Can you take a pet deposit for service dog?
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50 Replies
- Real Estate Agent · Troy, MI · Member since 2018 · 39 posts · 21 votes7y
It is ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL to charge any fee for a service dog according to Federal Fair Housing Act. Doesn’t matter if you like the breed or not, any dog can be trained to be a service dog.
Please, please, please do more research.Fair Housing Act should already be known if you are a landlord!
- Real Estate Agent · Troy, MI · Member since 2018 · 39 posts · 21 votes7y
@Alvin Sylvain doesn’t matter, though. Cannot charge for either.
How are you the one to say an emotional support animal isn’t needed? Maybe someone deals with a mental health issue where they need their pet around. I understand people do take advantage, but some DO need it.
- 7yBernie NeyerPro MemberInvestor · Chanute, KS · Member since 2016 · 160 posts · 60 votes
Joe Arida, is correct. Pit bulls are never used as service animals. While they can be quite loyal, they are usually not easily trained and tend to lose focus if a threat draws their attention. In addition, they are considered a dangerous breed. If you check your insurance, it probably has a rider for large breed dogs and may even directly mention the breeds the rider is for.
- Rental Property Investor · Littleton, CO · Member since 2014 · 150 posts · 114 votes7y
Search the forums for this topic, and check with your insurance company. I believe I read that if your insurance disallows certain breeds that are considered to be aggressive (like mine does), it can be an undue hardship on the landlord, and you may need the tenant to take out an insurance policy to shield you, the landlord, from any liability if there was an incident, you should probably check with a lawyer as well.
- Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
I wouldn't do it. Often people with disabilities have longer residencies than your average tenant. That's super attractive. Give them incentives and make them happy. A service dog is part of their life and health management.
- Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes7y
@Russell Brazil is not a guy you should disagree with when it comes to real estate law. But I do have a question. Doesn't fair housing say you cannot "discriminate" against protected classes? In other words they must be treated as all your other tenants. So if you charge an additional deposit for animals for everyone else then how is it discriminating to charge a extra deposit for a service dog?
Like you said the law is complicated. The rules are different for a property you live in. I don't recall the details but in some situations Fair housing does not apply. Russel B probably knows.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes7y@Ned Carey Great question Ned. I actually just posted this on another thread. The HUD guidance memo on service animals states "A service animal is not a pet." Service animals fall under the Fair Housing Acts "Reasonable accommodation" requirements for providing housing to the disabled. HUF guidance memo FHEO-2013-01.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 3 votes7y
I didn't even have to read all the comments on this and can see how uneducated some people are about this specific issue. It is a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION to even ATTEMPT to ask for paperwork, attempt to get any deposit or require ANY documentation to confirm the validity of any training or medical condition of the possible tenant. How do I know? I have a service dog (disabled veteran here). As was suggested by a couple other people on here, the ONLY alternative is to find a more qualified tenant and rent to them instead. There is absolutely NO paperwork required under federal law to even certify any training was successfully completed. Many people believe otherwise, but that is not the case (meaning it's not the case that paperwork is required). Why? Because there are MANY disabled Americans (obviously not just veterans) who have owner-trained service dogs and these "teams" are accepted under the ADA as legitimate service dog teams. Why? Because not every 'team" has the option to enter into a formal program for training. As a matter of fact, there is a rather lengthy waiting list for the few programs to actually do exist and that waiting list can be as long as 24 months. The closest training program that I found for me (at the time I was searching a few years back) was HOURS away and out-of-state at that.
As mentioned on here, federal law trumps local law. That last thing you want is a lawsuit for a violation of the FHA (Fair Housing Act) and ADA. Many legitimate service dog "teams" get a bad wrap because of the fake teams that are out there. Under federal law there are only 2 questions any one can legally ask to any service dog handler. 1. Is the dog a service dog required because of a disability? 2. What task is the service dog trained to perform? The response to this question can literally and LEGALLY be as vague as "My dog provides a medical alert for a medical condition that is private in nature". Anything above and beyond this (unless volunteered by the disabled person) is a civil rights violation. One of the key reasons that breed is so passionately contested is because federal law does not exclude any breed from being a service dog. As a matter of fact, countless veterans with PTSD have successfully trained (yes, even owner trained) pit bulls and other less "desirable" breeds to be their service dogs and even gone to the point of rescuing them from shelters.
