My Energy Efficiency Project Thread, aka Eco-Capitalism

My Energy Efficiency Project Thread, aka Eco-Capitalism

Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes

Hey there BP!

I'm posting this thread, which, full disclosure, will be long, and might not be for everyone, in order to document a project I am doing here in sunny Arizona. It is on a commercial building, 8 units, and master-metered (aka the bills are on me). Yes, I know there is a forum for commercial, but I would do this on a MFH as well as a SFH if the numbers worked.

Please feel free to comment, ask questions, and wonder out loud if I've finally lost my mind.....maybe the tenants finally got to me!

Anyway, some background - I've got 11 doors of rental property here in AZ.  This is my first commercial building, and I (humble brag here, whatever) knocked this one out of the park on the purchase, but that is another post.  

Long story short, this was a lender owned property, and kind of a dump.  I've owned it now for about 6 months, and was wrestling with some factors that are innate to the building, and are eating away at my bottom line.  4 of my tenants are hairdressers, which is a business that pays the rent, but is also VERY consumptive of resources.  The building is also master-metered, which is really common in older facilities, and usually means you can either bill back the tenants for a portion of the utilities (good effing luck getting them to do that BTW) or figure out a way around it.  

The other side of this coin is that my home markets (85251 and 85257) are white hot right now, and its damn near impossible to buy anything that makes sense as a buy/hold.  I either heard it here, or from some grayhair in the business that sometimes, the best property investment is your own property.  For you analyst types, what that means is that under certain market conditions, the best rates of return are upgrades to your own property, rather than more property.

So, with that in mind, I did a little math, and decided, both for personal/moral reasons, as well as making more money (duh), that I was going to turn an expense into a profit center.  The power/water bills come to a yearly average of about $620/month.  Dunno about your home market, but around here, making that kind of cash each month is going to take either getting really lucky, or a lot of capital if you are going to get it out of a rental.  By a lot of capital, I mean a $300k+ house in my zip code (assuming leverage).  I also have just enough of a hippy streak to know that we are killing our planet, and I don't want to contribute to that any more than I have to.  Plus, it does NOT involve any additional tenants.  Effing sweet!

*Note to readers - I have been in construction/etc since I was old enough to pick up a hammer.  Grandfather taught me a lot, and I'm damn lucky to have had him in my life.  If you have to pay people to do things, this won't work as well.  

Enter....the project!  In a nutshell, here is what it entails, and the order in which it will happen:

1) Solar coating (white goopy reflective stuff) on the roof.  This magical white goo will take the temperature of a roof in AZ from 200+ degrees (summer) down to about ambient air temp or below.  Any roof is just a giant heat sink, and the last thing you need in AZ is more heat in July.  Come on down if you don't believe me.  

2) Replacement of the old crappy single-pane windows, which are about as good an idea as a screen door on a submarine.  I'm going with glass block, because of the combo of cheap/secure/thermally efficient.  Dunno if you've ever tried to break a glass block, but its not easy.  

3) Removal of the old rooftop AC units, and installation of new, high-seer mini-split AC systems for each unit.  I could write a book about how sweet these things are, but I'll just leave it at this: they are pretty sweet, and use very little electricity.  More importantly, they have a feature called "soft start", which drastically effects your demand charges on your bill.  Depending on how your electric is billed, (net metering or demand charges) this can make a 50% reduction by itself.  

4) Rooftop solar hot water heater - without any yawn-worthy physics involved, let me just put it this way - water takes a LOT of electricity to heat.  Also, hairdressers use a LOT of hot water.  Lot of Electricity x Lot of Hairdressers = Lot of Power Bill.  SWH (solar water heaters) come in a bunch of different forms, do your own homework, I rooted around on craigslist here, and found a lightly used commercial rig for $150 loaded in the back of my pickup. Needed some cleaning, and polishing on the glazing (clear part where sun comes in) but will make a $hit-ton of hot water.  What a country.  

4a) Once these are done, we wait a couple of billing cycles on the electric bill, and see what our usage comes out to be....and then...

