Deposit questions for a tenant that moved out.
Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes
Deposit questions for a tenant that moved out.
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Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 109 posts · 63 votes
6yI agree with @Erik W., this will vary by state. In my state of MA, wrongly withholding any of the tenant's deposit can expose you to treble damages, so landlords either don't bother with the deposit or they err on the side of caution. The fact that the keys were returned to you though and that you accepted them likely evidences the termination of his tenancy regardless of what the lease says.
As far as cleaning fees, your lease may address this. In my experience the standard is usually leaving the unit "broom clean," as in the tenant is not responsible for making your unit fully market-ready for the next tenant. You're generally expecting to eat the cost for shampooing or replacing old carpets, freshly paint the walls, etc. I would typically charge if there is either trash left behind or if the place is filthy.
As for the dishwasher and in my personal opinion, it doesn't really sound like you have sufficient grounds to withhold any of his deposit here. Do you have evidence that he would have or should have known that it was broken/leaking?
31 Replies
- Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
@Willie Cedillo, hi and welcome to BP!
This is going to vary state by state. In Missouri, the statute for security deposits (RSMO 535.300) says this:
"Within thirty days after the date of termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall:"
1) Return the full amount of the security deposit; or
(2) Furnish to the tenant a written itemized list of the damages for which the security deposit or any portion thereof is withheld, along with the balance of the security deposit. The landlord shall have complied with this subsection by mailing such statement and any payment to the last known address of the tenant."
The clock starts ticking once the tenancy terminates. If a tenant is still there past the end date, they still have a legal tenancy in hold-over status. During hold-over, I may start billing the tenant double the per diem rent rate. The tenancy is held until they return the premises to me and/or a properly obtained and executed writ of possession from a judge sets them out on the curb.
Your state laws may vary. Know your laws. If you are unsure, seek competent legal counsel. In my state, a tenant may recover double the amount of security deposit wrongly withheld, so you don't want to guess what's correct and be wrong.
- Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 109 posts · 63 votes6y
I agree with @Erik W., this will vary by state. In my state of MA, wrongly withholding any of the tenant's deposit can expose you to treble damages, so landlords either don't bother with the deposit or they err on the side of caution. The fact that the keys were returned to you though and that you accepted them likely evidences the termination of his tenancy regardless of what the lease says.
As far as cleaning fees, your lease may address this. In my experience the standard is usually leaving the unit "broom clean," as in the tenant is not responsible for making your unit fully market-ready for the next tenant. You're generally expecting to eat the cost for shampooing or replacing old carpets, freshly paint the walls, etc. I would typically charge if there is either trash left behind or if the place is filthy.
As for the dishwasher and in my personal opinion, it doesn't really sound like you have sufficient grounds to withhold any of his deposit here. Do you have evidence that he would have or should have known that it was broken/leaking?
- Property Manager · Henderson, NV · Member since 2018 · 501 posts · 317 votes6y
What does it say in the lease regarding a tenants responsibility with cleaning upon move out? I would follow the lease. In regards to the dishwasher leak, was there any indication on the inventory and condition form (when tenant moved in) that there was an issue with the floor or dishwasher? If not, I would consider holding the tenant responsible.
- 6yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votesBased on the fact that they handed you keys and vacated, I would consider the clock ticking at that date...... is it possible that you could start it at the end of Feb?....maybe but why take that chance?....not worth it.... Typical standard is "broom clean".....no spotless but in pretty decent condition. If you have to do a lot of cleaning, then charge for it but be reasonable. Dishwasher..... unless the damage is very evident and pretty bad and its VERY evident that if the tenant had notified you earlier the damage would have been more limited,, the court will likely side with the tenant if they fight it...... proving the tenant was negligent in not notifying you is a tough thing to do.... up to you if you want to fight that battle. Some advice I've gotten for those "gray" areas on deductions...... if its gray, charge for it, but be reasonable..... if they fight it, then push back a little with your justification for the charge, but don't make it a battle....if they keep pushing hard, let it go and move on....not worth the fight unless you are talking big $$
- Member since 2019 · 215 posts · 122 votes6y
If a tenant attempts to return keys midlease I refuse to accept them. We have sublease options written into our lease to address someone wanting to leave early. A property owner shouldn't be responsible for the additional costs if they tenant feels like breaking there lease. The majority of tenants will finish out the lease or move to sublet. Can't blame them for trying.
