Hello BP community,
I have an out of state tenant who has rented my property for almost two years. He generally pays on time (some times before time) and I have never had an issue with collecting rent. Today is 6th of the month and I have not received the rent check. I called and left numerous voicemails and text messages (no response). Last year around November, we had a minor hiccup and his father proactively emailed me and apologized for the delay and said that my tenant feel sick and the father would deposit the check the next day which he did. I followed up with the father also and there was no response. Property is in Virginia and I live in New Jersey. I wanted to connect with experienced landlords to see what my next course of action should be. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Happy Investing.
That one's easy. This applies to WI, and I have no idea what the eviction process is in VA. In WI, when someone hasn't paid the rent by the due date, I send a 5 Day Notice. Good tenant or bad, it makes no difference. That's the first step in the eviction process. I either hand deliver them, or mail them certified.
Usually the tenant will make contact at some point. If they pay up, with late fees, no biggie. I do note in their file that they've had a 5 Day Notice, and when. I also keep the proof that I sent it in the form of the certified mail receipt and a copy of the notice itself; there's times here when I won't have to send another one if they non-pay within a specific amount of time again.
If the person contacts me and explains the situation, and when they'll pay; it's no biggie. I tell them the notice is a part of normal process, and protects me should they not hold up their end of the bargain. If they don't contact me, I check to see if they vacated, if they haven't, I post a copy of the 5 Day on their door. I also Facebook stalk them at that point, people don't realize it, but anyone can typically see that. I have found the status on a few absent tenants that way.
All that said, if this guy is a good tenant, I'd say don't worry yourself. Perhaps they're on vacation, perhaps something else completely innocent has come up. Follow due process here, as it's your only recourse.
That one's easy. This applies to WI, and I have no idea what the eviction process is in VA. In WI, when someone hasn't paid the rent by the due date, I send a 5 Day Notice. Good tenant or bad, it makes no difference. That's the first step in the eviction process. I either hand deliver them, or mail them certified.
Usually the tenant will make contact at some point. If they pay up, with late fees, no biggie. I do note in their file that they've had a 5 Day Notice, and when. I also keep the proof that I sent it in the form of the certified mail receipt and a copy of the notice itself; there's times here when I won't have to send another one if they non-pay within a specific amount of time again.
If the person contacts me and explains the situation, and when they'll pay; it's no biggie. I tell them the notice is a part of normal process, and protects me should they not hold up their end of the bargain. If they don't contact me, I check to see if they vacated, if they haven't, I post a copy of the 5 Day on their door. I also Facebook stalk them at that point, people don't realize it, but anyone can typically see that. I have found the status on a few absent tenants that way.
All that said, if this guy is a good tenant, I'd say don't worry yourself. Perhaps they're on vacation, perhaps something else completely innocent has come up. Follow due process here, as it's your only recourse.
@Johnny Hastings thanks for the pointed guidance. I really hope that this issue gets resolved fairly quickly without a 4.5 hour trip down to Virginia to find out whether he is still living in the property. My tenant has been good so I really want to give him the benefit of the doubt but wanted to check in with experienced investor like yourself to make sure I follow due process here. Thanks for your advice and will keep you updated as to the progress.
Hi Zain,
I am in NJ myself but all my properties are here in NJ. I am not sure how eviction and tenant/landlord laws work down there so it is hard to comment...
What I did notice is that you mentioned making a 5 hr. trip down if not resolved which begs the question to be asked do you not have someone managing this out of state property?? This could turn into a logistical nightmare should you need to officially evict this person yourself living out of state!!
I'd love to invest out of state but am terrified to be so far away from my properties...
How did you end up purchasing this property living in NJ?
thx,
Chris
I concur. If it is an oversight, the 5 day notice will just serve as a reminder that rent is due, but if the tenant is being squirmy, you haven't lost any more time on the eviction process. I have a tenant right now who is going through a bad year, and has been consistently late for the past 6 months. But each month, like clockwork, I send out the 5 day notice, and about a day or two later, I receive the rent.
What other numbers or contact info did he provide on his rental app? If something has happened to him, maybe there is someone else that can go by the property to check on him. Did he leave an emergency contact, or an authorized person who is able to enter his property?
Is he on social media? Maybe check there too. If he's posting pix at the bar living the high life, then he is probably being delinquent.
I concur. If it is an oversight, the 5 day notice will just serve as a reminder that rent is due, but if the tenant is being squirmy, you haven't lost any more time on the eviction process. I have a tenant right now who is going through a bad year, and has been consistently late for the past 6 months. But each month, like clockwork, I send out the 5 day notice, and about a day or two later, I receive the rent.