5) Rooftop Solar PV Array - here is why you do this last.  I have a friend who is head of sustainability for our local utility.  He explained it to me over some pints of Adult Beverages at our local one night.  See, solar PV (panels, inverters, etc) are big-ticket items, ($20K or more), heavily sold and pushed, and are, at their core, a good investment.  However, it is MUCH cheaper to exhaust your energy efficiency upgrades and THEN size the system to what your building/house/family needs once those are done.  In some parts of the country, yes, the meter will spin backwards, but in most parts, the utilities have caught up with this, and aren't playing ball anymore.  So do your own homework, rather than read some article on the internet.  

So, on the very slim chance that you are still actually reading this, what will this translate to in terms of money?  

Hm.  Good question - I asked the power-nerds, and here is what they came up with:  

My budget for all this mess is $32k.  yeah, I know, thats a lot of cash, but I was able to pull it out of the building with a refinance at 5% (its commercial before you poop your pants on the rate).  It's double-sweet because my tenants pay for it with their rent.  

I can get it done for that because I can wire in all the AC's, sweat copper to hook up the water heater, and know enough about engineering to put together a solar kit.  If you don't know all that stuff, you can learn it, or you can spend more money.  Because this is America, and we are free people, you get to make that choice for yourself.  I know, pretty cool right?  

We (and by "we" I mean my engineer nerd friends) have calculated out an approximate 78% drop in power consumption on a yearly basis from what we have, which includes the solar generation.  Based on my yearly average bills, that is a net monthly gain of $483.60 from an investment of $32,000.00 and some sweat.  The solar system has a 25 year output guarantee, and energy costs are only going up.  Solar hot water heaters last basically 15 years.  

Note here that I am approaching this from the perspective that this building is for lasting cash-flow.  I don't plan on selling it ever.  Ever Ever. 

I'll post updates here as they come along, right now the muppets who are rolling out the white goo are late, and I have to go roust them out of the woodpile.  

Happy investing.  

 - Darwin

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Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2015 · 257 posts · 230 votes
8y

@Thomas S. 5.5 years is in no way a long period for a project like this. I know you seem to think everything you put into a property should raise the rent so the ROI is positive after two years, but let's face it; that's a joke. Especially when people are more and more migrating to being energy conscious. Honestly I haven't figured you out. Most of the time I think you give great information, and other times I find myself almost asking to see what kind of rentals you provide because I couldn't see myself ever doing the same thing.

There is a value that goes beyond money that some people (mostly older) won't see. I do, and I think it was a great move. Not to mention it will be appreciated by your tenants come time to lease again at hopefully a higher rate.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Darwin Crawford:

    @Johann Jells - in AZ you can do electric/plumbing as an owner, just has to be inspected by city/power company. 

     I'm jealous, I'd love to be able to do that! The contractors here get to run the show.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Johann Jells - AZ is a lovely state to be a real estate investor.  They are pretty kind to us with the legal stuff, the flip side of that being the fact that it is very much a boom and bust state.  Lots of people here have won and lost big.  

    Scottsdale in particular is nice to you when you're doing the "green" thing, lots of local political push/pull over solar and its cost/benefit, but if you can make it work, its a nice thing to have. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    Hi Gang,

    Just wanted to update this thread, its been while.  As with every construction project since the Great Pyramids, this one refuses to run on time.  

    Had to $hit-Can the contractor I hired to do the dirty work (roof coating, painting, etc) and get out the tools to cover the shortage.  Nothing like leaving a job at an investment startup firm to frame out roofs and paint buildings....

    Quick side note - here in the southwest, construction labor has gotten really scarce, and prices are through the roof, just in case you're wondering.  

    Anyway, I ended up having to re-frame the soffits of the building, due to the contractor tearing them off without permission... (another story, that I could write a book about, is The Field Guide to Slobbering Moron Contractors Who Don't Listen to Anyone), and had to divert some cash to that.  

    The Mini-Splits arrived safe and sound, and I can tell you that having a pack of your weirdo, type-A crossfit buddies makes short work of a couple thousand pounds.  Weapons-Grade humans, all of them.  

