Renting to non citizens
Mount Dora, FL · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 2 votes
Renting to non citizens
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Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes
8yThere was a long discussion about this 3 months ago which I am going to try and short-circuit with my opening and closing contributions
a) The immigrant status of your tenants isn't really any of a landlords legitimate business.
b) If you or anybody thinks that it is I refer you to the following below
See 6 - paras 1 and 2.
http://www.equalhousing.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
"However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status. Procedures to screen potential and existing tenants for citizenship and immigration status may violate the Fair Housing Act’s prohibitions on national origin housing discrimination.
HUD will investigate complaints alleging that a landlord inquired into a person’s immigration status or citizenship to see whether national origin discrimination may have occurred."
Note the imperative language. HUD WILL investigate.
77 Replies
- 8yMichele FischerPro MemberRental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Folks on the site would argue against this, that you are effectively harboring illegals.
I can say that we have had really good luck with it. We try to get a legal co-signer and an extra deposit, since we can't do as rigorous screening without a SSN.
One other thing we have found is keeping up with maintenance inspection and keeping up with moisture/mildew/mold issues. Hispanics tend to cook in a way that generates a LOT of steam/moisture and ventilation can be compromised.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes8y
If they are illegal, it may be a violation of federal law to rent to them. If they are here legally using work permits or something, then they should have documentation to back that up and there would be no issue. From what you've described, it sounds like they are illegal and therefore a risk. If the heat is on, they will disappear into the night with zero concern about you and your rental.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
There was a long discussion about this 3 months ago which I am going to try and short-circuit with my opening and closing contributions
a) The immigrant status of your tenants isn't really any of a landlords legitimate business.
b) If you or anybody thinks that it is I refer you to the following below
See 6 - paras 1 and 2.
http://www.equalhousing.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
"However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status. Procedures to screen potential and existing tenants for citizenship and immigration status may violate the Fair Housing Act’s prohibitions on national origin housing discrimination.
HUD will investigate complaints alleging that a landlord inquired into a person’s immigration status or citizenship to see whether national origin discrimination may have occurred."
Note the imperative language. HUD WILL investigate.
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes8y
If you are in a situation where you have absolutely no other options obviously proceed with caution. If you have or expect to have other applicants error on the side of caution. You goal is to mitigate risk. If you believe there may be a element of risk then the wise decision would be to pass and move ahead with other applicants.
This is a question or risk only. You would not be discriminating based on their nation or origin. Nation of origin is irrelevant since the same risk would apply regardless of where they are from..
- Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Ihe O. Great link.
The entire text of the excerpt you provided will help answer some of @William George spear's questions.
As long as the owner asks for SSNs from all applicants (and why wouldn't they, building systems and process is the way to grow and streamline your business and an integral part to screening application), denying someone tenancy based on the fact that they do not have a SSN is not discrimination.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@William George spear I would really suggest reading the thread other people have mentioned. There was a huge amount of detail given there.
@Thomas
@Thomas S. Being a landlord is always fairly risky.
- Charles Town, WV · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes8yScreen them as you screen everybody else. You don’t ask anyone else to prove citizenship. Starting now makes you susceptible to massive risk. Presuming they qualify in any other areas that you screen people, then you should accept them on the condition that they pay an additional month deposit. That puts whether they can rent in their court. You’ve done your job. Lots of time the extra month deposit will be too much of a stretch for them but you’ve acted legally and professionally.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
@Ihe O. Great link.
I think the entire text of the excerpt you provided will help answer some of @William George spear's questions.
As long as the owner asks for SSNs from all applicants (and why wouldn't they, building systems and process is the way to grow and streamline your business), denying someone tenancy based on the fact that they do not have a SSN is not discrimination.
Except that Landlords have no legal right to demand SSN's.
Section 7 of the Privacy Act (found at 5 U.S.C. § 552a note (Disclosure of Social Security Number)) provides that:
“It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.” Sec. 7(a)(1).
https://www.justice.gov/opcl/social-security-numbe...
So you demand my SSN - I tell you no and I have documentary proof of my ability to pay (sources of income, savings), you deny me and I go straight to Fair Housing.
The trouble with the argument that you ask it of everybody is that a discriminatory policy can be prosecuted by choosing to ask everybody questions that you know immigrants will have difficulty satisfying.
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes8y
@Account Closed
"Being a landlord is always fairly risky."
Being a investor is always fairly risky, being a landlord your goal is to reduce/eliminate risk. You achieve this through smart business management. Biggest mistake landlords make that introduces unnecessary risk is accepting the wrong tenants. Eliminating known higher risk applicants is the purpose of screening. You job is finding reasons to reject applicants not reasons to accept them. In this case there is a higher risk and therefor a obvious reason to reject.
Investors get rewarded for taking chances, landlords get punished for taking chances.
