The Tenants from Hell - How to Deal? Help Me.

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The Tenants from Hell - How to Deal? Help Me.

Joyce Y.
Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 2 votes

I am a total newbie in this forum so sorry if i'm writing about a subject that sounds like a broken record but i need some advice (and comfort!). My husband has been landlording for about 2 years and he recently asked me to be more active in the business, starting with tenant relations. I work in corporate marketing for a Fortune 500 and am good with people so i thought, sure, no problem.

We currently have a tenant who is a complete monster. He doesn't abuse the property, but he does verbally abuse us. When his lease is up in August, he wants to move out and let his brother move in. The advantage for the tenant is that he gets to leave his furniture in the house, he's basically just packing up his clothes and moving in with someone else, and his brother wants to move in right afterwards, with the furniture already there. Our response to that is, Ok, but that means the security deposit has to be surrendered b/c there's no way for us to do an inspection while their belongings are still there.

The tenant called me and verbally harassed me. He called me a motherf***, said he was going to sue our company, wanted me to burn in hell, and other threats that i cannot type here.

How do you handle the tenant from hell b/c i honestly feel like that's where he came from. For those of you who landlord over 50+ properties, how do you emotionally handle these kinds of situations b/c it tore me apart.

As a side note, we'll be sending him a notice that we're terminating his lease and that all future communication needs to be through email. Forget the brother, there is no way we're going to rent to him.

Another question - For those of you who run a husband and wife operation, do you hide that fact from your tenants - if they ask, are you honest? If so, does that hurt the credibility of your landlording?

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Aly W.
Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
14y

Welcome to BP, Joyce. You've gotten great advice from folks already. And as Jon K. pointed out, the corporate and landlording worlds are very different. I have a corporate background, and when my very first tenant cursed me out over the phone for something I can't even remember, I was shaking and shocked. I actually felt physically ill, since this was behavior I'd never experienced in an office environment.

Jon is right, you'll learn to let it roll off after you've dealt with it more than once. After 4 years of this, I don't take it personally when a tenant trashes a place or doesn't pay the water bill and threatens to sue when they don't get their deposit back. I stick to the facts and the law, and let my attorney handle what they're best at.

I hope you have an attorney who specializes in landlord/tenant law, that's a very important person to have on your team. Not an attorney who specialized in divorces or adoptions. Let them write your leases, since they'll be defending them in court.

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    I didn't have to get through the whole post only to the furniture issue and the verbal abuse.

    Tell him the lease will not be renewed due to his communications with you and that the property will need to be vacated. And, that anyone interested in leasing the property will need to make application just as all other perspective tenants must do. You don't need to say there is no way in cane his brother will be approved to ensure you don't have to put up with others that may be similar to him. Just don't approve him!

    If a tenant asked me (which has never happened BTW) if I was honest I believe I'd ask them what they thought and if they were....

    If any landlord feels that they must approve someone if their credit score hits some mark, they have sufficient income and a good residency record, they are wrong. There are many ways to eliminate applicants without discriminating. Having a vehicle that drips oil on my driveway is good enough reason, having insufficient credit is the easiest saying without compensating factors. Personal appearence goes a long way with me and someone with a slogan tatooted to his forehead is not a protected class! Your reasons just need to be reasonable and knowing the family and saying a family member is barred from entering your property is good enough!

    As to the emotions, grow thicker skin!Good luck...

    2Reply
  • Loc R.
    Note Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2009 · 849 posts · 544 votes
    14y

    Try not to take it personally - you have to think and to paraphrase all the old mobster movies - "it's business, not personal." You are there to provide a product/service and they are there to consume that product service.

    My tenants do not know that I am married other than the fact that I wear a wedding ring.

    My wife is not involved with the interactions with tenants - that is my job.

    IMO, it is a rather quick process to determine whether you (and your husband) have the disposition to be active landlords or whether a property management company would be in your best interest.

    Best of luck.