Your on the clock as the the 8th and most state laws require the tenants February rent be prorated to reflect that.
For the water damage I would hold the tenant responsible for any deferred maintenance that damaged the property. I assume your lease outlines the tenants responsibilities for caring for the property. If they had notified you when water first became visible damage to the floor would have most likely been avoided. Hopefully its something like LVP and you have some spare planks on hand to reduce the cost.
- Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 729 posts · 596 votes6y
@Willie Cedillo
if his rent goes through the end of the month, means you have 20 days to get the house cleaned, fixed and rented all on his dime. but if it is rented before end of the month, you should refund remaining rent. as for dw, sounds like your issue to fix.
- Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2019 · 512 posts · 301 votes6y
@Willie Cedillo imo, run the dishwasher. If the leak was obvious, at fault. If it’s not, lean towards not at fault. I’d really have to asses the damage but if the floor buckled and buckled for a while in visible areas, he neglected to tell you and who knows how long the leaks been there. Don’t fall in love with your tenants too quick and try to be the nice guy. Run your business, like a business
NOLO usually can tell you how much time max you have to return a deposit. Here it’s 45. My first time as a tenant it took them about 90. I didn’t make any formal complaint or anything but i was annoyed
- Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Patrick M Nichols I'm not sure if it counts as evidence but about 5-6 Planks of the bamboo flooring is going to have to be replaced. Two of them (the closest to the dishwasher) popped up and it's extremely visible, you would trip over the area. The couple others will be replaced because you see a big circle wet spot reaching them.
Thank you for your response!
- Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Michael Peters It's bamboo flooring but we do have some extra planks that'll help with the cost. Two of the planks is popped up and it's very visible. You would trip over the area if you're not looking down.
- Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Jonathan W. I did this and it's not obvious in a way that it affects it in the moment. I have some bamboo planks to replace because they where clearly affected by water. I haven't ripped them out yet but I was wondering what everyone's opinion would be on tenant's being at fault with neglecting to tell the landlord something is wrong.
- Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Ned J. The "Broom Clean" concept is new to me but a couple people here already mentioned it so I really appreciate that! He was clean enough for me not to charge for it. The previous tenant left a ton of stuff in closets and in the fridge. It was my first time I stopped doing a ton of work myself and I hired a cleaning company and I did hold some rent from her but she understood. This is not the case with this tenant. He forgot some dishes but other than that the place is clean and empty.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
@Willie Cedillo the clock starts upon termination of the lease, not the day they hand you the keys. If he is responsible for rent through the month of February, then you terminate the lease at the end of February and then start the clock.
However, you have a legal obligation to try and find a new tenant as quickly as possible and minimize the financial impact on the departing tenant. This means you should clean it up and start advertising. If you find someone to move in before the end of February, your old tenant could / should get a prorated portion of their rent back. That's the legal, fair thing to do.
Can you split the cleaning costs? Sure. You can do the cleaning for free and buy the guy a car if you want. But why would you split the cost or give him a break if he left it dirty? I recommend you tighten your standards of a "good" tenant. If he failed to clean something and it costs you time or money to correct, he should be charged for it. If he's a really good tenant and they forget to clean the oven or something small, I'll absorb the cost. I don't cut them slack if spending more than $50 - $60. You don't have to feel guilty about it. The agreement says they will return it to you in the same condition it was received so that should be your expectation.
As for the dishwasher, you should charge him if the damage would have been discovered by an ordinary tenant. Your renters should be held responsible for abuse and neglect, and this would fall under neglect because he failed to report and give you the opportunity to prevent further damage. This is another example of how he's not a "really good" tenant, but probably a "pretty good" tenant. Up your standards!
