1/2 Electric in rental unit is out and can't get it fixed!

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1/2 Electric in rental unit is out and can't get it fixed!

Jeremy Bloom
Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 13 votes

Hello and thank you for your brilliance in advance. There's a lot to this electrical story but I'll try to focus on what I'm here for which is a practical and more immediate solution to a much bigger problem of a building built in 1911.

Upon purchase of a 4 unit building I find the first floor, and much of my basement, is dark. There was power, but now there's not. It's an old old building and we suspect this happened from pulling some knob and tube in the basement during the sale for insurance purposes. I'm told by a couple of electricians that the "neutral wire" is missing. The woman living here is also section 8 and I'm suprised I'm not in trouble and losing money yet. If she hadn't lived in a tent in africa most her life I am fairly sure they would take her funding away until I fix it. Or even shut the building down as unlivable. If that happens I am in big big trouble as I am not wealthy and don't have the resources in this moment.

"Dark" means 4 of 6 ceiling lights are out. The dryer outlet in her storage space used to work, but no longer so no dryer. And like we said 1/2 the lights and outlets in the basement no longer work and the hall light and front porch light are out. 

I had a couple electricians come out and they look for 30 minutes and say "you are gonna have to rip out and replace all the wiring. And in an old place like this, you gotta do the whole building because knob and tube is going to always knock out something else when you do one apartment. I agree with this idea but again not practical because I wouldn't know how to afford the place if I have to remove the tenants to redo the building.

Now... generally I've had an impossible time getting electricians out here due to busyness in general which I'm sure we all have trouble with. And while electric people say I have to rip the place apart, I see something else. In some places I see conduit moving electric from one place to another. As low income housing, I don't see needing to be perfect. I see needing to be safe, and to have things work. So my brain says "hey... why not just run conduit everywhere since we need new outlets and new everything anyway?". This is my conversation going forward with the guys who I bring in.

All that said this is going to take some time to work out and this apartment on first floor is mostly without power for the last 3 months. With crappy outlets and a bigger project needing to be the main focus, I'm not getting anyone with ideas of how to give this woman lights without saying "just use lamps". Clearly I can't expect anyone to magically connect a neutral wire but I'm wondering if anyone has ideas past battery powered lights to give these guys some light.

Of course... being from Africa living in a tent they live that way here too and cover the windows and walls entirely. This doesn't help with no natural light coming in, but we are in Maine and it's sunset about 4:13 right now. The nights are long. They continue to seem ok but I'm horrified and know that if anyone wants to they can get me in some serious trouble.

On that note that's the thing... what to do when you are on the way to getting in trouble and can't get a contractor on board?

Thanks for reading and any ideas you have are welcome. 

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John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
7y

@Jeremy Bloom As long as new electrical lines are ran to code you can specify how you want it done and the contractor should oblige.

Sounds like running new and abandoning old in place is the best option. If you don't care how it looks you could put it in conduit and surface mount the conduit and paint it to match the wall color.

I would get someone to tackle this immediately and communicate with your tenants so they know you are working on the problem.

I would make sure your heat is handled first if this is affected.

Then work on any other 240VAC circuits such as dryers, stoves and hot water heaters if applicable.

Then get the lights last.

I would try and do this without moving tenants out.

I just had a 2 story house rewired and it took a week but they worked around the one guy that was living there and he was very understanding of the situation. Electricians ran everything back in the walls with minimal damage to walls. It was an old un-grounded system that was over a 100 years old.

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  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    7y

    @Jeremy Bloom As long as new electrical lines are ran to code you can specify how you want it done and the contractor should oblige.

    Sounds like running new and abandoning old in place is the best option. If you don't care how it looks you could put it in conduit and surface mount the conduit and paint it to match the wall color.

    I would get someone to tackle this immediately and communicate with your tenants so they know you are working on the problem.

    I would make sure your heat is handled first if this is affected.

    Then work on any other 240VAC circuits such as dryers, stoves and hot water heaters if applicable.

    Then get the lights last.

    I would try and do this without moving tenants out.