    0Reply
  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    And do month to month leases in the future.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Lyons, CO · Member since 2011 · 57 posts · 1 vote
    14y

    Property management! I know you make less but i have NONE of these stories!

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    A month to month can be better for some properties, but there can be drawbacks too. Giving notice to vacate on a month to month must be given on the first day of the month in my state and needs to be a thirty day notice. If they stay, you can then move to evict giving notice again. By the time you get to court they can be sitting there for up to three months depending on court dates.

    If you have a lease you can terminate the lease and give ten days notice and move to evict at the same time. So you can get rid of trouble quicker with a lease than a month to month. And, on a month to month, the tenant is not obligated under consequencial damages or expenses arising after the termination of the agreement where a lease can tag someone for unpaid rents to the end of the lease if they break the lease.

    I'm sure many landlords use the hardnose approach and scare people out on a month to month, but some tenants know their rights and make it difficult.

    0Reply
  • Loc R.
    Note Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2009 · 849 posts · 544 votes
    14y

    Generally speaking, I am against month-to-month leases. IMO, if a tenant is unstable enough where they can't commit to a 1-year lease at the minimum, then that's someone I don't want to deal with.

    In addition, I try to start/end my 1-year leases in the summer (July/August), when it is easier to find new tenants.

    0Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Joyce Yeung:
    ...
    When his lease is up in August, he wants to move out and let his brother move in. The advantage for the tenant is that he gets to leave his furniture in the house, he's basically just packing up his clothes and moving in with someone else, and his brother wants to move in right afterwards, with the furniture already there. Our response to that is, Ok, but that means the security deposit has to be surrendered b/c there's no way for us to do an inspection while their belongings are still there.

    ...

    First mistake was when you said "OK"; all prospective tenants have to submit an application, regardless of their relation to any other (former or present) tenant. Don't make any exceptions to this, it must be mandatory policy.

    Second mistake is that you must handle the security deposit in accordance with your local laws. This means that you will typically have some deadline to write something that explains and itemizes charges being deducted from the deposit, and a refund of the balance. You were requiring a "surrender" of the deposit in full, and that probably would violate local security deposit laws in most areas.

    The rest of the post was about the reaction to being told to surrender - an "alpha type" individual won't like hearing surrender, and they will fight. You sure you deal with people and personalities in your job? Just because you work in marketing and communications doesn't mean you deal with people, especially the somewhat difficult types of people that renters can be. In marketing, you should be aware of how to select your words as well ...

    2Reply
  • Joyce Y.
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    14y

    @ Steve, the words i used to write my initial forum entry were for simplicity sake and not exactly the words i used with the tenant i.e. "surrender". Way to welcome a new member into the forum.

    0Reply
  • John Chapman
    Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    14y

    I totally agree with Steve Babiak's comment that you've got to require every tenant to fill out an app and screen. Doesn't matter relation. I just had a tenant move into another property of mine and he wanted his sister-in-law to take his place. The guy has been with me almost 4 years but I still required the sister in-law to fill out an app and do a background check. Turns out she had five evictions in the last 7 years. Total professional tenant taking advantage of small landlords. I denied her on the spot. I believe my current tenant that he had no idea she was such a scumbag but it goes to show you have to trust but verify.

    3Reply
  • Joe Delia
    Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes
    14y

    run his application like you would anyone else's. I don't see why you can't do an inspection with furniture there?

    I always try to cut through the "noise" and just look at the facts. What people say to or about me doesn't really matter. Usually the loudest are the weakest. I've met plenty of people where one is a jerk and the other is awesome.