What other numbers or contact info did he provide on his rental app? If something has happened to him, maybe there is someone else that can go by the property to check on him. Did he leave an emergency contact, or an authorized person who is able to enter his property?
Is he on social media? Maybe check there too. If he's posting pix at the bar living the high life, then he is probably being delinquent.
@Chris Mason I purchased this property through a real estate agent who was the real estate agent for my best friend who lived in that area when I purchased the property. He was a really good real estate agent and offered to remotely manage the property for me without any property management fee. He said that he does that for all of his out of state investors. He was really helpful initially, went above an beyond throughout the renovation process, always responded if I had any requests or needed a contact info for a handyman or an insurance broker or.... I reached out to him for this issue and he has gone radio silent on me. Maybe he is travelling or I guess he is tired of helping out with no return for his efforts in sight. Yea, I self manage this property remotely. I really hope that it does not get to the point where I have to evict this guy. As I mentioned earlier, he has always paid on time with the one exception when he fell sick and his father proactively reached out and paid the rent due the next day.
@Cara Lonsdale I have served the 5 day notice. Checked my lease and it allowed me to provide notices electronically as well as through mail. Sent an email and following up with a certified mail. He only provided his contact number and his wife's contact number which is not working anymore. He provided his dad's email address which I have sent the 5 day notice as well. I will stalk him on facebook and see what he is upto. He is married with 2 children and seems to be a hard working guy from the conversations that I have had with him. Thanks for all of the advice. Really appreciate it
@Zain B. good that you served the notice. It's all business, no matter how "nice" or good person the tenant is. In many years I've managed my commercial property, I have served notices, pay rent or quit, unlawful detainer, gone to court to evict tenant and in every case, done things by the book and like clockwork. As a landlord, if you start to show that you are wavering or ignorant of the process, you will be exposing yourself to problems down the road. Good luck!
@Paul Choi I agree with you. This is the first time I have to deal with this issue so I am a bit nervous about the process but agree with your advice above. If I am going to have to evict this tenant, I might as well get started sooner rather than later. Also the 5 day notice will probably shake him a bit and signal that I mean business. I am assuming the "Unlawful Detainer" is the next step in the process? I read something online where I can file the unlawful detainer in VA and have the Sheriff deal with the process of serving him and evicting. I may have to read it more carefully. Waiting to see if there is a response soon
@Chris Mason I purchased this property through a real estate agent who was the real estate agent for my best friend who lived in that area when I purchased the property. He was a really good real estate agent and offered to remotely manage the property for me without any property management fee. He said that he does that for all of his out of state investors. He was really helpful initially, went above an beyond throughout the renovation process, always responded if I had any requests or needed a contact info for a handyman or an insurance broker or.... I reached out to him for this issue and he has gone radio silent on me. Maybe he is travelling or I guess he is tired of helping out with no return for his efforts in sight. Yea, I self manage this property remotely. I really hope that it does not get to the point where I have to evict this guy. As I mentioned earlier, he has always paid on time with the one exception when he fell sick and his father proactively reached out and paid the rent due the next day.
@Cara Lonsdale I have served the 5 day notice. Checked my lease and it allowed me to provide notices electronically as well as through mail. Sent an email and following up with a certified mail. He only provided his contact number and his wife's contact number which is not working anymore. He provided his dad's email address which I have sent the 5 day notice as well. I will stalk him on facebook and see what he is upto. He is married with 2 children and seems to be a hard working guy from the conversations that I have had with him. Thanks for all of the advice. Really appreciate it
one thing that scares me is you say your lease allows electronic notices, but your lease cannot trump state law. you need to research your local tenant laws to find out what is required of you. its good that you followed up by mail, but many times you are required to use certified mail. what will you do if you get in front of a judge and the tenant says, "I never received the letter or email." you have no proof. take this tiem to read up on local laws surrounding evictions. failure to follow proper procedures in many states can mean an extension of the time tenant is in unit, paying nothing.
@Zain B. I can't speak to what the process is in VA but it should be somewhat similar. I highly recommend connecting with an eviction attorney there. One because you are out of state and two, the eviction process has to be done by the book. Any mistake or deviation on your part could mean that the tenant can stay there longer than what's right and may have to start the process all over again.
I will probably be the lone dissenter here.
Based on past behaviour that you have reported you have no good cause to believe he will not pay. Sounds like a good tenant to me, not the sort that I would take steps to get rid of.
@Andrew B. I sent an electronic notice as well as a certified mail. I agree with you that the tenant can say he never received the email. I have proof now.