    I just had a 2 story house rewired and it took a week but they worked around the one guy that was living there and he was very understanding of the situation. Electricians ran everything back in the walls with minimal damage to walls. It was an old un-grounded system that was over a 100 years old.

    2Reply
  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Look at this as an opportunity to do the right thing.  It should be possible to rewire the building without too much trouble. Electricians can "fish" wires through walls and set up for you new electrical panels for each unit.

    No need to displace the four households. No one needs to move for this kind of work. If the disruption is great, consider housing the tenants temporarily at a hotel while the work is underway.

    Expect this to require permits from your municipality/county. The licensed, bonded, and insured professional electrician you hire will "pull the permits". No sweat.

    As a real estate investor you need to maintain sufficient reserves for the unexpected. This is obviously an immediate need. Consider what resources you have and where you could get more money. Many electric companies offer incentives for improvements, start there.  If you don't have enough money in your emergency fund, how about taking out a home equity loan on your own home?

    Safety is number one. Regardless of where a family is from or what class of housing you provide, the dwelling must be safe. The building should be able to pass an inspection from the Fire Marshall, so do what it takes. Know and abide by the local codes.

    What kind of HVAC system is in place? How is it functioning? What back up system do you have in place if the heat goes out? Can't imagine surviving a winter in Maine without sufficient heat and insulation from the cold. Sometimes there are programs to help provide insulation upgrades for low income households. Check what is available in your area.

    Take pride in the opportunity you have to provide decent housing for people in your community who have little means. Network too with programs in your area that serve low income households. You'd be surprised what may be available. Good luck!

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    At this point in time you are getting nothing done because you are not hiring any one to do the work. Talk is cheap. Contact 3 electricians, maybe try Craig's list, tell them what you are looking for and ask them to submit bids. If it looks like there is money a contractor will step up. 

    1Reply
  • Robert S.
    Contractor · Milltown, NJ · Member since 2016 · 297 posts · 213 votes
    7y
    Does each unit have its own electric panel? Where are they located in the building? Do any of these panels have any extra spaces in them? Answers to these questions can help build the foundation to finding a solution to your problem. Also, if you aren’t a solid drywall patcher, this is a great time to start watching YouTube videos on the topic because that will save you money when it comes time to patch the walls after electricians do their work. Look forward to hearing your response.
    0Reply
  • Charlie MacPherson
    China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Jeremy Bloom If you're having a hard time getting a licensed electrician, try www.Homeadvisor.com.  Contractors pay for each sales lead, so they tend to treat them more seriously.  They also live and die by their reputations on that site.

    If 1/2 of your outlets / fixtures are without power, it could be something relatively simple like one side of your incoming 220 VAC has a failed wire or a bad connection. 

    If it's a bad (high resistance) connection it's a definite fire hazard and needs to be addressed immediately. Drawing current through a high resistance creates a lot of heat and that can start a fire very quickly.

    If you can manage it, it would be smart to move everybody out and power down the entire house to avoid fire and loss of life.

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  • Pat L.
    Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Just a thought. I had an older panel where one side of the bus corroded to the point that  only 110v was getting through from the main & not all breakers were still viable.

    I had to replace the entire panel & all the breakers. I only rewired the old circuits without grounds. Knob & Tube is another animal & I've found o/loaded burnt out junction boxes behind walls & ceilings that gave up one or more of the convoluted wired in circuit branches due to o/heating etc. Many circuits were simply taped rather than wire nutted so they fail from heat &/or corrosion. You're definitely looking at a complete rewire so I would get in touch of the Electrical Local & see if any of the old semi retired guys want a job. Or contact the local trade college & see if they would take it on as a course credit project.