If a lawsuit were pushed all the way, an insurance company can be found in violation of the ADA for dropping insurance because of a pit bull or G shepherds since they're NOT legally pets. I don't know how many disabled "teams" have taken it that far, but I've sat in more than my fair share of classes to know this by heart. Part of the problem is that there is no blanket standard across the board and the only one (blanket standard) that DOES exist across the board is so vague that it typically prompts emotionally discussion across the board because of those who are inexperienced in this aspect of the quality of life for the disabled typically stereotype the legitimate disabled community with the fakers that are out there. Then the disabled community that's legitimate responds back in anger because we're convinced that the rest of community that is not disabled isn't understanding of the disability and/or is lumping us in the fake service dogs. BOTH sides need to come together. One of the things that the disabled veteran community is STRONGLY encouraged to do is to take the time to help encourage and expose those that ask legitimate and sincere questions and educate them. Many times, it's just a matter of a sincere misunderstanding and the person who's asking the questions genuinely hasn't be familiarized with federal law. HOWEVER, since anxiety is a legitimate medical condition with which a service dog can be required, many times, just the approach of the discussion prompts a panic attack since the questioner (in some cases) is less than cordial in their asking OR the service dog handler anticipates a confrontation that may never take place in the first place.
For the person (@ Scott Schultz) you can NOT ask for documentation because there is NONE required under federal law. Federal law trumps state law. @ Alvin Sylvain, the former (service animal) is NOT always fully trained because they have to be in the public in order to be trained in the first place. How do you think the puppy gets trained? In a private setting to get ready to go into the public? This is one of the very reasons why this is such a contested topic in so many arenas and ways because so FEW people actually understand this. The BEST way to assess if a dog is a service dog is to see how it responds to other dogs. Many dogs are territorial, HOWEVER, the method I'm describing here is nowhere NEAR full proof because if there is a service dog in training, that dog could literally be adjusting to the public that it's being trained to take care of it's handler in. You can NOT just "know" which one you're dealing with. Since the federal law does NOT provide specific guidelines for service dogs and "teams", there's no way that local communities can try to implement any rules that federal law doesn't recognize at all.
@ Calvin Ozanick, you can NOT request documentation "for the animal in question" because under federal law, there IS NO documentation required.
Since owner trained service dog "teams" cannot make it to training facilities, the federal law recognizes this AS WELL AS the fact that there is such a long waiting list and countless disabled Americans do not have the time to wait as long as 2 years to get a service dog. THAT is one of the reasons why the federal law is written the way it is.
IF you do try to charge a security deposit for a service dog "team", I wouldn't even want to be standing beside you in court when the judge hands your head to you on a platter. In the highly unlikely event that the local jurisdiction isn't familiar with the law (some law police are not familiar with the law), than any higher court that sees this case on appeal will GLADLY make sure you never make this same mistake again. For those naïve enough to attempt to quote Wisconsin or any other state law, they have NO experience with the federal law, which I notice NO ONE is quoting here. The fact that there are even posts on here alleging "BS" shows the stereotypical response from countless people who draw conclusions before getting all the facts. Absolutely disappointing coming from investors.
In the end, I hope this answers the OPs question. I know some of my post is redundant, but so are some of the responses that I'm seeing to the OP. I'm passionate about this topic for pretty obvious reasons. Medically retired Marine Corps veteran here.
- Cambridge, MA · Member since 2015 · 652 posts · 736 votes7y
@Ned Carey I think I'm going with the spirit of the laws instead of the letter. Since we rent on the extended stay market for these 2 units, or in the case of the one on our first floor, sometimes the short term market, we can learn to breath through any concerns we have and treat prospective tenants or guests with service animals or support animals exactly the same as we treat other prospective tenants or guests. So if someone with a bit bull as a support dog wants to rent our first floor apartment for an extended stay, I would ask them how the bit bull would handle sharing the building, backyard & patio with a cat. In other words, I would not expect anything of that prospective tenant that I don't expect of other prospective tenants.
