire.

    0Reply
  • Chad Clanton
    Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes
    9y

    Rather  then repeating what was said above, I'm just going to add a huge +1 for @Randall Brown and @Jeff B. Never just up the amperage on a breaker, and I would never put a 20A breaker on 14awg wire.

    1Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    if the wire size going to the other 20 amp breakers are the same as the wire size going to your 15 amp breaker then you are probably safe to upgrade. Fires are usually started because rats chew up the wires or if aluminum wires were used. Crappy tenants are a more likely cause of fires because they let the grease build up on the stove or because they are criminals and do it on purpose because you have started the process to evict them for nonpayment of rent.

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    Electricians seem to vary wildly by availability. I went on Angie’s List and contacted a few and they don’t want to come out until after Thanksgiving and are telling me I need a new engine when I need an oil change. I went on Thumbtrack and have two guys looking to do the job.

    One says he needs to do a diagnosis and that it could be many issues, but it might be good to separate the two rooms onto separate breakers. I liked how he sounded. What he says seems to align with what you guys are saying and he just started his profile, so he sounds hungry for good reviews. He says it’ll probably be $100-$200.

    The other one sounded pretty unprofessional and suggests to replace the arc fault breaker, which is apparently a code requirement. I asked if it would still pass inspection and he says it might not. This guy charges $40/hr. I’m tempted by the price, but I should probably avoid, right?

    A third says, "Hi Art the Afci breaker is bad need to be replaced the price is 225 including labor and the Afci breaker thanks".

    I'm leaning toward the first guy. Thoughts?

    0Reply
  • Jassem A.
    Investor · PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 602 votes
    9y

    I would probably choose between the first two. 200 to replace a breaker is a lot considering it takes all of 10 minutes to do. The 40/hr guy is probably going to cost the least amount assuming he knows what he is doing and is honest.

    0Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Art M.,

    @Jassem A. makes a good point about aluminum wire. Make sure the switches, outlets, etc. match the wire type! Mismatches can cause issues. If the wire is aluminum and in conduit, see about replacing the wires with copper. BX and ROMEX are more of a challenge.

    From what you posted, I'd keep looking for an electrical pro. I don't like the sound of either one, but that's just me - your mileage may vary.

    0Reply
  • Ravi P.
    Investor · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 219 posts · 104 votes
    9y

    @Art Maydan

    Where is the rental located?  I may have someone I can refer.

    Ravi

    0Reply
  • Ryan Cameron
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 351 posts · 80 votes
    9y

    My first suggestion is to call another electrician for a second opinion. If both electricians story sounds similar, try replacing the breaker first and hope it solves your issue.

    Best of luck to you @Art M.

    0Reply
  • Kevin Manz
    HVAC Tech · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2015 · 423 posts · 223 votes
    9y

    replace 15 amp breaker w a 20 amp breaker. 99% of the time problem solved. If that don't fix the problem then you can worry about what to do next. You can do it your self just turn the main breaker off and dive in

    0Reply
  • Chad Clanton
    Contractor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 647 posts · 205 votes
    9y

    I do home inspections for a living and, while I'm not an electrician, I see plenty of "home jobs" and "unofficial electrician" work. If you don't KNOW what you're doing, I'd recommend having a professional do it. "Just replacing the 15A with a 20A" is a truly fantastic way to potentially start a fire. Don't forget, even if the 15A and 20A breakers are using the same size wire in the box, there's no guarantee there's not a different size in the circuit. Additional electrical work done in the attic? Any additions? Torn out walls? Partial circuits could be home jobs. If you run a 20A breaker on 14AWG wire and start pulling a little heavy, you're looking at a fantastic opportunity for a fire. The electrician may very well not be able to identify such a situation either, but at least the liability is transferred to him. Otherwise, it's all on you. Just my .02.

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