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  • Dennis M.
    Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y
    What more is there to decide ? You gotta do it no matter what so hire a electrician that’s reasonable to get this straightened out and safe . I have African tenants and they do the same thing you describe . Wrap tapestries and ethnIc drapery around the windows and doors . Very annoying so I feel your pain . Wether she lived in a tent or not you need to offer a safe place to live and you aren’t doing that
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  • Jeremy Bloom
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    @Robert S. funny I grew up as a teenager in East Brunswick! In the purchase of the building they upgraded the panels so yes, each unit has it's own box that is in the basement. Unfortunately what they also did was "replace" the panels(was fuse boxes now breakers). There's no additional room in the boxes. I haven't been told this quite yet, but it seems that if I want to increase I have to replace the new panels they put in. And while you are right about drywall, most of my place is horsehair plaster(is that what it's called?). I'm looking for handy people to do that too. Matter o fact, as much as I love tinkering and learning, because of Section 8 and my one tenant calling the city that cited code violations, having pros do the work is my only real option. Lastly on this.... one thought I had was using conduits and running all new wire outside the wall. That feels like my cheapest option overall, and one that we can move on. Love to hear your feelings on that. For me, it doesn't mess up the walls or cause us to fish around this 100 year old mess of wire. We just create new wire and pull from that. It's not perfect but this is low income housing... I want it safe and functioning not necessarily beautiful. 

    @Thomas S. I find your comment a little flippant and aggressive. And... no ****.

    @Charlie MacPherson I think I'm learning that in Maine we simply don't have enough contractors to rehab all these really old places. I've used homeadvisor and luckily did get some response but people are moving like molasses on trying to get the job because I think contractors get to choose their work. But telling me from afar to get everyone out is a bit alarming and not what anyone has said to me who looked at it. I appreciate that because I do think it's bordering on dangerous.

    @Pat L. I find those wrapped wires too. I really am out of my mind that people do that. it's freakin' stupid and horrible and this is what city inspectors seem to miss. 

    @Dennis M. Thanks for sharing that. I agree... I want it fixed.

    I appreciate everyone's input and know it's just a matter of doing not talking. I thought I'd see what people say is all. Thanks for helping a super-newbie!

    1Reply
  • Pat L.
    Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Try approaching your local trade college. They often take on jobs under their 'qualified' instructors guidance but it could cause some disruption as they get the work done.

    We often get a retired guy through the local union looking for piece work so that may also be an option. Slow but sure. 

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  • Johann Jells
    Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Bloom:

     while you are right about drywall, most of my place is horsehair plaster(is that what it's called?). I'm looking for handy people to do that too. Matter o fact, as much as I love tinkering and learning, because of Section 8 and my one tenant calling the city that cited code violations, having pros do the work is my only real option.

     I'm not following, do you have time to work on this place yourself, code enforcement aside? If you do, then you can fish the wiring yourself working with a licensed contractor who doesn't want to do that part. It takes patience and planning, something many of them don't want to do. I have old buildings, and have done much of this stuff, old horsehair plaster walls too. Going up through walls is easy, often just 2 small holes in the wall, one to drill the plate and and one for the cat, the cross piece between studs usually halfway up a wall. fishing in the direction of the joists is easy, going across them can be done with small holes spanning the joist, notching it for the cable, and then put a steel plate over it.

    Given that your problem unit is ground floor, it's likely you can fish up from the basement very easily for outlets using "old work" steel boxes, plastic boxes don't work with plaster on lath, it's too thick. These below from Steel City are the BEST!

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  • Jeremy Bloom
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    @Johann Jells thanks for that. I would love to work with an electrician that way. I haven't been able to have that conversation because I don't have quotes regarding any of the work yet. And truthfully while I have some time and would love to do that, I also still need to work and manage the rest of things here, which everything is new to me. And the building is in the worst shape, and tenants high needs. I look forward to the future!

    I agree about the first floor too. My issue is I know nothing about nothing and can not do the work without direction I don't have. Hopefully now that a couple people have been here I can hound their offices to move on quoting some work. The guys who come out are mostly like "this place is a nightmare".

    @Pat L.  I also called a local tech college and they say the idea is good but insurance is the issue.

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Bloom:

    @Johann Jells thanks for that. I would love to work with an electrician that way. I haven't been able to have that conversation because I don't have quotes regarding any of the work yet. And truthfully while I have some time and would love to do that, I also still need to work and manage the rest of things here, which everything is new to me. And the building is in the worst shape, and tenants high needs. I look forward to the future!

    I agree about the first floor too. My issue is I know nothing about nothing and can not do the work without direction I don't have. Hopefully now that a couple people have been here I can hound their offices to move on quoting some work. The guys who come out are mostly like "this place is a nightmare".

