Denying a tenant while the property is still available?
Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes
Denying a tenant while the property is still available?
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Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6yOriginally posted by @Mike Roberts:
Just because somebody has some number points in a system somewhere does not automatically make them a good tenant, and that is really the only criteria I can post in my ad. The thing about smokers was supposed to be a polite example. I am simply asking how you more politely refuse service to somebody you do not want to deal with. I could just be a complete *** and say "sorry, your qualifications are not strong enough, I'm going to wait for more tenants to apply", but I probably won't.
I am not going to deny anybody simply because they are a "protected class", but just because they are protected, doesn't mean they can't be bad tenants also. It has nothing to do with their race/religion/sex/whatever.
I'll be blunt, too. It sounds like you are trying to deny a protected class. Everyone here has been giving good advice, but you keep saying you have this special sauce decoder that lets you know when a tenant is not suitable for you.
The bottom line is this is your property and you can rent it however you choose. However, if you break housing laws, be prepared to one day answer for it. Telling a judge that you denied someone with adequate credit, adequate income, and adequate everything else because you "did not like their kids" or that you didn't like "the way they look" is going to result in a fine. Probably a hefty one.
23 Replies
- Auburn NY · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 56 votes6y
I've heard of one way is ... if a prospective tenant doesnt fill out an application completely that is a reason for not accepting their application. ; ) But I dont know why you would want to deny a suitable tenant
- Contractor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
The fair housing laws exist for this exact reason ha. So that you don't reject them simply because you don't like them.
If they meet your qualifications put them in the unit. As you scale, you'll care less and less about liking prospects. If they meet minimum standards, they are in. - Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
Originally posted by @Edward L lauckern:
But I dont know why you would want to deny a suitable tenant
You've never met somebody you just didn't like for one reason or another? If I don't like somebody as a person, they won't be my tenant. Or maybe something just seems fishy but I can't prove it. Hopefully it won't be an issue, but who knows who is going to apply.
- Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
Originally posted by @Allan Smith:
The fair housing laws exist for this exact reason ha. So that you don't reject them simply because you don't like them.
Except the fair housing laws do not require I ever give a reason, and this is why you shouldn't give reasons. I just don't want to blatantly say I have another tenant when I don't. I could say, "Sorry, we are going to look for a different tenant", but that seems rude.
Lets be honest, rental housing isn't really that "fair" most of the time...life isn't fair. I do not want somebody that simply meets the minimum standard if I can do better.
- 6yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
@Mike Roberts You are looking for a tenant that will take good care of the place and pay rent, you aren't looking for a friend. If they don't meet your screening criteria, simply tell them that.
- Auburn NY · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 56 votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
Originally posted by @Edward L lauckern:
But I dont know why you would want to deny a suitable tenant
You've never met somebody you just didn't like for one reason or another? If I don't like somebody as a person, they won't be my tenant. Or maybe something just seems fishy but I can't prove it. Hopefully it won't be an issue, but who knows who is going to apply.
There are certain reasons you can deny tenants legally.. I would try to make one of those reasons fit as a disqualifier so you're doing it legally
- Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:
@Mike Roberts You are looking for a tenant that will take good care of the place and pay rent, you aren't looking for a friend. If they don't meet your screening criteria, simply tell them that.
You're missing the point. I am not trying to be friends. Some people just seem bad, it's that simple. Some people are obviously messy and unorganized. Some people have really bad children. There are lots of potential reasons. Ever been to rural North Carolina? Some people are just...too rural.
Let me give you an example:
People who smoke. I don't think this is a legally protected class, and I would never allow it in the house, but if I have a choice, I don't want you smoking outside either. They still stink when they come inside. I'm not going to say "you are not accepted because you smoke cigarettes". - Auburn NY · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 56 votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:
@Mike Roberts You are looking for a tenant that will take good care of the place and pay rent, you aren't looking for a friend. If they don't meet your screening criteria, simply tell them that.
You're missing the point. I am not trying to be friends. Some people just seem bad, it's that simple. Some people are obviously messy and unorganized. Some people have really bad children. There are lots of potential reasons. Ever been to rural North Carolina? Some people are just...too rural.
Let me give you an example:
People who smoke. I don't think this is a legally protected class, and I would never allow it in the house, but if I have a choice, I don't want you smoking outside either. They still stink when they come inside. I'm not going to say "you are not accepted because you smoke cigarettes".I think I understand what you're saying now. And like I said before, one might just make the legal reasons denying a tenant fit. If for instance a tenant does not fill out a rental application completely, that is a reason for denying them rent. If you get what I'm saying
- Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
I know I can easily advertise that I want X credit score and X income, etc...