@Paul Choi I am going to research state eviction laws and than consider hiring an attorney. I will wait for at least till over the weekend before I reach out to the eviction attorney. I did receive a call back from the agent that helped me and he agreed to swing by the property just now. He also said that I should send the 5 day notice via certified mail which will be delivered to my tenant by friday.
@Ihe O. I agree with you. He is a good tenant and I want to work this out with him as opposed to get attorneys involved and drive up cost here. He has been in my property for almost 2 years and proactively maintains the property. I had an appraisal done to refi recently and the appraiser said that it really looks like your tenant maintains the property and proactively performs routine maintenance. As long as he pays within the next 5 days and pays the late fee, I will consider it water under the bridge. I have reserves to meet my mortgage commitment just in case stuff like this happens. I mean life happens to all of us. The agent mentioned to me that since I have 1.5 months of his deposit, I am still covered somewhat and if he wanted to pack his bags and relocate, he would have done that last month and not paid last months rent. He might just be backed up and the agent will follow up tomorrow with an in person visit.
Thanks everyone for the pointed guidance. Really appreciate it
I will probably be the lone dissenter here.
Based on past behaviour that you have reported you have no good cause to believe he will not pay. Sounds like a good tenant to me, not the sort that I would take steps to get rid of.
I'm sure he's a good tenant based on what has been reported. And I'm sure the tenant has a good reason. But the landlord has to take steps to protect himself and give notice. He is not proactively trying to get rid of the tenant. Remember, the tenant started the process.
Lack of payment on the date due is good cause that he may not pay because of 101 reasons. Everyone has different ways of running their RE business. I've seen all sorts of tenants so I lean towards the side of caution :)
I will probably be the lone dissenter here.
Based on past behaviour that you have reported you have no good cause to believe he will not pay. Sounds like a good tenant to me, not the sort that I would take steps to get rid of.
I'm sure he's a good tenant based on what has been reported. And I'm sure the tenant has a good reason. But the landlord has to take steps to protect himself and give notice. He is not proactively trying to get rid of the tenant. Remember, the tenant started the process.
Lack of payment on the date due is good cause that he may not pay because of 101 reasons. Everyone has different ways of running their RE business. I've seen all sorts of tenants so I lean towards the side of caution :)
You call it caution but I consider commencing the eviction process against a tenant that I don't want to evict reckless.
I disagree with that it's reckless to protect your investment, by following the terms of the lease they both agreed to. If the lease says rent is due by the 5th, and the tenant hasn't paid or even made an effort to reach out to explain why, then the landlord should follow the procedure laid out in the lease, i.e. file notice. Also I would hire an attorney to handle the eviction, that way you don't miss a step and have to start over. It's worth the cost, for sure. You don't want to evict a good tenant unnecessarily, but if they are not paying rent, are they still a good tenant?
A notice to pay or quit is not the beginning of the eviction process unless a tenant voluntarily chooses to make it so. It is standard business practice to inform a tenant of their obligation to pay. It will only become a eviction when the tenant makes that decision. This is not in the control of a landlord which is why the notice should always be sent the day following when rent is due.
Reckless is not following proper procedures to protect your business interests.@Zain B.
Over the past few years I've rented to a number of single female parents living from hand to mouth, any little event in their lives knocks them off track. Never had one not pay their rent by the last week of the month. Try to keep my cool when the rent is late, never issued a five day notice. Yes, that is important to do to protect yourself from further losses, but probably an over reaction most of the time. Whatever you do, in the long run it's often best to act in a manner that is consistent.
No questions asked-- post the 5 day pay or quit ASAP!
It's not mean, it's not harsh.. I think of it as a "legal reminder of payment due" ... that's all! I've posted probably 10 in the past year, and each time the tenant immediately responds (yes, I got ignored too) and apologies, and processes the payment that day or tells us when they are planning on paying. It's not that big of a deal.. when you don't get payment in those 5-days, that's when it gets messy and you have to get an attorney involved, but I'd bet $$ the tenant or the father will pay.
"often best to act in a manner that is consistent."
The only true manner that can be considered consistent is to adhere to the regulations as outlined by your state landlord tenant regulations.
The state establishes these codes in order to create consistency within the system. To deviate, by it's very nature, creates inconsistency as outline by these regulations. Business that issue required paper work are not overreacting they are complying with the codes and insuring consistency.
To support this fact do a search on members posting with tenant issues. 99% of the time their problems are rooted in not consistently issuing required notices to tenants.
This is the primary root cause of landlords failing in this business.