@William Clark Thank you for your service AND your passion. The one piece of advice you have that I have a bit of an issue with is "the ONLY alternative is to find a more qualified tenant and rent to them instead." Doesn't that defeat the very heart of these laws? I don't normally wait around for the most perfect prospective tenant to apply and I'm definitely not going to do so in order to circumvent the ADA or FHA.
- Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes7y
I am following the guidance of the Legal team at the Wisconsin Realtors Association, they have written many articles regarding the 2017 law, as Realrors we are held to a higher standard, and there advice is backed by case law. I appreciate your opinion, but I will take my legal advice from a panel licensed by the State and have passed the Bar, the Attorneys I pay dues for specialize in Fair Housing, ADA and related, they all agree, as landlords we are allowed to ask for proof under the law.
Originally posted by @William Clark:
I didn't even have to read all the comments on this and can see how uneducated some people are about this specific issue. It is a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION to even ATTEMPT to ask for paperwork, attempt to get any deposit or require ANY documentation to confirm the validity of any training or medical condition of the possible tenant. How do I know? I have a service dog (disabled veteran here). As was suggested by a couple other people on here, the ONLY alternative is to find a more qualified tenant and rent to them instead. There is absolutely NO paperwork required under federal law to even certify any training was successfully completed. Many people believe otherwise, but that is not the case (meaning it's not the case that paperwork is required). Why? Because there are MANY disabled Americans (obviously not just veterans) who have owner-trained service dogs and these "teams" are accepted under the ADA as legitimate service dog teams. Why? Because not every 'team" has the option to enter into a formal program for training. As a matter of fact, there is a rather lengthy waiting list for the few programs to actually do exist and that waiting list can be as long as 24 months. The closest training program that I found for me (at the time I was searching a few years back) was HOURS away and out-of-state at that.
As mentioned on here, federal law trumps local law. That last thing you want is a lawsuit for a violation of the FHA (Fair Housing Act) and ADA. Many legitimate service dog "teams" get a bad wrap because of the fake teams that are out there. Under federal law there are only 2 questions any one can legally ask to any service dog handler. 1. Is the dog a service dog required because of a disability? 2. What task is the service dog trained to perform? The response to this question can literally and LEGALLY be as vague as "My dog provides a medical alert for a medical condition that is private in nature". Anything above and beyond this (unless volunteered by the disabled person) is a civil rights violation. One of the key reasons that breed is so passionately contested is because federal law does not exclude any breed from being a service dog. As a matter of fact, countless veterans with PTSD have successfully trained (yes, even owner trained) pit bulls and other less "desirable" breeds to be their service dogs and even gone to the point of rescuing them from shelters.
If a lawsuit were pushed all the way, an insurance company can be found in violation of the ADA for dropping insurance because of a pit bull or G shepherds since they're NOT legally pets. I don't know how many disabled "teams" have taken it that far, but I've sat in more than my fair share of classes to know this by heart. Part of the problem is that there is no blanket standard across the board and the only one (blanket standard) that DOES exist across the board is so vague that it typically prompts emotionally discussion across the board because of those who are inexperienced in this aspect of the quality of life for the disabled typically stereotype the legitimate disabled community with the fakers that are out there. Then the disabled community that's legitimate responds back in anger because we're convinced that the rest of community that is not disabled isn't understanding of the disability and/or is lumping us in the fake service dogs. BOTH sides need to come together. One of the things that the disabled veteran community is STRONGLY encouraged to do is to take the time to help encourage and expose those that ask legitimate and sincere questions and educate them. Many times, it's just a matter of a sincere misunderstanding and the person who's asking the questions genuinely hasn't be familiarized with federal law. HOWEVER, since anxiety is a legitimate medical condition with which a service dog can be required, many times, just the approach of the discussion prompts a panic attack since the questioner (in some cases) is less than cordial in their asking OR the service dog handler anticipates a confrontation that may never take place in the first place.