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Nathan Gesner Thank you for your response.
I started in 2015 renting a house to a co-worker of mine and it went horribly as you might imagine. Being a landlord is still a work in progress for me. I read as much as possible and get familiar with laws but I really appreciate this comment because it has been a work in progress to up my standards on renters.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
My favorite source for a beginner is Every Landlord's Legal Guide by NOLO. It's a big book full of practical advice from marketing, screening, leases, collecting rent, etc. It is written by attorneys and includes the law, not just opinion. It has links to your state laws so you can (and should) read them for yourself but it also includes summaries of important laws like how to handle security deposits or evict tenants for failure to pay rent. It also includes common forms that you can edit and use.
Their web site is a free resource with links to your state law but I highly recommend the book for some of the practical advice they provide.The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 109 posts · 63 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
@Willie Cedillo the clock starts upon termination of the lease, not the day they hand you the keys. If he is responsible for rent through the month of February, then you terminate the lease at the end of February and then start the clock.
This actually is 100% not true in my state, so check the local laws. Surrendering of keys in MA and acceptance of them by the landlord (although not the law in every state) evidences the end of the tenancy. It does not prorate the rent, but it starts the clock. Not following this would give a housing court judge grounds to award the tenant treble (triple) damages.
- 6yBernie NeyerPro MemberInvestor · Chanute, KS · Member since 2016 · 160 posts · 60 votes
@Willie Cedillo
Our lease indicates they must give one calendar months notice or their deposit is forfeited. We also have charges for hold overs, but I tell them if we haven't filled it by their stated move out date, we'll let them take an extra day or two to make sure it is really clean.
Now, when we receive written notice of their intent to vacate the premises, we give them an extensive cleaning check list so they know what needs to be cleaned and in some cases how to clean. It bolsters our keeping the deposit if needed.
As for the leaking dish washer, if it is yours, and wasn't the result of damage, the cost could be on you. We had an instance where we aquired a property with a working dishwasher and rented it for nearly a decade. Well, when the long term tenant moved, we found the discharge hose had been leaking behind the cabinets. The tenant was wholly unaware of the situation.
We had to take out the cabinets, replace the subfloor, in part, and I replaced the dishwasher for good measure. Sometimes, you're just accountable for things.
- Realtor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 21 votes6y
@Willie Cedillo I didn’t read what state you’re in but in California you have 21 days to get it in either his money back with an itemized invoice of what you charge them for if you don’t need that deadline he can take you to small claims court and get all of his deposit back
- Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 6 votes6y
@Kelly Pierce hi Kelly thanks for the response. I’m in Texas and I don’t think I’ve mentioned that anywhere on here.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Patrick M Nichols:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
@Willie Cedillo the clock starts upon termination of the lease, not the day they hand you the keys. If he is responsible for rent through the month of February, then you terminate the lease at the end of February and then start the clock.
This actually is 100% not true in my state, so check the local laws. Surrendering of keys in MA and acceptance of them by the landlord (although not the law in every state) evidences the end of the tenancy. It does not prorate the rent, but it starts the clock. Not following this would give a housing court judge grounds to award the tenant treble (triple) damages.
I'm not an expert on every state but what you're saying doesn't make sense. According to you, the lease terminates when the tenant hands in their keys. If that's true, a tenant could submit their 30-day notice on March 1, meaning they are responsible for rent through the month of March, but then they could hand you the keys on March 2 and be free of any obligation for March rent. Here's what the MA law says:
(g) fail to return to the tenant the security deposit or balance thereof to which the tenant is entitled after deducting any sums in accordance with M.G.L. c. 186, § 15B, together with interest, within thirty days after termination of occupancy under a tenancy-at-will agreement or the end of the tenancy as specified in a valid written rental agreement;The thirty days starts at the point of termination based on their notice given or the termination point in a written rental agreement. I don't see anything in the law that says they're excused from this requirement if they turn their keys in early.