- Crystal River, FL · Member since 2017 · 68 posts · 56 votes8yI just rented to an American woman and her Mexican (daca) boyfriend. I was a little leery at first and I couldn't run much background on him but I did my due diligence by meeting him with his employer who couldn't say enough good about him so I gave them a shot. They were very appreciative and I think that makes a good tenant right there.So far so good. Sometimes you just have to take a chance on people based on little more than gut feeling.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by :
Being a investor is always fairly risky, being a landlord your goal is to reduce/eliminate risk. You achieve this through smart business management. Biggest mistake landlords make that introduces unnecessary risk is accepting the wrong tenants. Eliminating known higher risk applicants is the purpose of screening. You job is finding reasons to reject applicants not reasons to accept them. In this case there is a higher risk and therefor a obvious reason to reject.
Investors get rewarded for taking chances, landlords get punished for taking chances.
It is not smart to do things that if reported will guarantee Fair Housing investigations.
In fact it is Grade A - Stupid.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Thomas S. Because of where I live, I find this to be very low risk. If you compare it to something like the property being advertised in the link below I find it VERY low risk.
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes8y
The real question you must ask yourself is when screening applicants why do you feel it necessary to take chances and place your investment in jeopardy. Would it not be wiser on your part to mitigate your risk by rejecting higher risk applicants. Your tenants may turn out to be good but that is not the point. You screen to eliminate risk not to convince yourself to take risk.
There is zero logic in operating a business basing your operations on "taking a chance on people". That unfortunately is usually what brings people to this forum seeking help with bad tenants. I would leave the "taking a chance on people" to social workers, churches and charity groups.
The most important thing new landlords need to learn is that there is no business advantage to taking any unnecessary chances on strangers. This has been proven tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands) of times over in our business.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:
Screen them as you screen everybody else. You don’t ask anyone else to prove citizenship. Starting now makes you susceptible to massive risk.
Presuming they qualify in any other areas that you screen people, then you should accept them on the condition that they pay an additional month deposit.
That puts whether they can rent in their court. You’ve done your job.
Lots of time the extra month deposit will be too much of a stretch for them but you’ve acted legally and professionally.But if they are asked to pay an additional month then they are not being treated as everybody else. That is pretty much the definition of discrimination.
- Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
@Ihe O. Great link.
I think the entire text of the excerpt you provided will help answer some of @William George spear's questions.
As long as the owner asks for SSNs from all applicants (and why wouldn't they, building systems and process is the way to grow and streamline your business), denying someone tenancy based on the fact that they do not have a SSN is not discrimination.
Except that Landlords have no legal right to demand SSN's.
Section 7 of the Privacy Act (found at 5 U.S.C. § 552a note (Disclosure of Social Security Number)) provides that:
“It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.” Sec. 7(a)(1).
https://www.justice.gov/opcl/social-security-numbe...
So you demand my SSN - I tell you no and I have documentary proof of my ability to pay (sources of income, savings), you deny me and I go straight to Fair Housing.
The trouble with the argument that you ask it of everybody is that a discriminatory policy can be prosecuted by choosing to ask everybody questions that you know immigrants will have difficulty satisfying.
Nowhere in this excerpt you provided does it say it is illegal for a private (non-government) landlord to ask for a applicant’s social security number. In fact, asking for a SSN is a perfectly legal part of the screening process.
Here’s some more reading on the subject:
Are You Required to Put Your Social Security Number on a Rental Application?
*Excerpt from the above link:
Do I have to put my social security number on a rental application?
The short answer: No. However, there is no law that forbids landlords from asking for a prospective tenant’s social security number on a rental application.
- Charles Town, WV · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes8y@Ihe O That’s absolutely false. If an individual is unsearchable in the US databases - someone who does not have a social security number for example - as a rule it’s better to offer the additional deposit. That’s the opposite of discrimination.
- Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Ihe O. Except for the fact that private landords are not "Federal, State or local government agency" thus Section 7 doesn't apply. Further reading of your link shows that Section 7 doesn't even apply to public housing:
"Claugus v. Roosevelt Island Hous. Mgmt. Corp., No. 96CIV8155, 1999 WL 258275, at *4 (S.D.N.Y. Apr. 29, 1999) (considering housing management corporation to be state actor for Privacy Act purposes but finding that Privacy Act does not apply to income verification process for public housing program because of exception created by 42 U.S.C. § 405(c)(2)(C)(i))."
What your source documents for ability to pay cannot verify is a background check for time since last eviction, conviction ect.
On to the topic of Background checks and Disparate Impact. - Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Kyle J.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
@Ihe O. Great link.
I think the entire text of the excerpt you provided will help answer some of @William George spear's questions.
As long as the owner asks for SSNs from all applicants (and why wouldn't they, building systems and process is the way to grow and streamline your business), denying someone tenancy based on the fact that they do not have a SSN is not discrimination.
Except that Landlords have no legal right to demand SSN's.