For the person (@ Scott Schultz) you can NOT ask for documentation because there is NONE required under federal law. Federal law trumps state law. @ Alvin Sylvain, the former (service animal) is NOT always fully trained because they have to be in the public in order to be trained in the first place. How do you think the puppy gets trained? In a private setting to get ready to go into the public? This is one of the very reasons why this is such a contested topic in so many arenas and ways because so FEW people actually understand this. The BEST way to assess if a dog is a service dog is to see how it responds to other dogs. Many dogs are territorial, HOWEVER, the method I'm describing here is nowhere NEAR full proof because if there is a service dog in training, that dog could literally be adjusting to the public that it's being trained to take care of it's handler in. You can NOT just "know" which one you're dealing with. Since the federal law does NOT provide specific guidelines for service dogs and "teams", there's no way that local communities can try to implement any rules that federal law doesn't recognize at all.
@ Calvin Ozanick, you can NOT request documentation "for the animal in question" because under federal law, there IS NO documentation required.
Since owner trained service dog "teams" cannot make it to training facilities, the federal law recognizes this AS WELL AS the fact that there is such a long waiting list and countless disabled Americans do not have the time to wait as long as 2 years to get a service dog. THAT is one of the reasons why the federal law is written the way it is.
IF you do try to charge a security deposit for a service dog "team", I wouldn't even want to be standing beside you in court when the judge hands your head to you on a platter. In the highly unlikely event that the local jurisdiction isn't familiar with the law (some law police are not familiar with the law), than any higher court that sees this case on appeal will GLADLY make sure you never make this same mistake again. For those naïve enough to attempt to quote Wisconsin or any other state law, they have NO experience with the federal law, which I notice NO ONE is quoting here. The fact that there are even posts on here alleging "BS" shows the stereotypical response from countless people who draw conclusions before getting all the facts. Absolutely disappointing coming from investors.
In the end, I hope this answers the OPs question. I know some of my post is redundant, but so are some of the responses that I'm seeing to the OP. I'm passionate about this topic for pretty obvious reasons. Medically retired Marine Corps veteran here.
- Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes7y
@William Clark under the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988 landlords may be permitted to require proof of the need for a service or ESA this is very clear in the amendments to the 1968 law
- Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 3 votes7y
I tell you what, you go ahead and try to take that with you to court Scott Schultz and we'll see how that works out for you. As your listening to the judge render your fine, I'll be behind you in court shaking my head for someone who was warned. But suit yourself.
- Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 3 votes7y
I also noticed something else, there's no mention of the privacy guaranteed to the disabled person from you. Only an attempt to cite the FHA, which I've also read word for word. You might try that again Scott.
"I don't normally wait around for the most perfect prospective tenant"
You should as a responsible landlord. That is the purpose of screening, to find the best, although not perfect, in order to reduce your risks.
As a landlord it is your aim to insure you get the best applicant to suite your needs. It is your property after all. If this means no animals then so be it. It is not discrimination for a investor to choose the best option provided the animal is removed from the scenario when screening. If for example a applicant with a service animal is less qualified due to income, credit score, past rental history you reject their application.
Never allow fear to dictated how you operate your business.
- Cambridge, MA · Member since 2015 · 652 posts · 736 votes7y
@Thomas S.I would be a lot more picky if I was in the long term rental market. Being in the extended stay market means my #1 goal is to keep the units occupied all the time. That means the first tenant who is verified as being who they claim to be and who is willing to sign a short term lease and pay the last month's rent and, for one unit, a security deposit, gets the unit. I don't take the unit off the market until the tenant initiates the payment(s) but I also don't wait around for the perfect tenant. In fact, as I thought about my tenants who are "less than perfect" in my mind, I realized that the less than perfect attributes that popped into my mind were what I consider prejudices. This year I have signed leases with 2 different tenants who have a small child. I have to admit I wasn't sure the in-law apartment would survive the rambunctious 5-year-old and our cat definitely wanted to know what in the world I was thinking. But the apartment survived, the cat survived and I totally loved the family. I am sure we will survive the 3-year-old who will be here in a few weeks.