    Compressors are on the roof, and head units are being installed as I can get to them.  Core-drilling 2.5" holes in solid block is slow work.  I've made the call that I will toss a buddy (who is an HVAC tech) some cash to come solder in all reefer lines and vacuum them.  He's faster than I am.   (BTW - "reefer" is refrigeration, not the state crop of Colorado, just for the record).  I have also decided to make small shade structures for each compressor unit to shield them from the sun.  

    On the solar hot water setup, I have elected to do the following:  the rooftop unit, (4'x10' panel) will be fed from the water main, and will then go to supply electric heaters on the ground in the building.  I am doing this for 2 reasons - 1 is that it will provide some "grid-tie backup" to the system, avoiding the situation I have now dubbed "The Hysterically Butt-Hurt Hairdresser Who Unfortunately Has My Phone Number", and it will drastically take down the demand load on the electric heaters, which can be in turn powered in part by the solar PV array.  

    For example - lets say right now, in the mornings, the water comes into the heater @ 60F, and needs to leave @ 120F.  That is a 60F delta in temps.  With a little luck, the solar part of this should be getting to 110F easy, leaving me only the 10F delta to put in as electric heat.  

    Anyway, I'll put more up as I can, leaving in a day and a half to hike to Machu Picchu, and take some time away from work.  

    Happy Investing!

     - Darwin

  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Darwin Crawford in the future, if you need holes in block again, you want a rotary hammer drill if you did not use that the first time. You can rent them and they are well worth it. Still they take a bit of time but at least 10x faster than anything else I have seen.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Bill S. - oh yes, quite familiar with the rotaries.  On this install though, I need nice clean holes, and my big Hitachi just blows through block like butter....so I had to core drill.  Slower, but leaves an immaculate hole with no rough spots that can snag/puncture my precious AC lines.  

    On anything else though, heck yeah, a spline hammer and a carbide bit and let 'er rip!  

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    Morning BP!

    Been a bit, I had to get covered in paint and goo for awhile at the building.  The upside is that its now done, and has a fresh new look.  The downside is that I had to paint the **** place.  Oh well.  

    6 of 8 head units are in, and as soon as my last few parts are here for AC's, they will be going online.  Couple things I've learned about mini-split wiring, if you care:  1 - breakers for these on 220v/1PH are kind of hard to find.  They are 220v/15A double-pole breakers, which is just a weird size here in the states.  2 - the local codes sometimes want you to have an AC disconnect box at each unit, but sometimes this is based on current draw.  Not a ton of inspectors know these types of units yet, so when in doubt, spend the $15 on the disconnect just to shut them up.  Not worth an argument over $15...

    The other part of this project, which is an ancillary bonus, although logical I guess, is that the psychological value of my tenants seeing improvement on a building which was neglected has been HUGE.  Attitudes have shifted, and all but one of my drama-laden tenants have calmed down, and even explained to me that they now understand why rents have risen, and are happy to have a nicer place for their clients to come see them.  Nice bonus, which I referenced here at one point: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/52/topics/481...

    I'll be posting my vacant suites up for lease in the next week, which should be interesting, to see response from the tenant pool at the moment.  From what I understand, demand is through the roof, but as we all know, everyone a badass until they have to write a check....

    Happy Investing!

     - Darwin

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    Gang,

    Wanted to put an update on here, its been a minute or two.....

    The mini-split units are in, and running like a top.  Electric bills are half of what they were, but the real test will come this summer.  

    The solar water heater is on the roof, and we are plumbing this week.  Rooting around again on Craigslist here in phoenix led me to a pair of beautiful brand new tankless water heaters for $300 cash.  So they'll be fed from the solar water heater, which should ease up their workload a lot, and allow less electrical consumption.  Only kicker is that they require a 120A breaker.  Yikes!  Putting in a cheap filter on the supply lines to cut down on scale and mineral deposits on them.  

    So far, looks like its all rolling along according to plan more or less.  Looking forward to closing the books on this reno, its been a lot of work and a pain in the arse.   But the next 5 years of low bills and no maintenance will be worth it.  