Section 7 of the Privacy Act (found at 5 U.S.C. § 552a note (Disclosure of Social Security Number)) provides that:
“It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.” Sec. 7(a)(1).
https://www.justice.gov/opcl/social-security-numbe...
So you demand my SSN - I tell you no and I have documentary proof of my ability to pay (sources of income, savings), you deny me and I go straight to Fair Housing.
The trouble with the argument that you ask it of everybody is that a discriminatory policy can be prosecuted by choosing to ask everybody questions that you know immigrants will have difficulty satisfying.
Nowhere in this excerpt you provided does it say it is illegal for a private (non-government) landlord to ask for a applicant’s social security number. In fact, asking for a SSN is a perfectly legal part of the screening process.
Here’s some more reading on the subject:
Are You Required to Put Your Social Security Number on a Rental Application?
*Excerpt from the above link:
Do I have to put my social security number on a rental application?
The short answer: No. However, there is no law that forbids landlords from asking for a prospective tenant’s social security number on a rental application.d
You've read it topsy-turvy.
I did not say that you are forbidden as a landlord. I am saying you don't have the right to demand it.
- Investor · Morrisville, NC · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 673 votes8y
@Thomas S. I disagree with your argument that you should make decisions solely based on someone "being a stranger" (The people I rent to are strangers to me). If by "stranger" you mean someone from another country, that is exactly why anti-discrimination laws are in place. You can't deny someone housing, just because they are from another country. That can't be the sole reason for denial.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
@Ihe O. Except for the fact that private landords are not "Federal, State or local government agency" thus Section 7 doesn't apply. Further reading of your link shows that Section 7 doesn't even apply to public housing:
"Claugus v. Roosevelt Island Hous. Mgmt. Corp., No. 96CIV8155, 1999 WL 258275, at *4 (S.D.N.Y. Apr. 29, 1999) (considering housing management corporation to be state actor for Privacy Act purposes but finding that Privacy Act does not apply to income verification process for public housing program because of exception created by 42 U.S.C. § 405(c)(2)(C)(i))."
What your source documents for ability to pay cannot verify is a background check for time since last eviction, conviction ect.
On to the topic of Background checks and Disparate Impact.Landlords don't have any more right to an SSN than anybody else least of all the government agencies.
The legitimate interest a landlord can have is in your ability to pay rent. If an applicant can satisfactorily show an ability to pay rent without showing you his SSN then the landlords continued interest in the SSN is not legitimate.
Background checks that are not financially oriented do not require SSN. They have given you their name and probably their DOB. That's all you need.
As to your link - my advice is not to put yourself in a position where you need to have an attorney to argue that in the first place.
- Real Estate Broker · Redwood City, CA · Member since 2014 · 679 posts · 888 votes8yI do not see any issue with these people, as long as they qualify by credit score, income and character.
- Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 545 posts · 614 votes8y
@William George spear I agree with @Thomas S. Why are so many investors taking so many risk with tenants and their properties? You people are making this business way more complicated than it needs to be, I understand with risk comes better rewards/profits.
Set high standards for your business, run it like a professional business, follow the low, and you'll mitigate most of the unnecessary issues landlords/risk taking gamblers on this site encounter.
William, What are the criteria you require to rent your properties?
1) Credit Score
2) Income requirements
3) Background
4) Employment "legitimate" W2 status, etc....
5) I also look at Non-related Co-tenants who must be able to qualify for the property on their own to mitigate vacancy risk if one of them leaves, It's not a deal breaker but this tends to move them further down the list of qualified tenants when compared to a married couple, or two individuals who both can qualify on their own but choose to live together, there's nothing wrong with choosing the best qualified tenant.
- 8yBjorn AhlbladPro MemberInvestor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
William, they sound 'legal' to me. You mentioned one of them is applying for a Green Card? If so, that individual would already have a visa and a social security number connected with a prior visa approval or they would not qualify for the Green Card process, they are stringing you along if they do not have a SSN. Just because someone is not a citizen does not mean that they are illegal-they could be a legal resident; and in that case they would have a social security number. An exception could be an F1-student visa-holder who would have an alien number.
I came to the US legally on an H1B visa 30 years ago, got a Green Card 5 years later, and became a Citizen a few years after that.
Would I rent to an illegal-no, not when there are so many qualified legal immigrants and citizens that want a place to live.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:
@Ihe O
That’s absolutely false.
If an individual is unsearchable in the US databases - someone who does not have a social security number for example - as a rule it’s better to offer the additional deposit.
That’s the opposite of discrimination.
Search what database. You're just a landlord, you're not the FBI.
- Charles Town, WV · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:
@Ihe O
That’s absolutely false.
If an individual is unsearchable in the US databases - someone who does not have a social security number for example - as a rule it’s better to offer the additional deposit.
That’s the opposite of discrimination.
Search what database. You're just a landlord, you're not the FBI.
I am the owner of a large property management company, paid by my clients to manage and protect their assets.
Our tenant application process is where the first line of protection begins.
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