    1Reply
  • Ken Latchers
    Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    14y

    You should be down at the police/sheriffs dept NOW filling out a report on the verbal abuse. That is called harassment, at minimum. When the police visit this tenant, that might change their entire behavior

    Never Never Never Never tolerate anyone performing physical or verbal abuse. Ever.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    From your post it sounds like you and/or your husband have been tolerating less than civilized communication from this tenant before. At any point, you can stop communicating with a difficult tenant via phone or email. You can write a letter that states what number to call in an emergency (that has a voice mail system) and where to send written communication about everything else. End of direct verbal abuse.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but consider using a property management company. I had to have an "intervention" with a good friend with an 8-unit with a very difficult tenant pool. She got it as part of her divorce settlement years ago and some of the tenants are super entrenched (15 plus years). I called her out in front of her new husband and her adult children because she was having a nervous breakdown from crazy tenants running a homeless hotel behind the garage, tenants with horrible child custody battles duking it out in the parking lot, and tenants threatening to kill her. (BTW, these are 1BDR units that rent for $1K/mo. Crazy tenants are in every price range.)

    She bit the bullet and pays someone 6% to deal with all tenant calls, all collections, and new tenant showings and apps. She still manages major repairs and redoing the units after vacancy because she is part owner of a construction company and can do better on on materials and labor than most property managers subs. The point is there is the right property manager for everyone, even if you have to go through a few. Preserve your sanity and your energy and don't do PM. It's so little money for so much relief.

    1Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Joyce Y.:
    @ Steve, the words i used to write my initial forum entry were for simplicity sake and not exactly the words i used with the tenant i.e. "surrender". ...

    Sorry, but how is anybody supposed to infer the words that were said by you when you aren't posting them exactly as spoken? you want help, you'll have to tell it like it actually is / was. And you'll have to get thicker skin if you're going to be dealing with tenants ...

    0Reply
  • Michael D.
    Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 355 posts · 90 votes
    14y

    I'll say it again - property management is a job completely separate from investing in real estate. Some people want to do a property management job - I don't, and maybe you don't either.

    1Reply
  • Jon Klaus
    Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    14y

    Welcome to BiggerPockets, Joyce. I won't rehash the good input above, but make a couple observations. One is that dealing with tenants is different than dealing with people in the corporate world who aren't dealing with their own money and home. It gets real personal, real fast, at the tenant/landlord level.

    The other thing is that the first bad experience is often the hardest. I hated being wronged by a tenant in the past, but now take the attitude that it's business, and if someone acts like a jerk, then they have the problem and have to live with themselves all of their days. Pitiful, really. It's not about you. Move on.

    2Reply
  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    Welcome to BP, Joyce. You've gotten great advice from folks already. And as Jon K. pointed out, the corporate and landlording worlds are very different. I have a corporate background, and when my very first tenant cursed me out over the phone for something I can't even remember, I was shaking and shocked. I actually felt physically ill, since this was behavior I'd never experienced in an office environment.

    Jon is right, you'll learn to let it roll off after you've dealt with it more than once. After 4 years of this, I don't take it personally when a tenant trashes a place or doesn't pay the water bill and threatens to sue when they don't get their deposit back. I stick to the facts and the law, and let my attorney handle what they're best at.

    I hope you have an attorney who specializes in landlord/tenant law, that's a very important person to have on your team. Not an attorney who specialized in divorces or adoptions. Let them write your leases, since they'll be defending them in court.

    4Reply
  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    14y

    Joyce Y. - You've gotten some fantastic feedback so far here. I must urge you not to take it personal, as others have already. You're going to deal with terrible tenants -- that's part of the deal. You just need to be prepared up front for how to do it so you avoid getting stuck in a bad situation.

    Otherwise, the beauty of the responses here is that everyone has kept it real with you. If you want someone to blow smoke, there are many gurus who will gladly charge you a lot of money for the exact same advice you just got, except, they will sugar coat everything for you to make you think being a landlord is easier than it is. Like with what the tenants have to say, don't take people's advice personally. No one attacked you -- they are taking the time to try and help you out.

    I only wish BiggerPockets had such a strong community when I started making my mistakes as a landlord. I would have saved tens of thousands of dollars.

    Oh -- welcome to the site. I look forward to having you as a member of the community.

    Podcast Guest on Show #100
    0Reply
  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    BiggerPockets has been there for me before I was a landlord....and helped me every step of the way, so many wonderful, helpful people on here. You'll be glad you're here :)

    Landlording is not for the faint of heart, and not easy money. But it is rewarding if you look at it long term and treat it like a business.