Makes scenes, your market does not allow you to be as selective as conventional rentals. And yes "less than perfect" does often boil down to prejudices when screening. I am highly selective in choosing tenants and unfortunately this often means to get the right fit you must do what is best not what is right. As a example you would not rent to a young family in a upper unit duplex. To do so would be a very poor business decission.
- Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes7y
@William Clark first off the FHA and FHAA are different things, I am referring to ADA and FHAA rules FHA= Federal Housing Administration ADA= Americans wit Disabilities Act, FHAA= Fair Housing Amendments Act
Second The FHAA clearly allows for proof of need for the service animal for long term tenancy purpose, it also clearly states a landlord may not ask about the disability, so a disabled person does not need to disclose what the disability is, but may require proof of need by an appropriate licensed person.
The 1968 Law would be consistent with what you are saying, but the 1988 Amendments modify the 1968 law, I am confident the panel of Lawyers at the Realtors Association would easily defend their position in court. I dug deeper and the language is clear as a bell, and has opinions from Lawyers at both Wisconsin Realtors Association, and National Association of Realtors. William where did you pass the Bar Exam? Im not a lawyer just expressing the opinion of about 100 Lawyers that specialize in this type of law.
- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 466 posts · 471 votes7y
Originally posted by @Carolyn Fuller:
@Alvin Sylvain I have a close friend who has a dog for EMOTIONAL SUPPORT. I really disagree that they are a BS scam. It is true that someone could probably get by better without their emotional support animal than someone trying to get by without their service animal but I, for one, am glad that the ADA encompasses emotional support animals.
Look up the "Emotional Support Pig" that pooped all over the airplane. Look up the "Emotional Support Peacock" that the airline finally had the guts to say "NO" to.
I have no doubt that having an animal for "emotional support" can be very supportive, emotionally. Hardly a week goes by when I don't hear about another study about the benefits animals bring to humans, for cancer patients, autism, Alzheimers, etc.
Nevertheless, it remains a fact that there are people out there scamming the system. There are "doctors" who will give your mutt a "certificate" for a nominal fee without even meeting you or the mutt. So now with this "certificate" you're supposed to be able to rent a unit without paying extra rent, or extra deposit, you're supposed to be able to drag this mutt on to an airplane without paying extra ... the list goes on.
I'm not saying it's 100% scam. It's just that the 90% scammers are giving the rest a bad name.
- Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes7y
@Alvin Sylvain from my reading of the ADA and FHAA there is a clear distinction between a Service Animal and an Emotional Support Animal (EAS) the EAS does not always have the same protections under the law, to afford the same protections there needs to be "a Psychiatric need" the words specifically used, and it went on to say you could require proof from a medical or psychiatric professional.
On another note, be careful using the term non-refundable deposit. I know in Washington there is no such term.
The difference between a deposit and a fee is that one is refundable and the other is not. A deposit is an amount of money that a tenant must pay before or at the time he/she moves in. The deposit is often refunded at the end of the rental period IF it was not used to compensate the landlord for damage or repairs.
I agree with others that I'd look for another reason to decline. I would look into service animals and emotional support animals. I know in Washington they're cracking down on people taking advantage of that.
Did you ever see her with a miniature horse as her guide animal?
Fact: Pit bulls can and are used as service dogs. Their muscular build can be good for people who have balance issues. There is no breed restriction on what types of dogs can be service animals and all types have their uses.
Fact: There are organizations dedicated specifically to training pit bulls as service dogs in part to help eliminate the stigma this breed has.
Fact: Miniature horses can be used as guide and service animals.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes7y
ADA is not the applicable law for landlords. It governs a completely different arena, Public Accommodations.
The Fair Housing Act (And it's Amendment) is what governs housing.