    Happy Investing!

     - Darwin

  • James MaraditsPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 239 posts · 224 votes
    8y

    Good work so far!  Share some pics sometime.

    I put an electric tankless heater in my personal residence and love it!  It's the "eco smart" brand.  I got it off amazon for around $300 I believe.  Takes up no space,  was significantly cheaper than a standard water heater, and saves on the electric bill quite a bit from what I can tell.  Mine uses 80 amps, but I have two 40 amp double pole breakers.  I imagine you can do the same otherwise you'll have to run huge 3 gauge or so wires to it (don't quote me not an electrician).

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @James Maradits - yes, I was really impressed with this tankless.  Wired it in yesterday, which was a pain in the butt, 120A breaker and 2ga wire is just tough to work with.  

    I'll be working on tying in plumbing for the solar heater today.  

    Side benefit to all this:  All 3 of these offices have rented within a month for asking price!  Tenant base seems to really appreciate nice new stuff, and everyone seems to like the "eco" approach.  

    Although I did leave out the fact they are paying for it.....

    Happy Investing!

     - Darwin

  • Titusville, FL · Member since 2016 · 55 posts · 40 votes
    8y
    Mechanical Engineer here. To answer a question with a series of questions in relative order of priority. 1) If you can sweat copper, you can install PEX. Why haven't you submetered your units for water? Especially given your tenants' high water usage? It's a DIY job. 2) If you can wire PV, you can install electric submeters with current clamps and have your tenants pay their own electricity. 3) You didnt mention natural gas, but these can be submetered too. This is a professional/Expert DIYer level job. Commercial tenants should be paying their own utilities (and contribution to your capex), otherwise you are silently subsidizing their business. That said, tenants who pay their own utilities will be incentivised to find energy efficient locations. To that end: 1) Apply cool roof coating (DIY). 2) Consider radiant barrier in the attic space (I've used prodex in the past). You'll also find this stuff in self storage units, wineries, etc. 2.1) Install upgraded insulation and seal drafts. Ensure you are not conditioning outdoor air. Be careful you don't create an issue with makeup air. 2.2) You mentioned replacing single pane windows with glass block. Yes there is thermal mass but also the fenestration. They may not provide much R value relative to the labor to install. Consider upgraded windows from big box stores. These can be ordered and DIY installed if you're adventurous. Invest in a flir to make sure you're solving an energy loss/gain problem. 3) Passive Solar water heating will benefit your tenants and can be marketed as such. But i would submeter and make them heat their own water first. Consider tankless heaters for each unit so that they can use the solar array as a preheater but also heat as needed. That way the sun provides hot water and they pay for usage beyond that capacity. 4) PV electricity is interesting. In that it will make your submetering a step more complex (but still not difficult). It should be transparent to the tenants and you can make a little revenue back. Be careful as my understanding is you are not allowed to "sell" power to your tenants because you are not a utility company. I interpret that to mean that you can only do pass through billing and generate no profit from your tenants. You cant tack on a profit factor. I would max out your energy efficiency dollars on efficient consumption first before investing in PV.
  • Titusville, FL · Member since 2016 · 55 posts · 40 votes
    8y
    Also, consider hybrid water heaters if you have a hot room you can put them in.
  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Malcolm Boston - good stuff there, and definitely some points I haven't thought of. Part of the motivation on this one is that in order to stabilize the property and achieve DSCR, I had to pre-lease some space on 60 month gross leases to satisfy the bankers. So I'm stuck with what I have until they run out, but such was the cost of acquiring the place.

    1) Water usage isn't very high, probably $50-70/month for the whole building, so sub-metering doesn't seem worth it to me.  

    2) The way the building is wired (a mess and a half) would make sub-metering a nightmare.  Before I got the place, it was remodeled at least half a dozen times, and the wiring is a squirrels nest, circuits swapped from 1 unit to another, the whole 9 yards....  If I had a magic wand, I'd re-wire the whole place, but its cost prohibitive to do so at this time, and ultimately not worth it until I either refi in 5 years or put a 2nd story on it.  