That does not change the fact that some people who make six figures, and have an 850 credit score are unpleasant for one reason or another. Of course if I have a direct reason like "your credit score is too low" I will use it, but I can't say "your breath stinks, you didn't bother to take a shower before you showed up, and your kids are monsters".
If this was a more popular area I could simply say "I chose another applicant", but around here it's just too obvious if that isn't true.
- 6yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:
@Mike Roberts You are looking for a tenant that will take good care of the place and pay rent, you aren't looking for a friend. If they don't meet your screening criteria, simply tell them that.
You're missing the point. I am not trying to be friends. Some people just seem bad, it's that simple. Some people are obviously messy and unorganized. Some people have really bad children. There are lots of potential reasons. Ever been to rural North Carolina? Some people are just...too rural.
Let me give you an example:
People who smoke. I don't think this is a legally protected class, and I would never allow it in the house, but if I have a choice, I don't want you smoking outside either. They still stink when they come inside. I'm not going to say "you are not accepted because you smoke cigarettes".That all fits under the first part of they aren't going to take good care of your property.
- Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
And that is exactly what I am talking about. A credit score and income check have absolutely no bearing on how well a person takes care of things. If I get the hint that you don't take good care of things, I don't care if you have the best credit score possible and make more money than me. Another good example is a person's car, if you look at their car and it is dirty, stinky, and full of garbage, chances are their house isn't much different...but I can't tell somebody they don't qualify because their car is a dump.
There simply is no "screening criteria" that can ensure a person will take good care of something. You have to meet them, feel them out, read a person. People skills. Not just text on a document. This is one of the reasons I would never hire a property manager.
I have a friend that makes a lot of money, and I assume has a good credit score. He is also incredibly hard on things, like his own home and truck. I like him as a friend but I would never let him live in my house.
- Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
You need to develop a criteria and if someone meets it, you rent them the property. You don't want to rent to smokers? Then say we don't rent to smokers. We put that in our contract. A lot of people think that means they can't smoke in the house. That's why we make it clear they can't smoke "at all". Smokers are not a protected class. You can't screen out someone because they're gay or they're married or have kids or whatever but there's lots of criteria you can establish. What is imperative is that you apply those standards to all prospects. If you don't, you'll be facing potential issues.
- Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2017 · 22 posts · 9 votes6y
What's your point. Our Gay tenants have been the Best tenants we ever had, not to mention. They were never home, and only improved our property values by the Upkeep n Cleanliness...
- Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 9 votes6y
Originally posted by @John Teachout:
You need to develop a criteria and if someone meets it, you rent them the property.
I guess some people can't read between the lines. Let me be very blunt: If I don't like your kids, they won't live in my house. If I find you rude/obnoxious when we speak, you won't live in my house. If you are a bad racial stereo type, you won't live in my house. If you are just generally weird, dirty, creepy, whatever I decide, you will not live in my house. I cannot post this in my advertisement. Yes, some of this may not be 100% legal, but I seriously, seriously doubt everybody here actually gives every single person the same exact treatment. I don't care if you are a protected class, if you are a bad person, you're not living in my house. I'd rather it sit empty. Conversely, I DO NOT have a hard limit for credit scores and income, and I think that is a dumb way to choose people. Each individual needs to be considered individually as a whole person, not just numbers.
Just because somebody has some number points in a system somewhere does not automatically make them a good tenant, and that is really the only criteria I can post in my ad. The thing about smokers was supposed to be a polite example. I am simply asking how you more politely refuse service to somebody you do not want to deal with. I could just be a complete *** and say "sorry, your qualifications are not strong enough, I'm going to wait for more tenants to apply", but I probably won't.
I am not going to deny anybody simply because they are a "protected class", but just because they are protected, doesn't mean they can't be bad tenants also. It has nothing to do with their race/religion/sex/whatever.
- Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
You have gotten good advice and you are ignoring it. Either find something specific to hang your general feeling on or add those negative qualities to your criteria. Categories such as "demeanor during application process" or "communications with landlord" or whatever. And you don't have to share with the reason they were rejected.
And what you call being an ***hole is perfectly polite and accurate. "sorry, your qualifications aren't strong enough [for this particular apt], we are going to wait for a stronger applicant." I would just use the first part, but that ain't rude...
- Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
To the OP, you've asked for advice, received it and are indicating you're going to do whatever you want anyway. Feel free to follow that path. But before you take on the role of a landlord, make sure you are very familiar with both the federal, state and local fair housing laws. These are full of landmines and you could be violating them completely unawares. While you don't have to provide a reason for a denial (may vary with locale) you need to make sure that you have one and that it's applied across the board. You mentioned "don't like your kids". Well, familial status is a protected class and it would be very easy for an official to draw a connecting line between "don't like their kids" and "don't like kids". Your attitude toward tenant selection could land you in trouble. In principle, I agree with your position, but the realities of leasing a property are different and landlords have lost some of their rights to select tenants. Tread carefully.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
As long as you are not discriminating against a protected class, you can deny someone. Don't like facial or neck tattoos? Deny! Don't like the noisy muffler on their jacked-up Ford F-150? Deny! Don't like that he's a complete bum with a super-model girlfriend? Deny!
You have to be careful if the person is a member of a protected class because they could claim you denied them based on that and not the neck tattoos.
The best policy is to set your standards based on objective, observable criteria and then stick to it. If you have a written policy that you will not rent to smokers - and you apply that to everyone across the board - then you are safe. When you go with your "gut feeling" that someone won't make a good tenant, that indicates you would go with your "gut feeling" that someone would make a good tenant. I can tell you from experience that your gut can be wrong.
Build objective, fact-based criteria. Write it down. Stick with it.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 135 posts · 294 votes6y
Federal fair housing laws only apply if you own more more than three single family homes at a time. This means that if you are a small time landlord you can legally discriminate for any, or no reason whatsoever. Protected class or not. The only real rule that stands in this case is the 1866 civil rights act which disallows denial based on race with no exceptions. I don't recommend that you ever actually do this however, since it makes you look like a giant $#*&. However since you said you don't exactly care if its 100% legal or not then you are always free to do whatever you want, you just have to be prepared to suffer the legal consequences when someone takes offense.
NOTE: Some state or local governments have fair housing laws that are more strict than federal, so do your research.
- Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
People who smoke. I don't think this is a legally protected class, and I would never allow it in the house, but if I have a choice, I don't want you smoking outside either. They still stink when they come inside. I'm not going to say "you are not accepted because you smoke cigarettes".
This is a pretty interesting response, given your recent posts on this thread.
- 6yPat LulewiczBusiness MemberRealtor · Raleigh NC and Greensboro, NC · Member since 2019 · 391 posts · 392 votes
If you didn't like them when you met them and got an awful vibe from the start, why did you allow them to apply in the first place? If you do paper applications and run the credit/background checks yourself, before they pay you an application fee (which can be a good chunk of someone's monthly income in a rural location), stop the process. Alternatively, if you do all-electronic applications, simply don't provide them the website for application and don't make them waste their time, hope and (most importantly) money if you've already ruled them out from the start. I think doing the above is much more rude (and thoughtless) than telling someone you don't like them.
- Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
And that is exactly what I am talking about. A credit score and income check have absolutely no bearing on how well a person takes care of things. If I get the hint that you don't take good care of things, I don't care if you have the best credit score possible and make more money than me. Another good example is a person's car, if you look at their car and it is dirty, stinky, and full of garbage, chances are their house isn't much different...but I can't tell somebody they don't qualify because their car is a dump.
There simply is no "screening criteria" that can ensure a person will take good care of something. You have to meet them, feel them out, read a person. People skills. Not just text on a document. This is one of the reasons I would never hire a property manager.
I have a friend that makes a lot of money, and I assume has a good credit score. He is also incredibly hard on things, like his own home and truck. I like him as a friend but I would never let him live in my house.
That one is easy. At the interview you tell them one of the requirements is for the tenant to properly maintain the rental and that you will do a walk through with them of the place they currently live in.
Of course, You get to decide what is "proper". - Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mike Roberts:
Just because somebody has some number points in a system somewhere does not automatically make them a good tenant, and that is really the only criteria I can post in my ad. The thing about smokers was supposed to be a polite example. I am simply asking how you more politely refuse service to somebody you do not want to deal with. I could just be a complete *** and say "sorry, your qualifications are not strong enough, I'm going to wait for more tenants to apply", but I probably won't.
I am not going to deny anybody simply because they are a "protected class", but just because they are protected, doesn't mean they can't be bad tenants also. It has nothing to do with their race/religion/sex/whatever.
I'll be blunt, too. It sounds like you are trying to deny a protected class. Everyone here has been giving good advice, but you keep saying you have this special sauce decoder that lets you know when a tenant is not suitable for you.
The bottom line is this is your property and you can rent it however you choose. However, if you break housing laws, be prepared to one day answer for it. Telling a judge that you denied someone with adequate credit, adequate income, and adequate everything else because you "did not like their kids" or that you didn't like "the way they look" is going to result in a fine. Probably a hefty one.
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