While the ADA does make a distinction between ESA and Service Animals....that has no baring on housing. The Fair Housing Act....and all HUD guidance memos do not distinguish between ESAs and other Service Animals. HUDs guidance on the subject is crystal clear, and is found in HUD guidance memo FHEO-2013-01. In fact the guidance memo explains the difference between ADA and FHAs definitions.
Further HUD goes on to give guidance on what you may ask for if the disability is not readily apparent.
Laws emanate from all three branches of the government. The problem is people read the law as written by the legislature and think thats it. Guidance memos from the executive branch, carry the full weight of law.....but these are harder for people to locate because they simply dont know that they exist, nor that these are as much law as what the legislature writes in a bill.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - 7yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
I just finished up a lawsuit last summer with a tenant who tried to claim much of the misinformation that is being spouted in this thread.
She claimed:
1. That I was not even permitted to ask for papers on the dog after she moved it in.
2. She claimed it was a Service Dog that she was training herself (um no, that's not how service dogs work)
3. She filed a lawsuit with HUD and the Colorado state department of regulatory affairs for Discrimination Against a Disabled Person
She lost and now owes me/my attorney over $20,000 for filing the lawsuit. So, at least in Colorado, when a tenant files a lawsuit for discrimination on the basis of a Service Dog and/or an emotional support animal, here is how it plays out.
A. If the disability is not obvious (ie, your tenant is not obviously blind, in a wheelchair, etc), you may ask what service the dog performs. You may not ask what the disability is nor may you ask for a medical diagnosis.
B. You may ask for a doctor's note, written within the last 12 months, that states that a dog is medically necessary. The best my tenant could provide was a note several years old that said "Bob would like to have a dog because dogs can help with emotional needs." The letter needs to say "Bob needs to have a dog that is capable of detecting a negative emotional response to certain stimuli and can help distract and redirect Bob's attention from that response and guide him towards blah, blah blah.... It's a prescription, essentially.
C. A service animal is WAY different than an emotional support animal. A service animal is highly trained by experts (not the person who is "self training", as my tenant was) to perform specific tasks like open doors, retrieve objects, alert to medical emergencies, provide sight or hearing assistance, help with seizures, etc. ONLY a dog or a miniature horse can be certified as a service animal. A disabled person requires the assistance, and generally must have the animal present in order to work, access public transportation, services and goods, etc. The dog is working when it is out in public, unless it is specifically being taken out to go to the bathroom.
An ESA is whatever your prospective tenant says it is.
My tenant learned a hard lesson by taking the position she took. She got herself evicted over it, I got my life threatened over it (which she then had to spend months dodging service for a restraining order over), had to continually travel back to Colorado for court dates after she moved out of state and now owes over $20,000 back to me/my lawyer over it.
Last I heard, she was still living in a travel trailer, having to move every 30 days because the eviction on her record is her third one and nobody will now rent to her. I took a chance on her and she treated me like I was some villain in a Dickens novel, but my point is - for those of you stating definitively all of these weird assertions about service animals and ESA's - you're wrong.
- 7yJennifer T.Pro MemberInvestor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
Originally posted by @Carolyn Fuller:
Yikes! The legal system is soooo complicated!
I think we have avoided this issue for now because we are charging a security deposit for all human renters, regardless of whether they have a pet.
But we have an in-law apartment on the first floor of our home. We already have a cat and don't allow our tenants to have pets. We don't charge a security deposit for this apartment because we aren't so concerned about the apartment being damaged but we are concerned that a dog might damage our cat so we'd prefer to avoid that scenario all together. I guess we have to trust that a service animal would not go after our cat...
Assuming your owner-occupied home is 4 units or less, you are actually in a totally different ball game. You don't have to accept any animals if you choose not to. Doesn't matter if it is a service dog/mini-horse or an ESA. Because the building includes your personal home. I wouldn't necessarily say that to someone since there is no need to invite trouble. But the same rules don't apply to you for obvious reasons.
Caveat: Not a lawyer. Do your own research.
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