    3) there is natural gas supply on the street, but the building hasn't had service in 20 years, (I called the gas company) and re-establishing service is going to be costly and time consuming.  The mini-splits heat as well as cool, and are using a laughably small amount of juice in the process.  Given what my strengths are (I'm better with wires than pipes), the solar array with tankless heaters seemed to be the path of least resistance on heating water, and I've put a large tankless in with solar pre-heat to service my 3 heaviest hot water users.  

    Couple questions - what is "makeup air"?  Never heard of that.  Ditto on Fenestration.  

    I think you're right on making $ off the power, which is why I've elected to just do Gross Leasing and up the price.  Keeps things simpler, and with the built-in rent increases, it more than covers the reduced costs.  Also, this neighborhood and tenant base wants fixed costs, and seems to be willing to pay a premium for them.  

    But....on this same note, I am looking at another building.....and its all separately metered!  Hooray!

    I agree 100% with exhausting the energy efficiency upgrades before investing in PV.  Panels and inverters aren't cheap, and I don't gain anything by over-production unless I want to go really crazy with a battery wall setup.  

    Thank you for chiming in, you seem like you have way more knowledge about this stuff than I do.  Appreciate the feedback!

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    Gang BP - been a bit, but I finally have a side-by-side comparison of energy use.  For the month of March 2017 (old building, old AC units, old windows), total use was 1482 kWh for building.  

    For the month of March 2018, with roof, windows, AC upgrades and tankless water/solar heat - Total use.....drumroll.....

    580kWh. 

    Full disclosure, there are about a million things that go into power consumption, weather patterns, etc.  However, the overall trend, while not as good as I'd hoped, is still nearly 2/3 REDUCTION in power use.  As icing on the cake, the power levels are now low enough that a PV solar system would be around $11k, versus the $30K needed to power that old, inefficient pig of a building completely.  

    Onward and Upwards, but I think this might be the start of a business model here in my (very niche) home market.  

    Happy Investing,

     - Darwin

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 22 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Darwin Crawford:

    Gang BP - been a bit, but I finally have a side-by-side comparison of energy use.  For the month of March 2017 (old building, old AC units, old windows), total use was 1482 kWh for building.  

    For the month of March 2018, with roof, windows, AC upgrades and tankless water/solar heat - Total use.....drumroll.....

    580kWh. 

    Full disclosure, there are about a million things that go into power consumption, weather patterns, etc.  However, the overall trend, while not as good as I'd hoped, is still nearly 2/3 REDUCTION in power use.  As icing on the cake, the power levels are now low enough that a PV solar system would be around $11k, versus the $30K needed to power that old, inefficient pig of a building completely.  

    Onward and Upwards, but I think this might be the start of a business model here in my (very niche) home market.  

    Happy Investing,

     - Darwin

    "Reduce before you produce"

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Robert Lubell - thank you, and no, I haven't forgotten you.  

    Team BP - Theoretically, you might still be reading this.  Then again, maybe not.  

    Anyhow, my next step is to complete and install a PV solar system on this place to give me if not free, then very cheap power.  I got inspired the other day by this guy: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/02/07/diy-sola...

    The nitty gritty of this is that PV solar is a very large, complex world, with a ton of obtuse language and lots of opportunities to spend money that you don't need to.  For the most part, your average investor needs absolutely none of what I'm about to tell you, so keep reading at your own risk.  Also - this really only makes sense on a master-metered building, or one that you might want to rent out with "utilities included".  

    However, if you're some niche-owning weirdo like me, and think the idea of being in the utility business is a good one, here is what I've found:  

    the first step is what you feel comfortable doing.  Does the thought of opening an electrical panel seem scary?  if so, good.  go back to work and save up enough money to pay a pro.  your health insurance will thank you.  Seriously, this $h*t is dangerous, so if you cannot read wiring, etc, it is a really really good idea to talk to a good reputable contractor in the business, and maybe even hire them.  

    I'm fortunate enough to know enough to get this done, and have some really great resources I can pull from locally, and the math works in my favor.  

