The duplex I’m house hacking has an uninsulated attic. It would cost me about $800 to do it myself. And the attic studs are non-standard distances apart, so I’m not even sure I could do it properly myself. I’m going to live here for another 1-2 years tops and will rent the whole thing out when we move on. I’m wondering if it’s worth my time and money to do if the tenant pays utilities. About how much money over the course of 1-2 winters will attic insulation save? I just got my first gas bill and it was for $120.
The only long-term argument I see is less ware and tear on the furnace. I already sealed up all of the cracks with that spray foam stuff. Are there more cheap options I’m missing?
What would you do?
Some other benefits for installing attic insulation:
what kind of insulation will you be adding yourself? if you're using blown in cellulose, it's pretty easy. If you're considering batt insulation, might want to consider cellulose due to your non-standard attic studs.
Here's a calculator in regards to the payback period
http://www.cellulose.org/HomeOwners/CalculateSavin...
Since you're going to stay a couple of years, and your budget allows it, I say go ahead and do it. It's good for you in the short term and helps benefit your tenants / environment in the long term.
However, don't expect a drastic drop in your heating bills as the attic is not the only area where heat escapes your house.
INSULATE! I am a bug fan of insulation. I would not worry about the odd stud sizes. Rent the blow in machine from a big box store (usually free with purchase of insulation) It is easy to use and will be worth it. What size atic? I would think it would be cheaper than 800? We blew in a up down duplex that had an attic of 1000 sq feet for $375. I guess depending on your size it could be $800.
I cannot speak to the specific savings that you will have in your house, but it WILL be worth it in the long run. Insulation is incredibly important and has the highest pay back of all forms of energy efficiency. Do it. you will not regret it, especially if you are doing it yourself, you can save soooo much.
Just my thoughts...
I'm not sure how big it is. Maybe 1000 sqft? The bats were selling for 8 pieces for $30 at Home Depot.
I'll look more into the blow-in insulation. I love having all that storage room. Maybe I'll do the blow-in and lay planks on a section to store stuff.
In Chicago, why would you even consider NOT insulating the attic? The return on investment is there and it's important for customer satisfaction. After you've properly insulated the building (attic insulation, plus plumbing pipes, walls, windows, etc.) then you can market the property as being insulated in accordance with current industry standards. This extra value may even garner you extra in rent.
Be careful about laying planks in the attic to store stuff. Not a good idea unless you know for certain the joists are will be able to support the extra weight. The weight of the floor boards in itself is quite substantial, then add to it the weight of your stored items; it could tip the scale. Also, how easy would it be to access the attic. Do you want tenants storing stuff up there too?
Some other benefits for installing attic insulation:
Aren't attics meant to be finished? I don't think the support beams are any different than the ones used between the first and second floor. If I can walk around and store my stuff up there, how would some planks make the floor collapse?
The entrance to the attic is a pull down hatch with a fold-up ladder. I would look into what to do with that when it's time to rent it out because it's potentially a liability issue. Might have to get rid of the rope so tenants can't open it.
@Alex Sloan Thanks for all that! That list makes Any idea how much it would cost compared to doing it myself? That list made it obvious to me how much better a job a pro could do... I didn't think there was that much to it.
Aren't attics meant to be finished? I don't think the support beams are any different than the ones used between the first and second floor. If I can walk around and store my stuff up there, how would some planks make the floor collapse?
The entrance to the attic is a pull down hatch with a fold-up ladder. I would look into what to do with that when it's time to rent it out because it's potentially a liability issue. Might have to get rid of the rope so tenants can't open it.
@Alex Sloan Thanks for all that! That list makes Any idea how much it would cost compared to doing it myself? That list made it obvious to me how much better a job a pro could do... I didn't think there was that much to it.
Not all attics are. It depends of the type of construction and the attic design. We converted the attic space above a garage into storage, added a drop-down ladder, put plywood over the insulation and joists. Later we found out that the trusses may not have been designed to handle the extra weight, so we're careful about how much stuff we put up there. Our attic has room for storage but not room for standing up, so obviously was not meant to be finished. Just something to consider.