I would love to see something in writing to support this.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 109 posts · 63 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Patrick M Nichols:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
@Willie Cedillo the clock starts upon termination of the lease, not the day they hand you the keys. If he is responsible for rent through the month of February, then you terminate the lease at the end of February and then start the clock.
This actually is 100% not true in my state, so check the local laws. Surrendering of keys in MA and acceptance of them by the landlord (although not the law in every state) evidences the end of the tenancy. It does not prorate the rent, but it starts the clock. Not following this would give a housing court judge grounds to award the tenant treble (triple) damages.
I'm not an expert on every state but what you're saying doesn't make sense. According to you, the lease terminates when the tenant hands in their keys. If that's true, a tenant could submit their 30-day notice on March 1, meaning they are responsible for rent through the month of March, but then they could hand you the keys on March 2 and be free of any obligation for March rent. Here's what the MA law says:
(g) fail to return to the tenant the security deposit or balance thereof to which the tenant is entitled after deducting any sums in accordance with M.G.L. c. 186, § 15B, together with interest, within thirty days after termination of occupancy under a tenancy-at-will agreement or the end of the tenancy as specified in a valid written rental agreement;The thirty days starts at the point of termination based on their notice given or the termination point in a written rental agreement. I don't see anything in the law that says they're excused from this requirement if they turn their keys in early.
I would love to see something in writing to support this.
I'm not really following your interpretation. There are two issues:
1. Tenant owes rent through the end of the written term of the lease, but landlord must mitigate their damages (i.e., find a new tenant).
2. The clock starts for the return of the deposit as soon as the landlord accepts the surrender of the keys. - Attorney · Boston, MA · Member since 2018 · 109 posts · 63 votes6y
Originally posted by @Willie Cedillo:
@Patrick M Nichols I'm not sure if it counts as evidence but about 5-6 Planks of the bamboo flooring is going to have to be replaced. Two of them (the closest to the dishwasher) popped up and it's extremely visible, you would trip over the area. The couple others will be replaced because you see a big circle wet spot reaching them.
Thank you for your response!
It might make sense for you to run it by your tenant and take the temperature of the situation. If he agrees to the charges (or maybe even split them), then you are probably on solid ground. It is tough to know without seeing the damage and understanding the surrounding facts of the tenancy.
- Investor · SC NC, VA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 756 votes6y
We require tenants to turn the apartment back to us the same way they got it. Cleaning and repairs to make that happen all come out of the deposit. Also, I would hold back the amount equal to the rent they had committed to.
- 6yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votesI guess the difference is vacating the premise vs terminating the lease..... The tenant lease doesn't terminate until the end of the month...... they can hand you the keys and move out so it's vacant..... but the legal lease is still in place until the end of the month. If they hand you the keys, they have officially vacated the premise..... I can come and go as a please, do work etc... the tenant doesn't have access anymore........ I would think the clock to get the deposit back would start then........ if you want to be the type of landlord that drags it out as long as possible to hold onto that $$, then start the clock at the end of the month....... don't see the point. You have possession of the property, the tenant has no access.... you can do all the inspection you need to see what you need to deduct etc..... why drag it out even further?
- Property Manager · Castro Valley, CA · Member since 2016 · 212 posts · 110 votes6y
This is a business you are running. You should standardize your expectations and communicate those. How clean was the rental supposed to be left in? I oversee maintenance and turnovers for a number of property owners and some have specific standards. Those standards get clearly communicated to the resident.
We also have a deep clean done to make the place show well after any repairs or upgrades that is NOT a past tenant's responsibility.
If you don't know what level it should be cleaned at, how would the tenant?
I would have it cleaned and fix the water damage and dishwasher.
Do inspections at a minimum annually and look for problems like water leaks.Come up with clear expectations of what YOU want cleaning-wise and communicate that clearly in both the lease and move-out paperwork so the tenant can meet your expectations.
If this guy moved out early, I would hold back the rent that was due to the end of the lease and nothing else unless you place someone sooner.
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