    System Capacity - go to http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php and see what's what.  Your system should be sized as follows:  as much as you can comfortably afford without going broke, and don't count on making $ back from the power company.  

    For me, I elected to design this system so that it produces a surplus for at least 7 months out of the year.  The math for that can be found on your power bill and then google.  Use the average monthly kWh (kilowatt-hour) consumption and then just average it.  Mine will be a little higher because I am putting a charger at this location for my electric car.  Free sun power for driving?  Heck yea man sign me up!

    Rooting around here again on the good ol' List of Craig, I managed to locate a state of the art Inverter (the heart of the system) for 10 cents on the dollar from new, along with a pile of other widgets called Optimizers.  $4k retail?  Malarky!  Try $450 cash loaded in my truck.  God Bless America and all that jazz.  Poor dude had no idea what was in his garage...

    Panels - I'm trying to buy american where I can afford it, so there are a few options.  Shop your local dealers around, shop online, and don't be afraid to use your hands.  I'm split-testing some decommissioned panels from a CA power plant ($65 each for 315W) that need chips repaired in the glass, versus some new demo units for $170/each for 300W.  Both designed and assembled stateside.  Going used on these is A-OK, most have 25 year output guarantees, and there is a TON of "sunk energy" in each one involved in manufacturing and shipping.  Lets not waste that, shall we? 

    If you can save on the big-ticket stuff (panels, inverter, etc) then you can go ahead and get the hugely labor-saving brackets, mounting wires, and diagram done professionally, and still come out WAY ahead on this project.  I'm still gathering parts, but the tab is about 25%-30% of the quote I got from a local installer for parts alone.   

    The whole point on this project is to take an expense (in this case an average of about $200/month in power) and turn it into a revenue source from my tenants.  

    Will keep posting updates as I move this along, but so far, its looking pretty promising!

    Happy Investing

     - Darwin

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 22 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Darwin Crawford:

    @Robert Lubell - thank you, and no, I haven't forgotten you.  

    Team BP - Theoretically, you might still be reading this.  Then again, maybe not.  

    Anyhow, my next step is to complete and install a PV solar system on this place to give me if not free, then very cheap power.  I got inspired the other day by this guy: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/02/07/diy-sola...

    The nitty gritty of this is that PV solar is a very large, complex world, with a ton of obtuse language and lots of opportunities to spend money that you don't need to.  For the most part, your average investor needs absolutely none of what I'm about to tell you, so keep reading at your own risk.  Also - this really only makes sense on a master-metered building, or one that you might want to rent out with "utilities included".  

    However, if you're some niche-owning weirdo like me, and think the idea of being in the utility business is a good one, here is what I've found:  

    the first step is what you feel comfortable doing.  Does the thought of opening an electrical panel seem scary?  if so, good.  go back to work and save up enough money to pay a pro.  your health insurance will thank you.  Seriously, this $h*t is dangerous, so if you cannot read wiring, etc, it is a really really good idea to talk to a good reputable contractor in the business, and maybe even hire them.  

    I'm fortunate enough to know enough to get this done, and have some really great resources I can pull from locally, and the math works in my favor.  

    System Capacity - go to http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php and see what's what.  Your system should be sized as follows:  as much as you can comfortably afford without going broke, and don't count on making $ back from the power company.  

    For me, I elected to design this system so that it produces a surplus for at least 7 months out of the year.  The math for that can be found on your power bill and then google.  Use the average monthly kWh (kilowatt-hour) consumption and then just average it.  Mine will be a little higher because I am putting a charger at this location for my electric car.  Free sun power for driving?  Heck yea man sign me up!

    Rooting around here again on the good ol' List of Craig, I managed to locate a state of the art Inverter (the heart of the system) for 10 cents on the dollar from new, along with a pile of other widgets called Optimizers.  $4k retail?  Malarky!  Try $450 cash loaded in my truck.  God Bless America and all that jazz.  Poor dude had no idea what was in his garage...