@Art M., the difference will be labor costs. Depending on how straight-forward the job is, they could have it done in about 5-7 hrs. At $70/hr, you're probably looking at a difference of about $500 extra beyond doing it yourself; I recommend getting a few quotes. Also, don't assume that the "pros" will be following some of the guidance above. Many insulation specialists "blow and go" without paying extra attention to the science behind it. Also, you may be able to get rebates for this work. Not sure if this is your utility, but they have links to some approved weatherization contractors on the bottom: https://www.comed.com/WaysToSave/ForYourHome/Pages/WeatherizationRebates.aspx
@Alex Sloan Thanks for that rebates list. Looks like I can get $300 since I'm with Peoples Gas. Is this rebate through ComEd or Peoples Gas then?
Since tenants will pay utilities it does not matter if you insulate or not since there is no gain or savings for you. Savings in heating costs will take a minimum 10 years to recoup and tenants will not notice the difference.
Probably not worth the time money or effort.
@Thomas S. Thanks for offering an opposing viewpoint. Where does the 10 years number come from? Is that the norm? It's a good bit below freezing here currently and I do notice the furnace kicking on constantly. Just wondering how much of that exactly can be mitigated by insulation. My last bill was for $120. Should be more this month. Any idea what percentage insulation the attic would reduce that by.
10 years is a ball park based on industry numbers depending on the zone you are in. It may at best save 5%-10% but each property is unique. The reality is you are spending money you will never get back which in the case of rental properties is not prudent.
You spend either to maintain a property in need of repair or to increase income. Attic insulation does not serve either purpose and therefor is only to achieve a warm and fuzzy owner feel.
If it has never been insulated for previous owners/tenants why bother now. Tenants will never know the differance.
@Art M., it looks like the contractor you work with may be the one who submits the application on your behalf, so they should know where to direct it. Also, they may know of other rebates you can take advantage of. If applicable, ask them about on bill financing as well. Not sure about the legality of this, but perhaps one option for your case is to keep paying the utility bill over time and build in the bill cost into rent. Regarding percentage savings, 15%-25% is typically achievable. Again, it's dependent on a bunch of factors, like the efficiency of your furnace, leakage/insulation in the rest of the house, how often your duplex neighbor heats their side (if it has separate systems), etc. If you move forward, ask the contractors for savings estimates based on their past clients.
@Thomas S., Payback for any energy retrofit is dependent on a number of factors. I've seen payback for simple air sealing/attic insulation retrofits in less than a year. Since Art is starting with no existing insulation, there is huge room for improvement and much faster payback than a previously insulated attic. You are correct that utility bills typically get passed onto the tenants, but in my opinion, tenants who are uncomfortable in their home are not bound to stick around, especially if they have lived in a better conditioned home in the past. Matter of opinion, of course!
I have a 6 unit property where I added insulation in the attic and a couple exterior walls. I also replaced the windows with energy efficient windows. My utility bill decreased 31% about $1,300 a year. Total costs were about $6,500. Windows were not specifically for energy efficiency but also easy of use. Even at that it is a 5 year payback. Most of the time if you blow in insulation in the attic yourself you will save that in the first year....
@Art Maydan I have the same issue with one of my rental properties in Logan Square Chicago
I will need to find someone to put insulation in the attic.
If you find someone that does a good job and price please let me know
@Syed Lateef If I do it, I'm going to go with one of the contractors on the ComEd website that @Alex Sloan linked. That's $300 off and you know they'll do it right. I've set up a few appointments for estimates. I'll probably do it if it's less than like $700 before rebate.
Insulate the attic! Make sure you don't block the soffit vents as an attic needs to breath! Insulation save you utility cost all year round! It does help keep the heat out in the summer. You must have an old home. Check your walls for insulation as well. My house built in 1935 did not have insulation until I added open cell spray foam to them for around $2 per sf. This also helps on reducing sound as well. You will need R-49 for insulation value in the attic to bring it up to current code. This helps extend the life of the furnace and ac units. If you go with batt insul make sure you rotate 90 degrees with each layer you add. My calculations from the above website shows you will save about $125 a year in heating mode. This doesn't count for cooling conditions.