    As someone on BP said, "your tenants are your customers - and they are buying you a building".

    1Reply
  • Joyce Y.
    OP
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    14y

    Thanks to those of you who left kind comments and provided constructive feedback. You are absolutely right - tenants are totally different from a corporate customer and i am learning.

    2Reply
  • NA Foster
    Real Estate Investor · CA · Member since 2009 · 174 posts · 39 votes
    14y

    Hey Joyce-Welcome aboard! You might find it easier to deal firmly with people if they think you are the manager. For sure they will treat you different than if they know you are the boss. Use the search engine here to see how our members have dealt with your problem. It is not a rare occurrence and the posts here will give you all the experiences you need without having to go through the trauma of doing it by personal experience.

    0Reply
  • Dave M.
    Residential Landlord · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 356 posts · 81 votes
    14y

    Joyce Y. - welcome, and one additional note to add. Just like the corporate world, it does get easier. So you can look at the bright side and say you started out taking on a more active role with a more difficult than normal situation. Good luck in the future!

    0Reply
  • Greg B.
    Homeowner · Burleson, TX · Member since 2008 · 756 posts · 376 votes
    14y

    Welcome to BP Joyce Y. When I first started in this biz I took things personally too. I was in way too emotionally. I had to learn to handle everything very mono tone and low key.

    I now try to learn something from every tenant interaction I have. I make it a challenge to see how I can calm an upset tenant down or handle an unruly customer. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes my best isn't good enough. I still learn either way.

    I wish you well.

    0Reply
  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    I work in the corporate world, too, and having a thick skin helps there, too.

    Hiring a property management changes the stories from tenant stories to property manager stories. Whoever decided to call rental real estate a "passive investment" was an idiot.

    You need to know the laws of your area. My lease says I can terminate with 10 days notice (before the rent is due) and I've verified thats valid with my lawyer. An eviction here takes about three weeks, maybe a couple more if the courts are busy. Its just part of TCB - taking care of business, as Elvis said. So, with a month-to-month lease (i.e., a one month lease that outlines how it converts to a month to month) I know its my choice to keep the tenant.

    0Reply
  • Brad F.
    Real Estate Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 5 votes
    14y

    HI Joyce,

    Me and my fiance handle the property management on our buildings too. She handles the rent collection and the tenant "people" issues, while I handle the building maintenance calls. The tenants never see us together and as far as they are officially told, we both work for the company that owns the building - no more then that. They can think whatever they want. I've always been told a good curtain between the owner and the tenants is a good thing to have.

    We got riled up at first when we got a less-then-nice tenant call, and sometimes I worried about a maintenance problem spiraling out of control. As time has passed we both have gotten thicker skin and worry a lot less. I think it just takes getting used to. I try to remember how my property manager acted when I was in college, which was cold and legalese, and to act the same.

    Good luck.

    0Reply
  • Ed O.
    Investor · Statewide, MO · Member since 2011 · 814 posts · 425 votes
    14y

    Joyce, I'm not in the 50 unit club, but I have been there before as well.

    I keep it real simple.
    When someone yells at me, I calmly tell them, "you're yelling at me, if you continue to do so this call (conversation) is over." I give them a moment to make their decision and proceed.
    When I hang up and they call right back screaming, I repeat the line calmly and ask them to kindly call me when they have settled down.

    When face to face and they want to argue over anything, and it gets any part hostile, I calmly tell them, "I'm not going to argue this with you." If they keep going, I calmly repeat. When they realize it's not gonna happen, they usually move on from it.

    With these remarks, I'll be the first to admit, I did yell back once, despite the fact that the person had it coming tenfold, it was still inexcusable.

    A good, proper screening procedure will certainly minimize the number of people like this living in your units.

    BTW, welcome to the greatest resource on the web for real estate investors!

    1Reply
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