    Panels - I'm trying to buy american where I can afford it, so there are a few options.  Shop your local dealers around, shop online, and don't be afraid to use your hands.  I'm split-testing some decommissioned panels from a CA power plant ($65 each for 315W) that need chips repaired in the glass, versus some new demo units for $170/each for 300W.  Both designed and assembled stateside.  Going used on these is A-OK, most have 25 year output guarantees, and there is a TON of "sunk energy" in each one involved in manufacturing and shipping.  Lets not waste that, shall we? 

    If you can save on the big-ticket stuff (panels, inverter, etc) then you can go ahead and get the hugely labor-saving brackets, mounting wires, and diagram done professionally, and still come out WAY ahead on this project.  I'm still gathering parts, but the tab is about 25%-30% of the quote I got from a local installer for parts alone.   

    The whole point on this project is to take an expense (in this case an average of about $200/month in power) and turn it into a revenue source from my tenants.  

    Will keep posting updates as I move this along, but so far, its looking pretty promising!

    Happy Investing

     - Darwin

    Love this. Looking forward to hearing how all this goes! As you know already, these type of multi family solar projects are my team's niche, redirecting the electric utility's revenue into your (or property owners) pocket. Master metered buildings are as sweet as it gets for this strategy, but it works for individually metered buildings as well with either utility aggregation or separate unit level energy monitoring. I would love to share some of our experiences with you and bounce more ideas back and forth. Currently have a handful of revenue generating solar projects going from SFR rentals to 20 unit buildings to 280 unit complexes.

    Just curious.. Will you be passing any savings (compared to utility costs) to tenants for marketability? If so how will you manage this as utility rates rise/fluctuate? Do you plan on simply raising rent to secure the revenue margin or would you find more value billing as a line item based on individual unit's consumption? The latter might give tenants more incentive to be energy conscience, thus increasing your NOI further.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Robert Lubell - sounds like you guys have it going on!  Good work.  

    It has been my (albeit limited) experience that tenants want and will pay for simplicity.  Lets face it, if they are that sophisticated, eventually they won't be tenants any longer.  

    With this property in particular, I tried at one point to get them on board, and got a large collective "meh" from all but one, who is a very nice hippy from Colorado.  

    So no, for most tenants, they just don't care. So I just out-maneuver/think them, and keep the ROI, and raise rents according to pre-set schedules on the lease. I don't pass savings along to them, because they don't want to participate in helping out, I can't force them to do it, and frankly, if I can get returns from mechanical investments that don't give me drama, I'm happy.

    The master-metered product is good, but also bad, because the market partially dictates what you can do.  If everyone else in the neighborhood does gross leasing, and you try to implement RUBS or some other type of system....good luck renting anything.  In this case, it has been best to just say: office space, all utilities included, $xxx per month.  

    The flip side of the coin is that this is only my limited experience.  Larger operators with different tax brackets, etc might think differently.  

    Anyway, hope this helps someone, and in the meantime, I'm back to sourcing parts.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    Team BP - bringing this one back to life.  

    I've started the permitting process on my PV system, and it's proving to be a very eye-opening experience, as I probably should have guessed earlier.  

    The beginning was a phone call to the city to speak with a planning representative.  Long story short, I came away with a list of administrative BS that I am currently slogging through.  

    The only upshot of the project so far is that the engineer I've contracted to do 1-line and 3-line drawings (look 'em up, not easy to do!) is willing to trade for some extra solar panels - he and his wife sponsor an orphanage in Haiti and they need power.  Who says the world isn't a good place still?  

    Anyhow, this is still in its early stages, and I'll keep this thread updated, as well at the YouTube channel with the project.  

    However, I've had enough time to rest after the renovation that this is getting done, come hell or high water.  The power company can just accept that.  

  • Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 6 votes
    4y

    Darwin Crawford what has been the outcome of this project four years later? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    4y

    Working great!  Have 45 panels on the roof, average power bill is about $40 and the rents have climbed nicely.  One of the better investments of my career for sure. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thanks for sharing - been a fun story to read.  And the solar hot water heaters make so much sense for AZ that it's crazy it hasn't been done by everyone . . . 

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