How to prove : People not on Lease living with tenant
Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2009 · 308 posts · 61 votes
A section 8 tenant has two family members living in the house for the past 1.5 months that are not on the lease. During the day whenever I go by their car is there and I can hear the extra child in the house. How can I prove they been staying/living there?
In my lease it states individuals not on the lease cant stay for more than 14 days in 6 months or they will have to pay additional rent.
The utility bill has been triple the normal charge per month. I have billed the tenant for the overages. they are using more W/S/G than three of my units combined.
The lease is up end of next month. When I bill her for the two other occupants how can I prove they been living there besides saying when I drive by they and their car are there?
Also, I noticed today they are smoking in the unit. I saw it coming out the window. I knocked on the door and it was the extra occupant smoking. The tenant apologized and I threatened to end the lease next time i see or smell smoke.
How can I bill for smoking damage when they move out? Is it just by the cleaning bill from washing the walls with tsp when they move out?
Thanks!
Addidional people are not allowed with a S-8 lease. You could simply turn your findings over to the HA. The high utilities and your observations should be enough to convince them to investigate. An HA inspection will look for mail and clothing in the unit not belonging to the S8 tenant. Hard to explain mens clothing in the unit if no men are on the lease. It they claim they live somewhere else, they would have to show proof, a recent rent receipt, utility bill, etc., to show other occupancy. The down side to that is if they determine the tenant has violated the contract, they could stop paying you.
If you try to bill for extra tenants, I think you'll find that a violation with the HA contract, and they could stop making payments. Also, by billing for it, a court could later determine you actually accepted the situation.
I've been in that netherland where the HA stops making payments and I'm left to evict.
I'd simply explain to the tenant that if the freeloaders aren't out ASAP, they'll loose S8 and face eviction. Don't listen to any stories or excuses. If they are still there in a week or so, serve a 5-day with a cc: to the HA and be prepared to evict.
In many areas this is a tough one to prove. One way would be to drive by every day and take a pic of the license plate... another way is to see if the extra tenant is getting mail (this is hard because you have do it without tampering with it). I would also conduct a formal inspect... actually several. Take pics of everything... including the new tenant.
As for the billing the tenant for the extra charge... a lot will depend on what your lease says.
Best of luck!
Addidional people are not allowed with a S-8 lease. You could simply turn your findings over to the HA. The high utilities and your observations should be enough to convince them to investigate. An HA inspection will look for mail and clothing in the unit not belonging to the S8 tenant. Hard to explain mens clothing in the unit if no men are on the lease. It they claim they live somewhere else, they would have to show proof, a recent rent receipt, utility bill, etc., to show other occupancy. The down side to that is if they determine the tenant has violated the contract, they could stop paying you.
If you try to bill for extra tenants, I think you'll find that a violation with the HA contract, and they could stop making payments. Also, by billing for it, a court could later determine you actually accepted the situation.
I've been in that netherland where the HA stops making payments and I'm left to evict.
I'd simply explain to the tenant that if the freeloaders aren't out ASAP, they'll loose S8 and face eviction. Don't listen to any stories or excuses. If they are still there in a week or so, serve a 5-day with a cc: to the HA and be prepared to evict.
WOW This tenant just left a 3min voice mail yelling at me why I am by their place and I am threating them by being around their home. I am there 2x a week to show the other unit and her unit is on the main street with garbage always scattered everywhere.
I go and sweep and pick up the trash.
I have not mentioned I know other people are living there with her yet.
I recently billed her for the $200 overages and she is complaining why two months later and if I can take it out her deposit. I billed her two months later because that is when I get the bill from the city.
When I delivered the bill i knocked on the door and her 4yr old opened the door. I did not go in. She is saying I barged in.
She said she is reporting me to her case worker and to the section 8 office since I am threating her.
So interesting!
Why does everything happen at once? lol
As you long as you didn't enter without her permission it doesn't sound like she has a leg to stand on.
I've been known to report suspicious vehicles at my properties.
BTW - my lease gives "guests" 3 days before they are considered tenants with extra fees.
Edit - just saw this is section 8. Talk to her caseworker. Section 8 is a privilege that a tenant can lose, not a right, and caseworkers know that. Get in good with the caseworker. Usually when tenants do this, they violate city occupancy guidelines doing it. Make it clear you want to follow occupancy guidelines, especially with kids in the house.
Why are you trying to prove ANYTHING? It's totally unnecessary and a waste of time. The lease is up next month!!! If you don't want the tenants to stay, give them a 30 day notice and get rid of them. EASY!
From now on, NEVER sign a year lease with a Section 8 tenant or any other tenant. A longer lease ONLY BENEFITS THE TENANT!
Her lease is up. Give her written notice that you are not renewing the lease. Send a copy of the notice to her case worker.
There is no reason to put up with a tenant like that one.
In future, after their garbage can is put out on the curb, you can look for mail with the "guest's" name and your address on it.
Personally, I wouldn't go into their yard to pick up trash without giving them notice. In fact, I would have given them a written notice to clean up their own trash, or I would come by every week at *time* and pick it up and charge them $35 an hour with a 2 hour minimum every time I had to pick up their garbage.
Hmm. The 4 yr old answered the door and mommy says you barged in?
So what adult did you speak to when you visited? If there was no adult you should have called the police / DCYF immediately.
I'm with MikeOH. When it comes to people with no integrity, they always have an excuse and an accusation without ever admitting faults of their own. Their goal in life is to make everyone else feel the need to explain things that need no explaination so as to hide their dispicable behavior.
Document these happenings & call the caseworker to cover your ***. Then suck it up until she's outta there.
Wait! Your tenant called you yelling at you for being on your property and they still live there? Something's wrong with this picture. If one of my tenants called me, yelling about anything, they would not be one of my tenants. You apparently did not put the fear of god into them when they signed the lease agreement, otherwise, your tenants would be treating you with the same respect you treat them. Remember what the term "Landlord" means and what it used to mean. Sounds like you have a lot of work to do on your customer relationship skills.
There are lots of good points already listed here, so my two cents will be brief. I generally do not fuss when I have guaranteed rent coming in (especially from the government). However, once they cross the line like calling and yelling at you, I would do the following (some points already made above):
- Serve 48 hour notice of inspection and entry
- In the notice, I generally include some kind of notification that you are allowed to enter with notice by law and that if any attempt is made to prevent entry, a trip charge will assessed to the tenant ledger and the following trip will be made with a law officer and section 8 representative (may not be possible, but as mentioned above, section 8 tenants can lose their privileges).
- Perform the inspection, and make your notes.
- Send a demand letter to remedy (in AZ they have 10 days) - in your case, remove extra occupants, terminate smoking in the house and clean walls, you will re-inspect on such and such a date
- I would bill them for the cleaning if they do not do it, to their ledger and not wait on the deposit. In most cases, you will need that deposit for plenty of other things after they move out. The next time the rent is due, you will not accept it without the full amount.
------ On the other hand, we, as investors, often stress out about this stuff more than we should. There are always smokers, extra tenants, and so forth, so it may not be worth your stress to force the issue, especially if she is out next month. I do agree with Tom C though, and therefore in either case, you should send a firm letter (an inspection letter strongly worded) to remind them who is boss.
Oh, the woes of this entitlement society we have become. :)