     That's not surprising. There's so much work in most places right now that tradesman can be choosy about their projects, and my experience is that many of them are not at all thrilled about working on old, existing structures - everyone wants new construction. It's clean, walls are open, no one is living in the house to complain about the mess or the time it's taking, etc. If you are going to own properties and manage them, you really seriously need to come to relationships with:

    HVAC, Electrician, Plumber, Pest Control, Roofer. That covers most anything that will be an emergency. Because of the relationships I've built with each of these I've had them out there on weekends, late, no problem dealing with emergencies. 

    Alternatively, you can learn how to do everything yourself so that you can address issues as they come up.

    On your existing problem: you may be able to provide some temporary relief for lighting and small outlet issues with a heavy-duty industrial/outdoor rated extension cord routed to a working receptacle on a circuit that's not already loaded down. Not a homeowner jobber, something like this:

    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Voltec-Industries-100-ft-...

    As long as you're running it to a receptacle that's on a 15 amp circuit already, you should be able to run a handful of lights and a couple of outlets on it. But this is obviously no replacement for rewiring the unit, just something to not have your tenant sitting there in the dark. And you definitely want to run it to an outlet that's on a breaker so that protection is still in place, and one that preferably doesn't have anything else being used on it so you know you've got this temporary 15 amp circuit in place. 

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  • Amy A.
    Portland, ME · Member since 2012 · 616 posts · 550 votes
    7y

    I have lots of wiring in conduits in my old buildings. You will find that electricians and plumbers love to rip open walls and leave you a mess. I'm for leaving the wall intact. Good luck!

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  • Jeremy Bloom
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    @JD Martin thank you for all that wisdom. I definitely hope to make relationships for the long term. It's just frustrating because I don't have them right now so I'll keep going. And loved the idea about running the heavy duty cable but they do have power in most outlets... the outlets just suck and there's not enough power for a 4 bedroom family apartment.

    @Amy A. I agree. Thanks for not making me feel nuts!

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  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Go to your local electrical supply house, where the pros go to get their supplies and tools. Ask for a referral to a good and ethical electrician.

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  • Jeremy Bloom
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    @Marcia Maynard thank you for that. I did that as part of my process which I'm happy to say after 3 months is over.

    I wanted to thank everyone on this page for your input. I did FINALLY FIND A GUY who wasn't a big company but an individual who wanted to help. He solved the problem temporarily and the lights are now functioning again. From here he's going to come back to fix more permanently and then go forward from there to fix and improve things with me.

    What I learned is that a small guy isn't looking for the perfect job to jump in and send 10 guys to. He took interest in solving the problem and instead of waiting 3 weeks for his schedule he squeezed me in. I waited 3 weeks for the other companies and then they said, "um, this place is a mess and we don't even want to quote it". Maybe I just wasn't lucky but in an old place like this a small guy is the way to go when tenants are in the building and you just have to solve a damned problem.

    And as for dealing with tenant I'm just lucky she didn't call the housing authorities. 

    And here's the best part for everyone... the very moment those lights went on, her bathtub backed up. Now I have plumbers to work with and tenants that dump cooking oil down the drain. So now it's on to solve the next thing. I think I have a long road before this place is easy to handle. Oy. :)

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  • Carl Hebert
    Rental Property Investor · Auburn, ME · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 140 votes
    7y

    @Jeremy Bloom What town is your building in? Sounds like some of the buildings I have in Lewiston and Auburn lol.

    I usually replace all the electrical when I do a remodel on an apartment. My property manager is also a journeyman electrician and works with a master electrician who pulls permits and inspects his work. We put a panel in the apartment and run all new wire from there. New hanging ceilings give them access to the upper walls to run wire on the upper floors and first floor is easy because of the basement access. 

    I have not regretted spending the extra money at the start as it saves on headaches down the road and puts the electric up to modern code. 

    Glad you found a person willing to look at it over time and get it patched up for you. Like others have said I would really look into redoing the electric one unit at a time. If you can swing it I would evict one and move the other tenants into the finished one as you go. 

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