I disagree with that it's reckless to protect your investment, by following the terms of the lease they both agreed to. If the lease says rent is due by the 5th, and the tenant hasn't paid or even made an effort to reach out to explain why, then the landlord should follow the procedure laid out in the lease, i.e. file notice. Also I would hire an attorney to handle the eviction, that way you don't miss a step and have to start over. It's worth the cost, for sure. You don't want to evict a good tenant unnecessarily, but if they are not paying rent, are they still a good tenant?
Your definition of a good tenant is one who pays by the due date on the lease. I'd call that a perfect tenant. A tenant who has shown by past experience that they are able to pay their rent and take their obligation to do so seriously is a good tenant. I don't need my tenants to be perfect just good .
The first and only eviction I did cost me $15k all told. Threatening an action that has the potential to expose me to that kind of loss every time somebody doesn't pay me on the 5th is reckless.
As the saying goes don't point a gun unless you are ready to shoot.
A notice to pay or quit is not the beginning of the eviction process unless a tenant voluntarily chooses to make it so. It is standard business practice to inform a tenant of their obligation to pay. It will only become a eviction when the tenant makes that decision. This is not in the control of a landlord which is why the notice should always be sent the day following when rent is due.
Reckless is not following proper procedures to protect your business interests.@Zain B.
Eviction is a tool for removing people from my house. It is not a tool for collecting delinquent rent (you just hope that will be the outcome).
If you think I am wrong about that ask any the judge to swap the eviction order he is about to grant you with one ordering the tenant to pay and see where that gets you.
So if what you really want is for the tenant to stay and pay I can't think of anything more reckless than to initiate a process that could see him stay and not pay for the next 3 or 4 months and then leave.
All, so I sent a 5 day notice to pay or vacate the property yesterday and the tenant got back to me this morning and said that he has already vacated the property. He said that he sent me a letter two months ago letting me know that he is vacating the property and that I can keep the 1.5 month security deposit that I have. Obviously I did not receive any such letter.
His reasoning was that his kids were getting sick due to the mold at the property. He has been living in this property for almost 2 years and I have not heard of a single word about any mold issues until now. He claimed that his kids pediatrician said the reason why his kids were getting sick was because of the mold at the property. Prior to him moving into the property, I had done a full scale renovation (~$20,000) and obviously there was no mold in the property or else I would have rectified that issue and he would have freaked out at the start of the lease. My sense is that he probably running into financial difficulty and now moved in with his parents (but that's just my speculation).
I talked to the agent that helped me acquire the property and his advice to me was to let this guy go and not hold him to the lease which expires March 31, 2018. He mentioned to me that he can rerent the property easily for the same or better rent than what I was getting. He also mentioned that if I pursue this in court, it might cost me more than I will recover as he said that any and all properties may have some level of mold in them.
I am also leaning towards the agents advice as I do not think I will be able to get him back to re rent the property. My tenant is gone. He has left me with 1.5 months of rent which will help cover my December mortgage payment. Is there any letter that I should get signed by the tenant before entering my property?
Alternatively, I am considering just selling the property given the 4.5 hours away from home and management of this property will get tough down the road. Until now, everything was smooth sailing since I had spend $$ upfront renovating but I am sure 2 years would have taken its toll on the property and things are going to start breaking down.
Current rent is $1,550 and the agent believes he can get anywhere from $240k-$260k. My all in cost was $55k - $75k below the price that my agent can get me and I purchased this property about two years ago. Along the way, I took the $1,550 of his rental payment and paid my mortgage which was a 15 year fixed. Property is in the Northern Virginia market which the agent was suggesting inventory is quite low. What would you do? Sell or re rent?
@Justin
@Justin Fraser and @Thomas S. I went ahead and served him the 5 day notice and got a response first thing this morning. Tenant has vacated the property :(
@Account Closed I like the saying "don't point the gun unless you are ready to shoot". I agree that I had a great tenant on hand. Now I just need to figure out how to move on from this point
All thanks for all of the advice so far. Let me know if you have any suggestions or moving on from this point forward.
"Eviction is a tool for removing people"
You are clearly confused by the differance between a notice to pay and a eviction notice. Tenants, like yourself, that wish to troll this forum should take the time to educate themselves.
@Zain B. I would advise continuing with the eviction to insure he can not come back on you. At this point you have no protection. I would also advise you go for the full amount of compensation allowed under your lease. Check your state regulations on both these points.
I would also advise selling. With rent at $1550 on a property value of $260 K you will be deep into negative cash flow if you try to carry this as a rental long term. Unload it now while it is hopefully still in sellable condition.