@Art M. Most likely roof rafters are not suitable for turning this into a finished space. 2x4 or 2x6 wont work. They will support a temporary load but not a dead load or live loads required for a finish space. Without seeing them its hard to tell. I doubt they put up an engineered truss or I-beam system for the attic area.
If you have the ladder style entrance and its an old home you may have a "walkable attic" vs a crawl space attic. Information given by other is a for a crawl space attic which is extremely popular. Would need to see a picture of the attic to determine. If its "walkable" then you need cathedral ceiling insulation system which is different. You will need to leave an air space under the roof sheathing for ventilation. I would hire this done for this system.
Aren't attics meant to be finished? I don't think the support beams are any different than the ones used between the first and second floor. If I can walk around and store my stuff up there, how would some planks make the floor collapse?
The entrance to the attic is a pull down hatch with a fold-up ladder. I would look into what to do with that when it's time to rent it out because it's potentially a liability issue. Might have to get rid of the rope so tenants can't open it.
@Alex Sloan Thanks for all that! That list makes Any idea how much it would cost compared to doing it myself? That list made it obvious to me how much better a job a pro could do... I didn't think there was that much to it.
@Art Maydan,
quick question: i thought your house is "brand new" (newly renovated); how the contractor/rehaber from which you bought passed city inspection/your pre-purchase inspection with no attic insulation?
either way, @Kyle Hip, has your best local numbers.... (do it yourself though!)
and @Greg S numbers where 10 years payback because he considers you have to pay a contractor to do this (based on your other threads/ construction knowledge)
NOw, seriously: watch your step and don't fall/step on the ceiling/drywall! Miss @Marcia Maynard is right, not all attics where built to be finished...
I would look at the local Home Depot/Lowes/Menards/ Ace for deals on insulation!!! (or clearance stock)... christmas/end of year is almost here (hint hint)
Make sure you check your furnace filters also! and restriction type too! (a 1.5 years old plugged filter could cost you a LOT! ask me how i know......)
all the best and continuous success! (i really like it in your threads how you seem to learn more and more )
Insulate the attic! Make sure you don't block the soffit vents as an attic needs to breath!
@Art Maydan, Please read this again!!!
you don't do this, mold(not mildew)/humidity/rot will show their ugly faces!!!
P.S. Thank you @Jim Adrian
@Jim Adrian @Dumitru Anton The house is a gut rehab. It's a sfr converted to a duplex. I think they just skimped. Not sure how it passed inspection. I didn't even know insulation was a code requirement.
Dumitru, what is restriction type? I did change the furnace filter and put it in my calendar to do it again in 90 days. Are there any other filters I should be changing?
insulation falls under the iecc for commercial and residential. The ibc and irc point you to the iecc. You may want to check and see if permits where pulled for the conversion.
"After you've properly insulated the building (attic insulation, plus plumbing pipes, walls, windows, etc.) then you can market the property as being insulated in accordance with current industry standards. This extra value may even garner you extra in rent."
Careful there. There is no "industry standard", there are codes. As @Jim Adrian noted, it's the IECC -- by reference -- in Chicago's building code.
And charging extra rent for meeting code? No.
Have an energy audit. Mine was free. Our community has a promotion, and many cities offer incentives to get energy audits. Then you can see exactly how leaky the house is, and find out if the money is best spent on attic insulation. We have insulated attic and basement (made a huge difference) and replaced a few of the worst leaky windows. Some you can do yourself with a can of spray foam (like Great Stuff) or a tube of caulk, but it's often worth it to have a professional take care of it.
At all of our properties, we took advantage of rebates offered by the utility companies, often reaching a higher tier of rebates (for more than a 25% improvement in the tightness of the house) and the improvements have made the house noticeably more comfortable.
If a house is drafty, uncomfortable, and has high utility bills, a tenant isn't going to want to stay on. Tenant retention has a good deal of value in this business. Whether you can also get higher rents depends on your market, and where your renal rate is compared to market rent. We certainly were able to increase our rents after these upgrades, but we still are probably charging less than we could be (for some of our units). That's our choice, to keep our really excellent tenants.